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Need help with newly purchased 21ft commander looses control

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Beyond Hell Crew
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I seen one of the comp jet guys have fins on the ride plate. Maybe this would help?

Dan'l
 

spectra3279

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Sounds like the old owner should go out in it with him. Maybe the current owner is doing something wrong and the old owner can show him how to do it

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Matt Dee

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I had a ultra with an insert pump that was unpredictable as hell, mine pulled mostly to the left and got worse when you let off the gas. Hopefully you find something adjusting the ride plate, mine was just because the insert set up sucked!!
Thanks for your input i hope all goes well sunday i will adjust ride plate and wish for the best ill post what happens .
 

RACER J

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Thanks for your input i hope all goes well sunday i will adjust ride plate and wish for the best ill post what happens .
Just keep in mind, lowering the ride plate might make the situation worse by lifting the tail and pushing the nose down. Could end up with more of a bow hunt and less of the rear in the water making it easier to wash out on you!!
 

Matt Dee

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Just keep in mind, lowering the ride plate might make the situation worse by lifting the tail and pushing the nose down. Could end up with more of a bow hunt and less of the rear in the water making it easier to wash out on you!!
I will be waiting for it heheh nobody go to castaic sunday the commander is gonna be out on the water
 

lantz

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I've got a 93 21 foot open bow commander, with a 454 (not 502), the insert JE pump (I think) and it is a pig in the water. I can spin it if i work at it. I've got two batteries on one side. It is a rough ass ride in anything rougher than glass. But, it drives straight as an arrow regardless of where the diverter is set, or the steering wheel is turned or what RPM I am at. I know crap about how to really set up a boat or how adjusting the ride plate, adding skegs, etc. might affect ones ability to control the boat. I can't imagine my boat ever acting like what was described above. I've had reverse bucket cables snap at the wrong time, diverter lines blow out, steering cable lock up, but the boat always behaved predictably. In my head this sounds like what people who race boats at stupid speeds have to deal with, not what rec. drivers in family boats should ever expect.
 

Matt Dee

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I've got a 93 21 foot open bow commander, with a 454 (not 502), the insert JE pump (I think) and it is a pig in the water. I can spin it if i work at it. I've got two batteries on one side. It is a rough ass ride in anything rougher than glass. But, it drives straight as an arrow regardless of where the diverter is set, or the steering wheel is turned or what RPM I am at. I know crap about how to really set up a boat or how adjusting the ride plate, adding skegs, etc. might affect ones ability to control the boat. I can't imagine my boat ever acting like what was described above. I've had reverse bucket cables snap at the wrong time, diverter lines blow out, steering cable lock up, but the boat always behaved predictably. In my head this sounds like what people who race boats at stupid speeds have to deal with, not what rec. drivers in family boats should ever expect.
Im hopeful i will eventually dial it down thanks for your input do u have pics of your pump setup maybe i can compare a few things
 

J 2

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I haven't read about anyone suggesting thrust height. Rule of thumb on ride plate is 2 degrees up compared to bottom of boat. Harbor Freight has a dial gauge for a few dollars. Bottom of place diverter should be about 3/4 to 1 inch above plate. The 1st pic you posted thrust looks really high to me. If you try a mini droop it will be closer. With the thrust high & the plate high seems like you're getting the boat in a awkward position pointing the nose up causing the wash out spin. In any case this is bad/dangerous. Do what you need to do to fix it.

Fins on the intake are part of the intake. New intake needed to add. I have seen some custom ride plates with 1 inch fins, might help some. 1 inch right angle aluminum mounted to the bottom then file the edges for water flow. Not perfect but you're not trying for every ounce of speed you can get, just a fun safe ride.
 

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Matt Dee

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I haven't read about anyone suggesting thrust height. Rule of thumb on ride plate is 2 degrees up compared to bottom of boat. Harbor Freight has a dial gauge for a few dollars. Bottom of place diverter should be about 3/4 to 1 inch above plate. The 1st pic you posted thrust looks really high to me. If you try a mini droop it will be closer. With the thrust high & the plate high seems like you're getting the boat in a awkward position pointing the nose up causing the wash out spin. In any case this is bad/dangerous. Do what you need to do to fix it.

Fins on the intake are part of the intake. New intake needed to add. I have seen some custom ride plates with 1 inch fins, might help some. 1 inch right angle aluminum mounted to the bottom then file the edges for water flow. Not perfect but you're not trying for every ounce of speed you can get, just a fun safe ride.
Thanks for the help very informative i did adjust ride plate angle i lowered it , but will look into everything you said. Ride plate angle helped a ton i have more control but i still feel the boat pull when in a bit more rough water i went up to about 40mph for a short time felt better but not near safe enough to push the boat more i constantly have to correct by counter steering i just feel it isnt right .
 

Matt Dee

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Thats the before and after of the ride plate.
Helped quite a bit. I had a question are these place diverters adjustable i don’t see any place for adjustments and how much play in the pump is ok left to right i can slightly move the pump side to side without seeing the steering wheel move maybe half an inch.
 

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t&y

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Interesting. Replacing the bushings in the place diverter is not hard. That might be giving you a little slop. You can get all those replacement parts pretty quick. If you are local to O.C. their shop is in La Habra not far of Imperial Hwy. Good mom and pop burger joint down the street too. But you need to figure out if it's the entire unit moving, or just the nozzle.

I'd try holding the pump between your legs so it doesn't move, and have someone turn the wheel. There shouldn't much if any play there. You might have something a little loose in the steering cable which could account for your sloppy feel while under power.

My Carrera Jet required a hand on the wheel at all times, but it was never a fight. What you are describing sounds to me like some worn parts. Not a major issue, but one that needs to be taken care of. Oh, and I'm not a boat mechanic, but I did sleep at the holiday in last night.:D
 

old rigger

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I haven't read about anyone suggesting thrust height. Rule of thumb on ride plate is 2 degrees up compared to bottom of boat. Harbor Freight has a dial gauge for a few dollars. Bottom of place diverter should be about 3/4 to 1 inch above plate. The 1st pic you posted thrust looks really high to me. If you try a mini droop it will be closer. With the thrust high & the plate high seems like you're getting the boat in a awkward position pointing the nose up causing the wash out spin. In any case this is bad/dangerous. Do what you need to do to fix it.

Fins on the intake are part of the intake. New intake needed to add. I have seen some custom ride plates with 1 inch fins, might help some. 1 inch right angle aluminum mounted to the bottom then file the edges for water flow. Not perfect but you're not trying for every ounce of speed you can get, just a fun safe ride.

The 2 degree topic was already mentioned on page one and again, E pumps do not have fins on the intake.

This boat, and reading the previous owners comments on how to learn to drive it scares the shit outta me, needs to be taken back to it's stock set up concerning the plate and diverter and then go from there to try to figure out whats wrong. In fact I'd remove the diverter and see how it handles with the stock nozzle, then go back with the diverter. Any roost higher than 6 feet is just pissing in the wind and might make a boat do funny dangerous things on the top end.

A droop is the last thing this boat needs.

It could be as simple as the E pump insert was installed improperly or off a few degrees prior to the molds being gelled, which can't be fixed.

I've never been in a jet that had the characteristics described by some in this thread and if I did experience them, I'd never get back in the boat. lol

Oh, by the way, that little fin that hangs down and came stock with all pumps doesn't do a god damn thing. It's there to comply with the insurance companies. Nothing more.
 

J 2

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The 2 degree topic was already mentioned on page one and again, E pumps do not have fins on the intake.

This boat, and reading the previous owners comments on how to learn to drive it scares the shit outta me, needs to be taken back to it's stock set up concerning the plate and diverter and then go from there to try to figure out whats wrong. In fact I'd remove the diverter and see how it handles with the stock nozzle, then go back with the diverter. Any roost higher than 6 feet is just pissing in the wind and might make a boat do funny dangerous things on the top end.

A droop is the last thing this boat needs.

It could be as simple as the E pump insert was installed improperly or off a few degrees prior to the molds being gelled, which can't be fixed.

I've never been in a jet that had the characteristics described by some in this thread and if I did experience them, I'd never get back in the boat. lol

Oh, by the way, that little fin that hangs down and came stock with all pumps doesn't do a god damn thing. It's there to comply with the insurance companies. Nothing more.

I agree with everything you stated. I've read your knowledge in the past and improved my stuff by listening. I agree with no full droop, my thoughts on the mini droop was to get the thrust lower, but not to low. Where it is now when you push the diverter up this boat is dancing on the very back, I was looking at the separation. BTW what I see in my mind doesn't always transfer to words, just ask my golf coach. Maybe a bowl extension to move the thrust back would help. I've experimented with all of these in different boats in the past to find it's sweet spot. My Rogers liked the mini droop, full droop scary. My Daytona likes both bowl extension or full droop, I was advised the bowl extension looked funny so I ended up with the traditional droop.

You're also right about the handing characteristics, I wouldn't go for a ride either. The push to the right or left, I don't remember which, is scary. If you leave the diverter straight it seems to me you would get a feel for a stock nozzle that doesn't adjust. I want to know what's causing it to turn.

The owner mentioned Castaic. I live in Santa Clarita and am more than willing to talk about it or maybe even see it to take a 1st hand look.
 

NicPaus

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I am supposed to be out this weekend along with friend who bought the one I posted pictures of. Will get more pics of pump and ride plate and see if I can take it for a test drive. See how it does over 40 where prior owner said it starts getting squirrelly. My other buddy has same boat but a IO was out on it 2 weekend ago no issues.
 

old rigger

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I agree with everything you stated. I've read your knowledge in the past and improved my stuff by listening. I agree with no full droop, my thoughts on the mini droop was to get the thrust lower, but not to low. Where it is now when you push the diverter up this boat is dancing on the very back, I was looking at the separation. BTW what I see in my mind doesn't always transfer to words, just ask my golf coach. Maybe a bowl extension to move the thrust back would help. I've experimented with all of these in different boats in the past to find it's sweet spot. My Rogers liked the mini droop, full droop scary. My Daytona likes both bowl extension or full droop, I was advised the bowl extension looked funny so I ended up with the traditional droop.

You're also right about the handing characteristics, I wouldn't go for a ride either. The push to the right or left, I don't remember which, is scary. If you leave the diverter straight it seems to me you would get a feel for a stock nozzle that doesn't adjust. I want to know what's causing it to turn.

The owner mentioned Castaic. I live in Santa Clarita and am more than willing to talk about it or maybe even see it to take a 1st hand look.

For me, I’d put it back to stock if I could and see what the thing does. If he has access to a stock nozzle that’d be fantastic. Start at zero and make adjustments from there. The only thing he can’t easily replicate would be the stock original engine. This guy’s a master mechanic, so this should already be in his dna.

It means less than nothing now but Roger wasn’t a big fan of droops on his hulls.

Hopefully he’ll take you up on your generous offer.
 

J 2

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I am supposed to be out this weekend along with friend who bought the one I posted pictures of. Will get more pics of pump and ride plate and see if I can take it for a test drive. See how it does over 40 where prior owner said it starts getting squirrelly. My other buddy has same boat but a IO was out on it 2 weekend ago no issues.

Looks like it would be simple to take the ride plate off for a test run to see if it reacts differently.
 

RACER J

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The 2 degree topic was already mentioned on page one and again, E pumps do not have fins on the intake.

This boat, and reading the previous owners comments on how to learn to drive it scares the shit outta me, needs to be taken back to it's stock set up concerning the plate and diverter and then go from there to try to figure out whats wrong. In fact I'd remove the diverter and see how it handles with the stock nozzle, then go back with the diverter. Any roost higher than 6 feet is just pissing in the wind and might make a boat do funny dangerous things on the top end.

A droop is the last thing this boat needs.

It could be as simple as the E pump insert was installed improperly or off a few degrees prior to the molds being gelled, which can't be fixed.

I've never been in a jet that had the characteristics described by some in this thread and if I did experience them, I'd never get back in the boat. lol

Oh, by the way, that little fin that hangs down and came stock with all pumps doesn't do a god damn thing. It's there to comply with the insurance companies. Nothing more.
The issue I had with my ultra was as you mentioned, insert was installed crooked. Ran 100% better after I fixed it.
 

old rigger

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The issue I had with my ultra was as you mentioned, insert was installed crooked. Ran 100% better after I fixed it.

What did you do to fix that?? As you know, probably better than me because I’ve never fixed one, that’s a huge screw up. I can’t even imagine.
 

warpt71

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Thats the before and after of the ride plate.
Helped quite a bit. I had a question are these place diverters adjustable i don’t see any place for adjustments and how much play in the pump is ok left to right i can slightly move the pump side to side without seeing the steering wheel move maybe half an inch.

That ride plate still looks high to me......
 

ibdagimp

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It almost seems like the bowl is not installed properly, they do have a light pitch to the mating surfaces. May not be the case but just a suggestion that i havent read yet.

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Matt Dee

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The issue I had with my ultra was as you mentioned, insert was installed crooked. Ran 100% better after I fixed it.[/QUOTE

What kind of pump did u put in it and what should i measure in order to find out if thats the case with this boat ?
 

Matt Dee

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Do i pretty much need to measure and make sure the pump inserted is centered at the rear of boat both top and bottom ?
 

t&y

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Do i pretty much need to measure and make sure the pump inserted is centered at the rear of boat both top and bottom ?
I wouldn't get that crazy. It's a 2001. I figure someone has driven this boat a ton over the years and the prior owner basically said it's fine, you just have to get used to driving it. I would guess with some tweaking on the pump it will be fine without going through the whole remove re install deal. Get the Ride plate thing squared away and go from there. Just my .02c's
 

RACER J

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I wouldn't get that crazy. It's a 2001. I figure someone has driven this boat a ton over the years and the prior owner basically said it's fine, you just have to get used to driving it. I would guess with some tweaking on the pump it will be fine without going through the whole remove re install deal. Get the Ride plate thing squared away and go from there. Just my .02c's
I agree with most of that, try everything possible to fix it before going to the extreme of installing a standard intake.
As far as age of boat goes, mine was a 96' and was looking for a place to crash even with everything set up correctly. Installed the new intake and nothing else and it was a completely different boat!!
 

RACER J

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I put a dominator pump in mine. Go underneath the boat starting in the middle and measure between the strakes and mark the center of the hull in several spots all the way to the transom. Tape a string line at the front and pull to the rear finding the average of all the mark's. Then measure and look at the opening and see what you get. Mine was pretty obvious it was off.
If that doesn't make sense, PM me and I'll give you my number and explain it.
 

old rigger

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As far as age of boat goes, mine was a 96' and was looking for a place to crash even with everything set up correctly.

Sorry man but I laughed out loud when I read this. That's one of the greatest lines I've read on this site.
Glad you got it fixed.

Jets should be effortless to drive from the minute you climb in one.
 

Brian

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It needs fins put on each side of the ride plate. I've done it at my shop several times.
 

jetboatperformance

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Have encountered this on a few hulls over the years , one full grown Apache day cruiser which would do a U turn if you just glanced away , didn't belive it till I took it to the lake and drove it , My FIL had a home built Deep V he converted to a jet that would do the same tried everything and never could absolutely trust them , as Rich said start back at zero loose the droop and start testing with changes made in "baby steps" and yes skid fins on the ride plate could help ,call if We can help Tom
 

Cole Canadian

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Hi Matt, I can sympathize with your issue, I purchased my first jet boat 5yrs ago and had basically the same issue, at 45mph with the diverter fully raised and mash down on the throttle the boat came fully out of the water turned sideways and hit hard. There were six adults in the boat......my wife told me to take her back to the dock and and she would take another ride when when the issue was fixed. I am not afraid to call people who make a living with their fast toys and after many conversations and and research along with my own knowledge of fast stern drives your issue is pretty much the same as the one I experienced. Number 1 - a place diverter is NOT a power trim. Power trims are on outboards and stern drives. when your pump was originally configured to your hull it gives the bow a certain amount of lift, the ride plate adjusts the the bow /hull to maximize planing efficiency. With the diverter in full down position your boat should be easily controllable - your ride plate is WAY to high. Start out with adjusting it 2-4dgr above hull line and make yourself a bunch of 3/16 aluminium shims and adjust the plate down until the boat performs nicely without lifting the diverter. ( this will take finding calm water and a lot of trips to the trailer, 3/16 is a lot of adjustment so don't put more than 1 at a time in) Having a little bit of bow pressure is not a bad thing with a place diverter but too much can be disastrous!!! I am wondering why a droop snoot was not installed when the diverter was put on? you have to remember that when you raise the diverter you are loosing some of you steering leverage by pointing the water upwards and the boat will turn sharper. There should be limit adjustment on tour diverter ram and should be set to the lowest possible angle of lift when fully extended and lengthened in 1/8 increments until the boat starts to get unstable at top end then decrease it 1/8in. This will give you the biggest roost available while still maintaining control of your boat too much never ends well. You will have to take a lot of trial and time to get it right but it will be worth it in the end. I can still get ours to jump out of the water if I want it to... the difference is that I'm the one controlling it. If you want to look at the picture of the Cole Skier in the classifieds there is a picture of the back of it showing the jet and the shims. Can't remember exactly but I think I have mine set level or 2 degrees down. A lot of these adjustments will also depend on how much HP your push-shin. Hope this helps with your issue.
 
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