Need HVAC advice

[Outnumbered]

Need advice if I should have any service done on my units. Bought the house and moved in (new) in 5/2004. I have never had the units checked or serviced. It is a Carrier dual split system, gas horizontal air handlers in the attic and R-22 condensers on the side of the house. Units work great but the condensers are getting noisy. Clunking on and off and hum pretty good while running. I was talking to a guy that does some work for me on rentals and said he will come out and check them for $70 and that they probably need a 1-2 lbs of R-22 at $95/lb. He also said that these units are good for about 10 years out here and will likely not last too many more years. Does this sound right? Is service necessary or should I just run them until they die?

Any other advice?

Thanks:thumbsup

 

[hallett21]

Paging river bound

 

[Andy B.]

I had that unit on my house in Phoenix, those are good units should last longer than 10 years. Doesn't sound right...

 

[Motor Boater]

I have my units serviced every year and Ive never had to replace one. The house Im in now was built in 1996...we are still on the original unit. I don't know shit about home AC systems...does the freon lubricate the pump like in a car? SO if your low on freon its not getting the lubrication it needs??

 

[Outnumbered]

I have my units serviced every year and Ive never had to replace one. The house Im in now was built in 1996...we are still on the original unit. I don't know shit about home AC systems...does the freon lubricate the pump like in a car? SO if your low on freon its not getting the lubrication it needs??

From what he has told me, many of the older units were much better built and last longer. Apparently, quality is not what it used to be with Carrier.

 

[dezertrider]

They should last a long time if taken care of. They usually start getting noisy for many reasons and can run along time like that. If they are low on charge or over charged you reducing there life span quickly. Have a good AC contractor check them out, They need to check several measurements before determining if they are low on charge. I would call sooner the later cause the day it will die will be the hottest and they may tell you two weeks for service

Plan on spending 3-600 to get it repaired and running correctly. Thats cheap compared to the pain of no AC on a Hot day. Most people stay in hotels when this happens and spend at least $200 on that

 

[Outnumbered]

They should last a long time if taken care of. They usually start getting noisy for many reasons and can run along time like that. If they are low on charge or over charged you reducing there life span quickly. Have a good AC contractor check them out, They need to check several measurements before determining if they are low on charge. I would call sooner the later cause the day it will die will be the hottest and they may tell you two weeks for service

Plan on spending 3-600 to get it repaired and running correctly. Thats cheap compared to the pain of no AC on a Hot day. Most people stay in hotels when this happens and spend at least $200 on that

Thanks. So they can loose charge even if they are not visibly leaking?

 

[dezertrider]

I have my units serviced every year and Ive never had to replace one. The house Im in now was built in 1996...we are still on the original unit. I don't know shit about home AC systems...does the freon lubricate the pump like in a car? SO if your low on freon its not getting the lubrication it needs??

the compressors are lubricated with oil that is always traveling through the system. If its low on charge the oil gets stuck in the indoor coil running the compressor low. This condition also overheats the compressor that turns the oil and freon acidic causing the electrical windings on the motor to short out.

 

[Riverbound]

What dezertrider said

 

[dezertrider]

Thanks. So they can loose charge even if they are not visibly leaking?

Overtime SMALL amounts of freon leak out of the access caps on the outdoor unit. Maybe only a couple of ounces a year. Over 10 years you could be 1-2 lbs low on freon and this will cause the compressor to run in a unsafe condition causing premature failure. 90% of the time we only put in 1-2 lbs of freon.

 

[Outnumbered]

Overtime SMALL amounts of freon leak out of the access caps on the outdoor unit. Maybe only a couple of ounces a year. Over 10 years you could be 1-2 lbs low on freon and this will cause the compressor to run in a unsafe condition causing premature failure. 90% of the time we only put in 1-2 lbs of freon.

So it sounds like my guy is telling me the straight up deal. I guess most people let them get too low and then they die at about 10 years. Makes sense. Thanks

 

[HotRod82]

What DR said.....and have them replace the contactors (they're cheap!) while they are there servicing the unit. Worn/ corroded contactors are the # 1 killer of compressor windings.

 

[Outnumbered]

What DR said.....and have them replace the contactors (they're cheap!) while they are there servicing the unit. Worn/ corroded contactors are the # 1 killer of compressor windings.

Thanks:thumbsup

 

[Outnumbered]

Got his coming out Friday. Thanks again.:thumbsup

 

[HavasuHank]

I was thinking about something like this the other day.

Is there a schedule to go by for maintenance? My units are from 2005, so I couldn't think of a reason why one would crap out ... but you never know when one will.

There was something that I had replaced about a year ago. I forget what it's called, but it was a silver cylindrical cartridge.

 

[Faceaz]

My only recommendation is finding a good contractor & check to make sure any components they install are good quality.

We had the condenser go out on our unit about 5 years ago. The following year the same condenser went and a fan motor. I had the same guy come out, he goes through a spiel about how parts aren't made like they used to be, :blah::blah::blah: The following year - yep, the same. Pulled out the condenser went down to the parts house, the quality difference was evident just in the housing. Haven't had a problem since.

 

[Riverguy553]

If he charges you $95 dollars a pound he is screwing you with no lube.... I buy it all day long and I get killer rates on it, even if he sold it to you for $40 a pound that's still high....

 

[Outnumbered]

If he charges you $95 dollars a pound he is screwing you with no lube.... I buy it all day long and I get killer rates on it, even if he sold it to you for $40 a pound that's still high....

Is there a price diff here in AZ?

 

[TPC]

Remove the fuse holder to each unit to cut off power. It's probably a grey box on the wall of the house:

Then, locate the contactors.
They are probably behind this panel on each condenser:

Chances are the silver is almost gone from the contact face/surface(s) (just like points on in a distributor) bugs (usually silverfish), flotsham and jestsham in the contactors moving works may also be keeping them from making a full, good, clean, connection.
They start buzzing when they hit that stage and are on their way out.:

The middle rectangle is a spring loaded electromagnet controlled by the thermostat that may have junk in it you can blow out. Turn off the thermostat first.

If you don't have the 220V power disconnected you can get killed if you make contact so think twice before ya attempt this. Only takes 4 amps to kill ya,, you'll get a hot load of 50.

Blow out the contactor magnet slide with compressed air.
If the house is cooling fine ya don't need freon.

 

[Outnumbered]

I just checked Craigslist and there is tons of it for $360-385 per 30lb cylinder new and sealed. So it looks like the dude is ripping me off on the r22. He was telling me it is going up and up etc. Seems like some BS line to me. :rolleyes

 

[Outnumbered]

Can I buy a 30# cylinder of this stuff off craigslist and keep it for future use or do I need a license to do so?

 

[dezertrider]

I just checked Craigslist and there is tons of it for $360-385 per 30lb cylinder new and sealed. So it looks like the dude is ripping me off on the r22. He was telling me it is going up and up etc. Seems like some BS line to me. :rolleyes

Find a guy on Craig's list and you will get a deal. This guy is cheap


If he was charging you $90+ per pound including labor he's not far off. There are a ton of crooks in this industry but a lot of good fair contractors. The cost to run a service truck in HVAC is just under the cost of an ambulance. It's fucking expensive.

I fucking hate people that run to there PC looking up parts cost.


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[Outnumbered]

Find a guy on Craig's list and you will get a deal. This guy is cheap
View attachment 271934

If he was charging you $90+ per pound including labor he's not far off. There are a ton of crooks in this industry but a lot of good fair contractors. The cost to run a service truck in HVAC is just under the cost of an ambulance. It's fucking expensive.

I fucking hate people that run to there PC looking up parts cost.


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Thanks. I'm self employed. I understand mark-up. But he is charging me a service call fee PLUS $95/lb for R22 that suppliers are selling for $385 per 30# bottle. That is crazy mark-up. And this is a guy I refer a lot of rental repairs so I was hoping he would not gouge me.

 

[Outnumbered]

This looks like a legit supply house, not a guy selling out of his garage.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/for/3782745350.html

 

[Riverguy553]

Find a guy on Craig's list and you will get a deal. This guy is cheap
View attachment 271934

If he was charging you $90+ per pound including labor he's not far off. There are a ton of crooks in this industry but a lot of good fair contractors. The cost to run a service truck in HVAC is just under the cost of an ambulance. It's fucking expensive.

I fucking hate people that run to there PC looking up parts cost.


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I agree but I hate people that say $95 a pound, I do commercial refrigeration and I deal with cheap shits all day long...

 

[dezertrider]

This looks like a legit supply house, not a guy selling out of his garage.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/for/3782745350.html

You need a EPA license to buy it....... Or your supposed to. It's being phased out in a couple of years and will be really expensive. Get some and hold on to it. They have a few replacement gases but they run at a reduced capacity and they are new to the industry.

 

[BajaMike]

TCP is the HVAC expert...listen to him.

 

[Charger32]

Get a digital thermometer at Home Depot 10.00 or so and take a temp reading at your filter grill and then at one of your other supply registers in the house with the most air flow. The air leaving the register should be 18 to 22 degrees colder then the air at your filter grill. This will give you a good idea of your units charge . Any thing below 18 degrees you maybe low on charge or have other issues that need to be checked. Don't pay over 45.00 per pound for r 22 and make that that clear to whoever is coming out to check the unit. There is plenty of mark up at that price and they won't turn it down. If the air temp is 22 degrees or more you have a air flow issue like a plugged filter or dirty evap coil ect...
If you need a residential guy in phx I can set you up with someone who won't rip you off.

 

[Keymyster]

So who is the person to call in Havasu for service?

 

[RSoscia]

If he charges you $95 dollars a pound he is screwing you with no lube.... I buy it all day long and I get killer rates on it, even if he sold it to you for $40 a pound that's still high....

I was thinking the same thing. Even at 30 t0 35 per pound your making money you dont need to screw poeple over Call some one else. If he marks up freon that high what does he sell a 30 amp contactor for 150 they cost 10 bucks.

 

[Outnumbered]

Get a digital thermometer at Home Depot 10.00 or so and take a temp reading at your filter grill and then at one of your other supply registers in the house with the most air flow. The air leaving the register should be 18 to 22 degrees colder then the air at your filter grill. This will give you a good idea of your units charge . Any thing below 18 degrees you maybe low on charge or have other issues that need to be checked. Don't pay over 45.00 per pound for r 22 and make that that clear to whoever is coming out to check the unit. There is plenty of mark up at that price and they won't turn it down. If the air temp is 22 degrees or more you have a air flow issue like a plugged filter or dirty evap coil ect...
If you need a residential guy in phx I can set you up with someone who won't rip you off.

Thanks. Please PM or post up a referral. I'm always looking for good people. :thumbsup

 

[dezertrider]

Let me start off by first saying if you know how to repair AC systems you should never pay more then the cost of the parts to repair it. Now if you have no clue how to do so plan on paying a contractors cost plus profit. You people kill me! Telling me what I can charge is ridiculous as a legit contractor. I have to carry a license by the EPA to buy refrigerant. We also have to have all the tools required to recover and evacuate AC systems required by the EPA. Now I need to pay a skilled technician and supply him with a truck with all the tools and supplies required to repair your equipment. Now I have to pay workers comp insurance and fuel for that truck along with liability insurance so you covered in the case I burn down your house. Each truck and employee costs over a 100k to operate in a vehicle and now I have to add the cost of a shop and people to answer the phone.

There are lots of guys running around doing side jobs that are cheap. There are lots of contractors that are crooks also. I see both all the time.

I charge more then you guys are saying is too expensive but we are always gonna be here for you . I see it all the time. A customer saves a bunch of money but pays us to fix there mistake.


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[RSoscia]

Let me start off by first saying if you know how to repair AC systems you should never pay more then the cost of the parts to repair it. Now if you have no clue how to do so plan on paying a contractors cost plus profit. You people kill me! Telling me what I can charge is ridiculous as a legit contractor. I have to carry a license by the EPA to buy refrigerant. We also have to have all the tools required to recover and evacuate AC systems required by the EPA. Now I need to pay a skilled technician and supply him with a truck with all the tools and supplies required to repair your equipment. Now I have to pay workers comp insurance and fuel for that truck along with liability insurance so you covered in the case I burn down your house. Each truck and employee costs over a 100k to operate in a vehicle and now I have to add the cost of a shop and people to answer the phone.

There are lots of guys running around doing side jobs that are cheap. There are lots of contractors that are crooks also. I see both all the time.

I charge more then you guys are saying is too expensive but we are always gonna be here for you . I see it all the time. A customer saves a bunch of money but pays us to fix there mistake.


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I don't think anyone is telling you how much you can or can't charge. I''ve been a HVAC Contractor for 25 years, I know what shit cost. I've been where you are. It cost way too much too run a A/C Shop your right. With the economy where it is I work for myself now 1 truck and I make more money with 1 truck then ten trucks. Sure when its hot people have to wait, but the fact is they wait because they know i'm not going to screw them over. Its ok to turn 1 dollar into 2 dollars. Its not ok to turn 1 dollar into 20. Just my 2 cents. and yes I have all the tools as well and it sucks when people bust your balls over a buck but thats how it is.

 

[HotRod82]

I don't think anyone is telling you how much you can or can't charge. I''ve been a HVAC Contractor for 25 years, I know what shit cost. I've been where you are. It cost way too much too run a A/C Shop your right. With the economy where it is I work for myself now 1 truck and I make more money with 1 truck then ten trucks. Sure when its hot people have to wait, but the fact is they wait because they know i'm not going to screw them over. Its ok to turn 1 dollar into 2 dollars. Its not ok to turn 1 dollar into 20. Just my 2 cents. and yes I have all the tools as well and it sucks when people bust your balls over a buck but thats how it is.

LOL....if you are making more with one truck than with 10 trucks you are doing it wrong.

 

[Tinkerer]

No way does it cost $100,000 to run a service truck with employee and all operating costs. I charge $75 for the first 45 minutes and that includes travel. Then $80 per hour after that. I charge $40 per lb on Freon 22. A 30# cylinder costs $450 here. I make a good living and am constantly buried. A properly installed and sealed A/C system does not leak any Freon. If you are leaking Freon out of the service ports then the service man should have installed brass caps that don't use an O ring to seal. Metal to metal seal is the ONLY one that wont leak ever. Temperature drop across the evaporator coil is not a good way to judge if your unit is working properly - there are way too many variables. The temperature readings need to be taken at the return duct opening of the furnace or air handler and just after the evaporator coil. taking readings at the return and supply registers will not be accurate. You need $2000 to $4000 worth of tools to properly service and install A/C systems. Overheating an A/C compressor does not cause acidic oil or damage to the compressor windings. What causes acidic oil and damage to the compressor windings is moisture in the oil. The compressor and most motors have a thermal overload that will shut the power off to the motor before any damage is done to the windings. Have the units serviced by someone qualified.

 

[RSoscia]

LOL....if you are making more with one truck than with 10 trucks you are doing it wrong.

OK What I meant was really less stress, less bull shit from employees, not having to go back for free because the employee fucked up. Employee stealing bullshit stuff like duct tape, copper fittings, ect. , doing side jobs with your tools and your parts, less of everything IE MORE MONEY

 

[RSoscia]

I was thinking about something like this the other day.

Is there a schedule to go by for maintenance? My units are from 2005, so I couldn't think of a reason why one would crap out ... but you never know when one will.

There was something that I had replaced about a year ago. I forget what it's called, but it was a silver cylindrical cartridge.

Run Capacitor the run caps today are built to fail. The older ones were 5 times the size they are today. The older ones had more oil in them to keep them cool. The new ones when they go bad look like a frozen soda in a alumnum can that was left in the frezzer.

 

[RSoscia]

Find a guy on Craig's list and you will get a deal. This guy is cheap
View attachment 271934

If he was charging you $90+ per pound including labor he's not far off. There are a ton of crooks in this industry but a lot of good fair contractors. The cost to run a service truck in HVAC is just under the cost of an ambulance. It's fucking expensive.

I fucking hate people that run to there PC looking up parts cost.


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You say $ 90 for R- 22 plus labor is not far off. Sorry DR but he is at least 50 bucks to high. If you don't mind me asking what do you charge for R-22 to all your customers.

I hate contractors that rip off their customers, but when they call me you over price contractors lose work so good for me LATER

 

[Hammer]

You say $ 90 for R- 22 plus labor is not far off. Sorry DR but he is at least 50 bucks to high. If you don't mind me asking what do you charge for R-22 to all your customers.

I hate contractors that rip off their customers, but when they call me you over price contractors lose work so good for me LATER

I believe DR said $90 INCLUDING Labor.

 

[Riverbound]

LOL....if you are making more with one truck than with 10 trucks you are doing it wrong.

That's my thoughts exactly. Sounds like he's one of "those" contractors.

 

[Riverbound]

You say $ 90 for R- 22 plus labor is not far off. Sorry DR but he is at least 50 bucks to high. If you don't mind me asking what do you charge for R-22 to all your customers.

I hate contractors that rip off their customers, but when they call me you over price contractors lose work so good for me LATER

Go back and read the post obviously reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Also based on your prior post neither was running a business and employees.

 

[Outnumbered]

Guys, no need to bash each other. This thread is getting way off track. Everyone has their own way to run a business. Whatever works for them is fine in my book. I don't mind paying more for good people but I also expect a fair (or below full retail) deal from someone I have referred tons of business to.

Thanks for all the help:thumbsup

 

[Tinkerer]

Riverbound - are you speaking from experience? The HVAC business has been very difficult the last 5 years. The companies that were based on new construction when the bottom fell out found it almost impossible to convert to service and replacement. A lot of those companies went under. My business was not based on new construction at all. The most profitable HVAC company is the one man operation. But there are only so many hours in a day.

 

[RSoscia]

Riverbound - are you speaking from experience? The HVAC business has been very difficult the last 5 years. The companies that were based on new construction when the bottom fell out found it almost impossible to convert to service and replacement. A lot of those companies went under. My business was not based on new construction at all. The most profitable HVAC company is the one man operation. But there are only so many hours in a day.

I agree with you Tinker Its just soo much easyier by myself and more profitable. Hey I will charge you guys 90 bucks per pound if thats what you want to pay, but I make a good living on charging 35. All of my customers come from word of mouth I do not advertise at all and yet I'm slammed with work not playing on the computer at 9:45 in the morning and no I'm not one of those contractors unless you mean successful.

 

[Riverbound]

Riverbound - are you speaking from experience? The HVAC business has been very difficult the last 5 years. The companies that were based on new construction when the bottom fell out found it almost impossible to convert to service and replacement. A lot of those companies went under. My business was not based on new construction at all. The most profitable HVAC company is the one man operation. But there are only so many hours in a day.

I might have some experience in the hvac business .


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[Charger32]

Who cares what any of us charge. We all have different overhead, boat payments and financial obligations. I believe this thread was starting by someone asking for advice. Someone who did not want to get taken advantage of and reached out to this format to get info. As business owners we take a risk every day trying to keep our business operating and profitable. I do charge more for a COD customer then I would to one of my contract customers and I think that is what outnumbered was looking for info on a good price. We all know companies who get 250.00 for a 8.00 run cap but who am I to say that is wrong but I will let a friend know not to pay that for a 8.00 part. It sounds like there is a lot of HVAC knowledge here and none of us know it all , even though we may think it.

 

[Tinkerer]

Riverbound - I own a small HVAC company now but 15 years ago I was service manager of the biggest HVAC company in west Michigan. I have been doing this for 41 years.

 

[HotRod82]

Riverbound - I own a small HVAC company now but 15 years ago I was service manager of the biggest HVAC company in west Michigan. I have been doing this for 41 years.

my condolences........lol.

 

[Riverbound]

Riverbound - I own a small HVAC company now but 15 years ago I was service manager of the biggest HVAC company in west Michigan. I have been doing this for 41 years.

That's awesome. So after 41 years I would assume you are semi retired and work for fun?

 

[Outnumbered]

Well, TPC was right. The unit was topped off good as new, needed no Freon. The guy checked the caps and contactors and they were all good. Said he could install new ones but would not feel right in doing so. He ended up not charging me for the service since I referred him business. BTW, he did this without me asking for any favors. All in all, I'm very happy with the outcome.

Thanks again for the help.:thumbsup