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Now Calif/Newson Going After Sportfishing Boats

LakeMeadLavey

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Where is this state headed with all this BS. Driving people out and killing hard working peoples livelihood.

 

BingerFang

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Can anyone find the actual law that is being imposed? Can’t find it on the CARB website.
 

Taboma

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Where is this state headed with all this BS. Driving people out and killing hard working peoples livelihood.

Yeah well Fuck Newsom ---- Horribly written appeal, no facts, all conjecture and posturing to get your attention. They need to provide a link to the exact verbiage of the portion of the bill that applies to commerical fishing vessels, not tugboats, pilot boats and other harbor craft.
An immanent threat ? Many of these regs were passed in 05 and 06', but which ones ?
I'll be happy to sign the petition, even though I haven't fished on a cattle boat in over 30 years, but I know others do enjoy the experience, but I want to know what I'm signing and why --- Newsom or no Newsom.
 

LakeMeadLavey

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Yeah well Fuck Newsom ---- Horribly written appeal, no facts, all conjecture and posturing to get your attention. They need to provide a link to the exact verbiage of the portion of the bill that applies to commerical fishing vessels, not tugboats, pilot boats and other harbor craft.
An immanent threat ? Many of these regs were passed in 05 and 06', but which ones ?
I'll be happy to sign the petition, even though I haven't fished on a cattle boat in over 30 years, but I know others do enjoy the experience, but I want to know what I'm signing and why --- Newsom or no Newsom.
Wasn’t asking anyone to sign the petition. Just passing along from a boat I follow the Mirage out of Channel Islands on another page. The boat owner is a good dude and I’ve known his wife for over 30yrs. Just another gov regulation by CARB.
 

Desert Whaler

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There's legislature being drafted up to force sportboats to re-power with technology that even doesn't exist.
If you think this is where it ends . . . you're flashing . . . never mind the 'serious performance boats' they'll be coming after your new Merc 4-stroke regardless of how many 'Star Stickers' are on the cowling . . . . they want catylitic converters on them . . . and then straight electric only.
Think I'm kidding??? . . . . look up 'California 30/30' . . . they wanna take 30% of all land, lakes, sea, forest, desert, and make it a no-go-zone to EVERYONE by 2030 . . . . .
 

Ballsdeep

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How does any of this shit get enforced or regulated on the river CA/AZ waterway or a place like Lake Tahoe CA/NV waterway where each state may have a different requirement?

And I agree FUCK NEWSOME!
 

Backlash

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Monitor and enforce it at the ramps. No cats, no emission compliant stickers, no entrance. Just like they currently do for two-strokes at so many other places. Frigging sucks. How many of us can afford to go out and repower our boats to the tune of $20,000 PLUS, "Just cuz." 🤬
 
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Taboma

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Wasn’t asking anyone to sign the petition. Just passing along from a boat I follow the Mirage out of Channel Islands on another page. The boat owner is a good dude and I’ve known his wife for over 30yrs. Just another gov regulation by CARB.
The message and links are certainly asking the petition be signed, I wasn't referring to you.
 

Taboma

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There's legislature being drafted up to force sportboats to re-power with technology that even doesn't exist.
If you think this is where it ends . . . you're flashing . . . never mind the 'serious performance boats' they'll be coming after your new Merc 4-stroke regardless of how many 'Star Stickers' are on the cowling . . . . they want catylitic converters on them . . . and then straight electric only.
Think I'm kidding??? . . . . look up 'California 30/30' . . . they wanna take 30% of all land, lakes, sea, forest, desert, and make it a no-go-zone to EVERYONE by 2030 . . . . .
Oh I see, so you've read what the legislation is going to require ? You've read about this technology that doesn't even exist ? Please provide a link.
I want to read it for myself. You've personally read about these mystical technologies that are going to require complete hull renovations and stringer replacement have you ?

My comment had nothing to do with CARB or EPA or the rebates that have been offered by the feds for almost 20 years to re-power.

What I wrote was, if you're going to put out a request, if you're going to ask the public to support your cause, no matter what it is ---- Include some fucking facts, and a few links, not links that just keep going to the same plea from a different boat or organization, but actual hard facts.

If we as boaters are going to fight against these types of legislation, we need to do so with intelligent responses and you can't offer intelligent rebuttals unless you're armed with the facts.
 

COCA COLA COWBOY

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I see captains moving their boats to Mexico and forcing fishermen to travel to Ensenada and Cabo to fish.

We really need to focus on getting Newsom out. This new liberal environment is to weed out conservatives and our way of life.
 

Desert Whaler

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Oh I see, so you've read what the legislation is going to require ? You've read about this technology that doesn't even exist ? Please provide a link.
I want to read it for myself. You've personally read about these mystical technologies that are going to require complete hull renovations and stringer replacement have you ?

My comment had nothing to do with CARB or EPA or the rebates that have been offered by the feds for almost 20 years to re-power.

What I wrote was, if you're going to put out a request, if you're going to ask the public to support your cause, no matter what it is ---- Include some fucking facts, and a few links, not links that just keep going to the same plea from a different boat or organization, but actual hard facts.

If we as boaters are going to fight against these types of legislation, we need to do so with intelligent responses and you can't offer intelligent rebuttals unless you're armed with the facts.
No. I haven't read any legislation. or what 'could' be required . . . and I only 'heard' some explanations of the amount of retro-fitting / costs that would be involved for these 'mystical technologies'.

Here's a'link' that may have some meat to it. Hope it's closer to what you are looking for.


. . . and here's one from CARB

 
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brgrcru

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Oh I see, so you've read what the legislation is going to require ? You've read about this technology that doesn't even exist ? Please provide a link.
I want to read it for myself. You've personally read about these mystical technologies that are going to require complete hull renovations and stringer replacement have you ?

My comment had nothing to do with CARB or EPA or the rebates that have been offered by the feds for almost 20 years to re-power.

What I wrote was, if you're going to put out a request, if you're going to ask the public to support your cause, no matter what it is ---- Include some fucking facts, and a few links, not links that just keep going to the same plea from a different boat or organization, but actual hard facts.

If we as boaters are going to fight against these types of legislation, we need to do so with intelligent responses and you can't offer intelligent rebuttals unless you're armed with the facts.
do you think, that this is not going to happen ?
I am 💯 sure these anti freedom regulations are all in the works . Be it 5-10-20 years down the road.
The other day I heard a commercial .
That said not in exact words ,“why should you boat and waterski , when kayaking and paddle boarding is better for the environment. “
 

was thatguy

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Oh I see, so you've read what the legislation is going to require ? You've read about this technology that doesn't even exist ? Please provide a link.
I want to read it for myself. You've personally read about these mystical technologies that are going to require complete hull renovations and stringer replacement have you ?

My comment had nothing to do with CARB or EPA or the rebates that have been offered by the feds for almost 20 years to re-power.

What I wrote was, if you're going to put out a request, if you're going to ask the public to support your cause, no matter what it is ---- Include some fucking facts, and a few links, not links that just keep going to the same plea from a different boat or organization, but actual hard facts.

If we as boaters are going to fight against these types of legislation, we need to do so with intelligent responses and you can't offer intelligent rebuttals unless you're armed with the facts.
Everything ok this morning??
There is a search feature on that new smart phone of yours! The world and all information is at your fingertips!
 

Taboma

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No. I haven't read any legislation. or what 'could' be required . . . and I only 'heard' some explanations of the amount of retro-fitting / costs that would be involved for these 'mystical technologies'.

Here's the only 'link' I could find that may have some meat to it. Hope it's closer to what you are looking for.

I spent the better part of an hour TRYING to make sense out of that PDF before I posted with the "Show me the facts" statement, it was the source of my frustration.

I got into the 135 page long document, about 60 pages, and all I found was references to Tugboats and other Harbor Craft. It's an extremely complicated document, it makes the National Electrical Code, which is now written by lawyers and essentially requires other books and website forums to fully interrupt, look like kindergarten material.
There's complicated rules and there's a million exceptions --- plus, that document being a draft of a proposal, has many sections lined out with addendums, exclusions and additional exceptions.

EPA and CARB do not respond or retreat because hand wringing pissed off citizens sign petitions, only elected politicians do. There's NO WAY IN HELL any elected politician can understand the technical or physical aspects of this proposal.

As stated, FOR NOW, this legislation is aimed at the commercial fleet, not just the tiny speck we know as sports boats, or sports fishing boats, but every boat used commercially. This is exactly what many trucking company owner RDP members have complained about as well, forcing them to purchase newer trucks and making their older ones obsolete.

If the sport boat fleets wants to garner public support, I'm all for it, but somebody from that sports boat or fishing organization needs to examine the documents and provide the specific information relative to what's being proposed for their vessel types, not tug boats.
What exactly are we fighting ? What is this mystical technology ? Etc, Etc, Etc.

My best friend's wife in another state just happens to be the hired commissioner that works for and represents the commercial fishing industry for their entire state.
She's extremely well educated, technically and logically schooled and travels the entire country representing sales and legislation relative to the the business of commercial fishing.
She doesn't stand before these political rule makers and public job-justifiers showing pictures of starving fisherman's families, or abandoned fishing vessels, she fights using facts, science and technology. She wins some and loses some, she also often gains partial victories by proposing and offering compromises.
And YES, her husband is a commercial fisherman and has been for 50 years.

CARB and the EPA are not going away regardless of who's sitting in any big chairs and sending politicians sympathy based petitions from a very small percentage of the populace, I feel is minimally effective.

Now instilling fear into other politicians by giving Newsom the boot, now that sends a message and that's our only chance of credible push-back.. 👍
 

Taboma

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Everything ok this morning??
There is a search feature on that new smart phone of yours! The world and all information is at your fingertips!
Oh please, I'm not a commercial fisherman or do I own and run a commercial fishing enterprise. So why the hell would I spend more of my afternoon pouring through more pages of that 135 page proposal than I already did ?

If these groups want more than hand-wringing support, then THEY need to do their homework and provide facts, not writing a story to conjure up imagers of starving deck hands, but actual facts.

You're an intelligent person, you know God damned well what I'm writing, don't play your P&G word games with me young man ;)
 

Taboma

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do you think, that this is not going to happen ?
I am 💯 sure these anti freedom regulations are all in the works . Be it 5-10-20 years down the road.
The other day I heard a commercial .
That said not in exact words ,“why should you boat and waterski , when kayaking and paddle boarding is better for the environment. “
I'm fucking 73 years old, I've watched this shit be hatched and continue to evolve my entire life.
I've boated my entire life as did my father before me and I fought in the rivers of SE Asia in a God Damned boat, so sure why don't you fill me in.

My entire point that so many of you are missing is ---- This is NOT a battle we're going to win using emotions as our defensive weapon --- hasn't that become clear by now ?

Apparently not. 😖
 

QC22

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I've dealt with CARB for many years. A couple of important points. CARB is a board. The board members are appointed by the Governor, but the rules that they must comply with are Federal. The CA specific stuff is because we have the worst air in the country. The fact is the USA forces this, not actually CA. With that noted, there are plenty of crazies to keep it going here, but it is important to know where it stems from.

These workshops (the posted slide show link above) can be helpful in understanding. The portion that most immediately concerns SoCal fishing charters is:

Boat Tier 4.JPG


Under 2500 hours annually can be exempted as well. That could actually limit this to the biggest players. Obviously depends on how many days a week a boat works, that's almost 50 hours a week. Many of these guys have already repowered with grant money (Carl Moyer Fund), and some may have actually ended up better off (new engines). That's not to say I agree with this stuff, but I have seen many truck fleets go through this. If they play along early they can often end up in a better position later.
 

brgrcru

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I'm fucking 73 years old, I've watched this shit be hatched and continue to evolve my entire life.
I've boated my entire life as did my father before me and I fought in the rivers of SE Asia in a God Damned boat, so sure why don't you fill me in.

My entire point that so many of you are missing is ---- This is NOT a battle we're going to win using emotions as our defensive weapon --- hasn't that become clear by now ?

Apparently not. 😖
not going to fill you in
Cause I have no idea . What the future brings ?
But the past , 10-20 years leaves little doubt. Where we are headed

its not a battle we are going to win . No matter what emotion is involved .
Been there done that . In the last year .
 

Taboma

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@Taboma

Not sure if you saw this one from CARB it's a bit shorter & probably not what you're looking for, but it does make mention of passenger fishing vessels.

👏👏👏 Excellent, thank you, exactly what I was wanting to read.
As even a cursory examination will show, this is no knee-jerk CARB and industry push, and when I write industry, I'm referring to the industry who stand to make millions as these proposed regulations are implemented.
Reading this you'll find not only the cost impacts of implementation, but the cost SAVINGs that have been estimated for public health benefits resulting from the clean(er) air.
I'm not speaking to the validity of this information, but it's relativity to those marketing this proposal for political acceptance. This is what the politicians see, and this is how it gets sold to the public.

If the respective commercial boat owners have any hope in fighting these types of bills and proposals, they must break it down and provide rebuttals based on their own facts and findings.

I was rather amazed just how large of a percentage of commercial vessels is engaged in carrying customers for fishing. It also appears the regulations for excursion vessels is more stringent, but I'm not sure if that only applies to harbor craft, not sports fishing vessels being used off season for whale watching etc.

Regardless, I believe there's some more exacting information in this report that should be extracted and a intelligent rebuttal included in any petitions.
 

Taboma

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not going to fill you in
Cause I have no idea . What the future brings ?
But the past , 10-20 years leaves little doubt. Where we are headed

its not a battle we are going to win . No matter what emotion is involved .
Been there done that . In the last year .
We're still sportin 2 stroke jet skis from the late 90's and mine which wasn't even allowed to be sold in CA when it was new. My boat runs a Pfaff 565, and I used ghost smog shop certs for 20 years, so I'm no green saint, not even remotely.
BUT, I have been driving since the mid 60's, and I'm now driving new tech vehicles that were deemed by the 70's and 80's to be virtually impossible and my cars are much faster while getting some decent MPG than my new 68' 428 Cobra Jet, that's for sure.

So we're not going stop this, that much is obvious, and crying, kicking our feet and wringing our hands won't work either, we need to face the future using knowledge and technology as a tool to achieve awesome results despite the hurdles and obstacles.
I mean look at the HP per Cubic Inch we're enjoying, look at the marine engines Teague and others are getting certified, it's amazing and in the 80's the technology that is accomplishing it was deemed impossible as we all mourned as we drove our 190 horsepower High Performance cars.
 

Desert Whaler

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@Taboma I'm glad you found is useful.

I'm sure you remember several years ago when the Marine Life Protection Act (MLPA) was signed-in. I think Clinton signed it on one of his last days in office.
The resulting 'Marine Protected Area's' (MPA's) that were being mapped-out, drafted and proposed had the entire community up in arms. I attended a few of the meetings, and in the beginning you had the commercial fisherman in one corner, the sport boat owners/ landings & tackle stores and boat operators in another corner, the spear fisherman in another corner, and the private boaters/ surf fisherman in another . . . it was a mess . . . they all wanted what was best for them. Shit, I remember at one meeting they had a guy speaking on how urine from surfers and the wax on surfboards was toxic and causing damage to the sensitive marine life. By the time they all realized they'd be better off working together, it was basically too late, the maps were drawn, and they were fighting for feet of real estate instead of miles.

I went to one of the final meetings at the Hilton in Long Beach and even spoke for a couple minutes. You are exactly right. . . . people pleading emotionally while the 'panel' sat there expressionless , waiting for it to be over. You had all these people who make their living off the ocean begging fo mercy . . . it was sad.

But what finally got me was, a group of obviously wealthy and well-funded people from the malibu colony / area had actually chartered 2 0r 3 buses and filled them with kids and young adults from their community. They had printed matching blue t-shirts for everyone to wear, and many of the kids came in painted faces, and had hand painted posters , with scenes of ocean wildlife, dolphins, whales, waves, sunsets etc. . . . the kids all line'd up and were able to speak one by one, and tell their story of how they loved watching the whales go by each year, and watching the dolphins play in the surf. It was kinda surreal. Many of the panel members smiled as the kids spoke.

I knew right then that it was over and there was no chance, . . . you had well funded, highly educated, and organized groups appealing to like-minded decision makers. It was just a formality at that point.

I wish I knew an answer to stop the runaway train of craziness in this state, seems like your damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
 

WYRD

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His recall can’t come soon enough!
True but he's not the only fox in the hen house..supermajority in Sacramento has California by the short hairs. Part of the reason the govenator was hog tied.
 

Taboma

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@Taboma I'm glad you found is useful.

I'm sure you remember several years ago when the Marine Life Protection Act (MLPA) was signed-in. I think Clinton signed it on one of his last days in office.
The resulting 'Marine Protected Area's' (MPA's) that were being mapped-out, drafted and proposed had the entire community up in arms. I attended a few of the meetings, and in the beginning you had the commercial fisherman in one corner, the sport boat owners/ landings & tackle stores and boat operators in another corner, the spear fisherman in another corner, and the private boaters/ surf fisherman in another . . . it was a mess . . . they all wanted what was best for them. Shit, I remember at one meeting they had a guy speaking on how urine from surfers and the wax on surfboards was toxic and causing damage to the sensitive marine life. By the time they all realized they'd be better off working together, it was basically too late, the maps were drawn, and they were fighting for feet of real estate instead of miles.

I went to one of the final meetings at the Hilton in Long Beach and even spoke for a couple minutes. You are exactly right. . . . people pleading emotionally while the 'panel' sat there expressionless , waiting for it to be over. You had all these people who make their living off the ocean begging fo mercy . . . it was sad.

But what finally got me was, a group of obviously wealthy and well-funded people from the malibu colony / area had actually chartered 2 0r 3 buses and filled them with kids and young adults from their community. They had printed matching blue t-shirts for everyone to wear, and many of the kids came in painted faces, and had hand painted posters , with scenes of ocean wildlife, dolphins, whales, waves, sunsets etc. . . . the kids all line'd up and were able to speak one by one, and tell their story of how they loved watching the whales go by each year, and watching the dolphins play in the surf. It was kinda surreal. Many of the panel members smiled as the kids spoke.

I knew right then that it was over and there was no chance, . . . you had well funded, highly educated, and organized groups appealing to like-minded decision makers. It was just a formality at that point.

I wish I knew an answer to stop the runaway train of craziness in this state, seems like your damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Excellent post sir 👏 👏 👏 👍

You're not damned if you do, if we use that gray matter between our ears. Yes, what the future requires for humankind to continue to inhabit this planet will only happen by the application of the intelligence humans have already shown to possess.

But you are damned if you don't. :(
As for me, I've lived my life, fought my battles, won some, lost some, but the future that can not be denied, is for most of you and yours to confront.
 

hallett3

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They are going after the performance industry. They are also looking into if you lift your truck and want bigger tires it will not be allowed because of poor gas mileage. I heard this from a performance truck company that does modifying on diesel trucks. They did deletes and the EPA shut them down with heavy fines. I kinda believe him since he’s already been fucked with. https://www.sema.org/epa-news
 
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LazyLavey

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do you think, that this is not going to happen ?
I am 💯 sure these anti freedom regulations are all in the works . Be it 5-10-20 years down the road.
The other day I heard a commercial .
That said not in exact words ,“why should you boat and waterski , when kayaking and paddle boarding is better for the environment. “
This is funny... A surfer friend fucks with me calling paddle boarders the janitors of the sea... cuz when we paddle it looks like we're sweeping the water. 😁 ......well... you had to be there
 

jones performance

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if you think this wont trickle down to the pleasure/lake/hotboat markets your sadly in denial.

such as whats going on with the epa and racecars, people think oh its just those diesel guys with black smoke theyre after, rolling coal got them looking etc.. no the verbage has been there the whole time in the clean air act and its now being enforced on the epas interpretation of the laws.
 

brgrcru

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We're still sportin 2 stroke jet skis from the late 90's and mine which wasn't even allowed to be sold in CA when it was new. My boat runs a Pfaff 565, and I used ghost smog shop certs for 20 years, so I'm no green saint, not even remotely.
BUT, I have been driving since the mid 60's, and I'm now driving new tech vehicles that were deemed by the 70's and 80's to be virtually impossible and my cars are much faster while getting some decent MPG than my new 68' 428 Cobra Jet, that's for sure.

So we're not going stop this, that much is obvious, and crying, kicking our feet and wringing our hands won't work either, we need to face the future using knowledge and technology as a tool to achieve awesome results despite the hurdles and obstacles.
I mean look at the HP per Cubic Inch we're enjoying, look at the marine engines Teague and others are getting certified, it's amazing and in the 80's the technology that is accomplishing it was deemed impossible as we all mourned as we drove our 190 horsepower High Performance cars.
[

different thinking now

Glad I lived when I did
 

ka0tyk

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Recalling newsom won’t stop this. The fact there’s slides it’s already set in stone. They’re going to try to appeal to people who make the laws and don’t know any better painting a picture of a greasy black smoke throwing fishing boat (this won’t apply to just fishing boats… it’ll be all boats) killing dolphins. Which in reality ain’t that far off… a lot of these older boats are so ragged and in such disarray they’re easy targets.
 

ConcreteDr

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This is all coming from two federal laws that have been in place for years and have trigger dates as to compliance.
1. The Clean Air Act
2. The Clean Water Act

They are national laws that are the standard to which states are supposed to follow.

We are impacted in Califorina because the feds fund the states relative to there needs and compliance with there two laws.

Im not going into too much more here but trust me each and every state will if not already have a plan towards compliance of these two laws.

All federal DOT funding to the states ( of matching tax dollars) comes after a review of how the states are in compliance.

Im in the concrete repair business on a national level and one industry I focus on and have for over thirty years is solid waste...... each and everyone thats throwing away food waste is going to see an increase in there trash bill soon and some have already as the feds have a new law that mandates that food waste is a way to generate energy thru conversion technology , so there converting food waste into gas to burn in vehicles trucks busses cars etc.

We the rate payer are funding the entire project thru grants and rates.

I know several Commerical fisherman that have had to re power with the CARB compliant motors and almost 100% of the cost was thru grants.

Some where out in the desert is a yard with hundreds of diesel motors taken out of boats up and down the coast of Califorina, I have a friend that bought two 6-71-TI Detroits with less than 2000 hours for 5 grand to replace his 6-71-N motors that had over 10000 hours on them ......its a realty folks like it or not
 

Desert Whaler

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Welp . . . this state, it's politicians and their followers can collectively suck the fart out of my ass.
To quote Dave Mustaine, "If there's a better way, I'll be the first in line". 🤘
 

spectra3279

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I'm still trying to figure how a non elected group can write laws.

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RCDave

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I'm still trying to figure how a non elected group can write laws.

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The politicians accept briebs for cash.

They forgot who they were elected to work for.

And now that they have power, use it to manipulate our entire political and economic system

And we become their slaves. and they confiscate our labor and cash. And even convenience a significant part of the population that taxes are good. When in fact they are evil
 

HB2Havasu

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I've dealt with CARB for many years. A couple of important points. CARB is a board. The board members are appointed by the Governor, but the rules that they must comply with are Federal. The CA specific stuff is because we have the worst air in the country. The fact is the USA forces this, not actually CA. With that noted, there are plenty of crazies to keep it going here, but it is important to know where it stems from.

These workshops (the posted slide show link above) can be helpful in understanding. The portion that most immediately concerns SoCal fishing charters is:

View attachment 1027981

Under 2500 hours annually can be exempted as well. That could actually limit this to the biggest players. Obviously depends on how many days a week a boat works, that's almost 50 hours a week. Many of these guys have already repowered with grant money (Carl Moyer Fund), and some may have actually ended up better off (new engines). That's not to say I agree with this stuff, but I have seen many truck fleets go through this. If they play along early they can often end up in a better position later.
So your saying all the air from Mexico which has zero emission controls on their vehicles never makes it into Californias Air Space? That's laughable, 🤪
 

Taboma

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So your saying all the air from Mexico which has zero emission controls on their vehicles never makes it into Californias Air Space? That's laughable, 🤪
So in your opinion, if mankind is incapable of solving every problem on the planet simultaneously, we shouldn't attempt to solve any ? And you think the other is laughable, sure. :rolleyes:
 

QC22

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I have no love for EPA, CARB or the AQMD in particular, but I'm with Taboma here. When I grew up I didn't know we had mountains and I lived in Fullerton... These agencies have had some positive impacts for sure.

I'm with HB2H on the mixing of air. Especially the stupid CO2 thing. Even if you believe it is a pollutant (I don't) it's like peeing in the pool. Going global.
 
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