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Off-road Wiring Question.

Backlash

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I'm getting ready to start on some small projects, and want to make sure I'm not wasting time and money with regards to wiring.

I've picked up a vintage buggy that will need to be redone. It's nothing crazy or over the top, but I'm checking to see what the masses say. Should I be using the same quality wiring and terminals that would be used in a marine environment? The wire itself may not need to be marine grade, but I would imagine I'd want quality materials and I'd assume each of he connections/terminals would benefit from being sealed.

Any suggestions, ideas, pictures etc. from you folks in the sand rail community?

Thank you in advance!!
 

02HoWaRd26

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I’m almost done rewiring my buggy from the console forward. I still used fuel/oil wire, and stainless crimps for the eyelets with glue heat shrink, but that’s what i had. I used regular cheap female spades with the glue in it heat shrink as well as it molds in real nice and keeps water out.

Wasn’t fun but sure looks good i shortened all my radio and intercom cables to fit correctly as well but striping 26g wire isn’t fun lol
 

t&y

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I'm getting ready to start on some small projects, and want to make sure I'm not wasting time and money with regards to wiring.

I've picked up a vintage buggy that will need to be redone. It's nothing crazy or over the top, but I'm checking to see what the masses say. Should I be using the same quality wiring and terminals that would be used in a marine environment? The wire itself may not need to be marine grade, but I would imagine I'd want quality materials and I'd assume each of he connections/terminals would benefit from being sealed.

Any suggestions, ideas, pictures etc. from you folks in the sand rail community?

Thank you in advance!!
I think treating it as you would a marine application is probably a good idea. Heat shrink on all the connectors is no brainer but you also want to find a way to protect the connections from the elements. Good wire loom or some of that fancy pliable electrical tape over all the joints wouldn't be too hard and would help keep everything nice and tight. My last buggy we strapped everthing to the underside of the tubes (not under the main seating area...) or on the inside bottom curve if it was anywhere near spinning tires to avoid debris.
 

Backlash

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Thank you both for the quick replies!! This will be a slow moving project, but I'm trying to get an idea what I want to do when I do start moving forward.

Any preferences regarding the use of Weather pack connectors where necessary?
 

sintax

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I’d certainly stick to the highest quality you can mentally justify cost wise. I use Ancor marine wire for power 16-18ga usually. As far as terminals and splices go, I really like TE Connectivity AMP. They have very high quality ring terminals and open barrel splices.

I’m not against weatherpak when you’re doing a harness and it’s going to need to be serviced on occasion, but I’ve also had those things be a giant pain in the ass when one terminal decides it wants to come loose.

As far as shrink, for terminal ends I typical use the Ancor marine grade, it’s the best bang for the buck shrink I’ve found. Glue + shrink so it seals well. I’ve used the higher end TE stuff, and it’s nice, but not worth the cost in my eyes. It sounds like you’re doing an old school car, so minimal wiring. But if you end up doing a efi setup, and do a big harness with lots of signal wire, I’d recommend using Raychem DR-25 for your harness. Nothing better.

Now we get into the shit that’ll make you go broke! Crimpers…

Buy a nice open barrel crimper, they’re worth their weight for sure.

My gotos lately have been

Hero FRH-07 (smaller micro terminals)
Sargent 3187 CT (for larger terminals)
Sargent 3186 CT (for sealed terminals)
Temco TH006 (battery lugs)


As far as learning, honestly the best resource I’ve found is HPA (I think it’s horsepower academy) on YouTube. If you punch in “HPA wiring” you’ll find it. They sell courses, but have prob 4 hrs worth of content free on their YouTube.

Reach out if you have any questions
 

Backlash

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I’d certainly stick to the highest quality you can mentally justify cost wise. I use Ancor marine wire for power 16-18ga usually. As far as terminals and splices go, I really like TE Connectivity AMP. They have very high quality ring terminals and open barrel splices.

I’m not against weatherpak when you’re doing a harness and it’s going to need to be serviced on occasion, but I’ve also had those things be a giant pain in the ass when one terminal decides it wants to come loose.

As far as shrink, for terminal ends I typical use the Ancor marine grade, it’s the best bang for the buck shrink I’ve found. Glue + shrink so it seals well. I’ve used the higher end TE stuff, and it’s nice, but not worth the cost in my eyes. It sounds like you’re doing an old school car, so minimal wiring. But if you end up doing a efi setup, and do a big harness with lots of signal wire, I’d recommend using Raychem DR-25 for your harness. Nothing better.

Now we get into the shit that’ll make you go broke! Crimpers…

Buy a nice open barrel crimper, they’re worth their weight for sure.

My gotos lately have been

Hero FRH-07 (smaller micro terminals)
Sargent 3187 CT (for larger terminals)
Sargent 3186 CT (for sealed terminals)
Temco TH006 (battery lugs)


As far as learning, honestly the best resource I’ve found is HPA (I think it’s horsepower academy) on YouTube. If you punch in “HPA wiring” you’ll find it. They sell courses, but have prob 4 hrs worth of content free on their YouTube.

Reach out if you have any questions
Thank you that's exactly what I was looking for! Yes Sir, this project will be a FiberTech/Mazzone car I scored. It needs some chassis work prior to any significant wiring is addressed, but I like the idea of contemplating upcoming issues. The plan is to keep it "Olds Cool" and will most likely be air-cooled. 👍 Thank you for the recommendations and the help Sir!!
 

sintax

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Thank you that's exactly what I was looking for! Yes Sir, this project will be a FiberTech/Mazzone car I scored. It needs some chassis work prior to any significant wiring is addressed, but I like the idea of contemplating upcoming issues. The plan is to keep it "Olds Cool" and will most likely be air-cooled. 👍 Thank you for the recommendations and the help Sir!!

Got ya, so yea you’ll be golden.

That’s the best kind of project. I just wrapped up rewiring my 78 Harley. It’s pretty chopped so I only have a couple circuits for lights (head/tail), ignition, and oil pressure.

When I dug into it, it was an absolute mess, I knew it was bad but didn’t know the extent until I started stripping away the decades of electrical tape and loom. There was one wire run down the backbone of the bike, it had 3 splices and 1 scotch lock on it. Just about lost my mind haha! Needless to say, there’s no original wire in the bike now and everything is sealed and properly terminated.

I’d suggest really taking some time and perfect your work before you start. Get your tools and supplies in order start doing some sample crimps, how do they look? You want to capture the wire strands fully, you want just enough, but not too much extension on the strands. You’ll want to check how the insulation is captured, you don’t want it loose, but you don’t want it cutting through the insulation either.

Next once you feel you got that under control test some crimps out. See how much force it takes to separate. A good mechanical crimp can really hold some weight if done right.
 

BamBam

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Thank you both for the quick replies!! This will be a slow moving project, but I'm trying to get an idea what I want to do when I do start moving forward.

Any preferences regarding the use of Weather pack connectors where necessary?
Buy Deutsch connectors. Water tight and so much smaller than the weathepack.
 

rivermobster

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Here is how I start a re-wire project...

DRAW it all out on paper first!!!

Go buy a box of colored pencils, use the same color pencils as the color wire you will use, and make a 100 percent complete wiring diagram.

Realize you need to change something? It's a lot easier to do with an eraser than it is with taped up bundle of wires.

And remember...

Fuses are there to protect the wiring, NOT the component. Place your fuses and relays accordingly. 👍🏼
 

rivermobster

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Do yourself a favor and make a place to work where your shit will NOT be disturbed!!!

I had to put power windows with a module in an early Bronco. You can see how I made my crayon diagram match up with the module diagram and how everything all went together.

Take your time and go slow. You'll be fine. 👍🏼

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Backlash

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Thank you all for the responses and words of advice and encouragement!

Like my many other projects, I'd like to do this one as well as I can, but within a reasonable budget. We all know how that goes..... When I picked this heap of metal up, it was just a chassis, transaxle and a few spare parts that I may or may not need. Lots of junk, but the bones are exactly what I was looking for. I've always loved the look of the Mazzone cars and finally found one for cheap. I'm sure in the end, it will have been more cost effective to buy one "Already done." But what fun is that?? 😎

When I got this mess home, I yanked the trans and the rear trailing arms, and loaded the chassis up on a dolly. I slid everything into the garage and out of the way.

First thing I plan to do, is gut this little chassis and get it all stripped down. The blue powdercoat is not my style, so it will need to be redone. There are some minor chassis modifications I have planned, so all of those will obviously need to be done before it gets its final glossy coats.

Here are a few pictures I snapped today, showing the DCB quality work I'm dealing with. 🤣


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Backlash

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As you can see from this kickass aluminum gauge panel, it's new and top of the line. The backside is even better. 🤣

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There are wires that are twisted, some are cut and there are terminals that aren't connected to anything. Some wires change color midstream which is always nice. I took enough wiring out and sorted things enough that I could pull this panel and everything attached to it. It wasn't too bad as a lot of stuff was already "Loose."
 
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Backlash

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Who's gonna do your powder coat work? I really like Sam @ Young Guns. 👍🏼
Are you rushing me?!? LMAO!!! 🤣

I'll have to look around because I know there are some good shops and a lot of talent. When it gets time to add the color back on this mess, I'll be asking for some recommendations.

I would like a recommendation on who can bake this chassis to cook off the current mess. I'd like to get it back down to bare metal so I can start addressing the things that need addressing.
 

rivermobster

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Are you rushing me?!? LMAO!!! 🤣

I'll have to look around because I know there are some good shops and a lot of talent. When it gets time to add the color back on this mess, I'll be asking for some recommendations.

I would like a recommendation on who can bake this chassis to cook off the current mess. I'd like to get it back down to bare metal so I can start addressing the things that need addressing.

I'm pretty sure Sam can do it all. He's done a ton of work for me in the past.
 

Racey

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Carbed motor? or EFI? VW I'm assuming.

M22579 Wire is pretty much the bees knees, Temperature, Impact, flexibility, but also it's overall size. The Teflon insulation is extremely durable while being very thin making for much smaller bundles.

Also use real switches, Honeywell TL series.... Cheap switches cause headaches.

Once you start getting into EFI and fan control, etc, it can definitely be worth looking into PDMs as they solve several problems in one package, eliminates relays, eliminates fuses, switches, and shrinks the overall size and complexity of the harness greatly. That may be worth considering.

@DaveH is the resident wiring guru, His systems are in several race winning offroad cars and trucks.
 

Backlash

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Carbed motor? or EFI? VW I'm assuming.

M22579 Wire is pretty much the bees knees, Temperature, Impact, flexibility, but also it's overall size. The Teflon insulation is extremely durable while being very thin making for much smaller bundles.

Also use real switches, Honeywell TL series.... Cheap switches cause headaches.

Once you start getting into EFI and fan control, etc, it can definitely be worth looking into PDMs as they solve several problems in one package, eliminates relays, eliminates fuses, switches, and shrinks the overall size and complexity of the harness greatly. That may be worth considering.

@DaveH is the resident wiring guru, His systems are in several race winning offroad cars and trucks.
Racey, this will be a bargain basement build and yes, n/a VW based for simplicity and lack of other unnecessary weight. I don't have the budget for a $100K offroad toy....my wife didn't pick the right numbers for that type of lifestyle! 🤣

From what I've heard, Dave's talents are far too great for something like this project. I would gladly accept any feedback he'd be willing to share, but this is too simple a system for someone with his talents. 😉
 

Racey

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Racey, this will be a bargain basement build and yes, n/a VW based for simplicity and lack of other unnecessary weight. I don't have the budget for a $100K offroad toy....my wife didn't pick the right numbers for that type of lifestyle! 🤣

From what I've heard, Dave's talents are far too great for something like this project. I would gladly accept any feedback he'd be willing to share, but this is too simple a system for someone with his talents. 😉

Nothing wrong with that, you don't need a whole lot of wiring for a NA carbed VW, this means it also doesn't cost a whole lot extra to use some better inputs, since there are far less of them.

Dave might have some good used Honeywell Switches and Breakers laying around even 👌👍
 

Backlash

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Shoot I vote he chromes it all!
Mazzone used to build some gorgeous aluminum frame cars, but the light weight and polished frames had a few issues over the years. They were prone to cracking. If I had an endless budget, and could afford to throw money away, I'd look for one of those frames regardless of the issues. They are beautiful when polished!!

Since this is a steel chassis, it will be powdercoated. But yes, there will be some chrome parts because that's how they should be. 😎
 

Backlash

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Nothing wrong with that, you don't need a whole lot of wiring for a NA carbed VW, this means it also doesn't cost a whole lot extra to use some better inputs, since there are far less of them.

Dave might have some good used Honeywell Switches and Breakers laying around even 👌👍
Yes Sir, that's one of the reasons why I'm choosing to tackle this project on my own. It seems fairly straightforward and with some help from resident experts, I should be OK.

"Should...." 🤣
 

DaveH

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m22759 wire is the only way to go.

Deustch terminals are the only way to go.

here is the problem you have......to by all the needed parts in small quantities...you pay a premium. then on top of that you will spend big $$ on all the needed crimpers and tooling to properly terminate everything.

you absolutely can do it yourself but it wont save you $$.
 

Backlash

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Dave, thank you for coming in and giving me more rabbit holes to dive into. 🤣

As this will be somewhat of a budget build, at least that's the goal, I don't know if it's worth it to get into the world of race car wiring. With that, comes specialized terminals, crimpers, etc.

I have however, picked up tools over the years for marine-grade wiring. They are already bought and paid for....so that might factor in to this tiny job. 🤷

Now that I've pulled almost everything out of the chassis, it looks to be a pretty simple arrangement. Time will tell where this part of the project will go.......
 

BamBam

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It's a Mazzone so a VW is probably the best way to go, but I will say it will not be the least expensive way. Once you actually price out a quality VW that will make as much HP as a subaru or Ecotec you will be surprised. Both of those could run through the VW transaxle. I recently had a dual carb VW manx type and I didn't like the carbed stuff in the sand and dirt. Even with the proper modifications they are finicky. I was ready for EFI and then I sold it to step up to a V8 Alumicraft. I know the struggles you are facing, but I have also seen your quality of work and attention to detail on the Shiaward glass work. Another suggestion I have for you is to strip the paint only where you plan to do the suspension/cage modifications, prove it works and then take the car back down for a final redo. So many times guys build beautiful cars, take them out and figure out they wanted a tab in a different spot for lights, or something was a little off and needs to change. Then it either never gets corrected or it gets corrected and always looks like a patch job.
 

MARCYTECH

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Prowireusa.com is my go to for anything working related.
Also there’s charts online to help determine wire gauge. Gauge is dependent on length of run and amp draw. Weatherpack connectors and Deutsch are both great. I prefer Deutsch.
 

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Backlash

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It's a Mazzone so a VW is probably the best way to go, but I will say it will not be the least expensive way. Once you actually price out a quality VW that will make as much HP as a subaru or Ecotec you will be surprised. Both of those could run through the VW transaxle. I recently had a dual carb VW manx type and I didn't like the carbed stuff in the sand and dirt. Even with the proper modifications they are finicky. I was ready for EFI and then I sold it to step up to a V8 Alumicraft. I know the struggles you are facing, but I have also seen your quality of work and attention to detail on the Shiaward glass work. Another suggestion I have for you is to strip the paint only where you plan to do the suspension/cage modifications, prove it works and then take the car back down for a final redo. So many times guys build beautiful cars, take them out and figure out they wanted a tab in a different spot for lights, or something was a little off and needs to change. Then it either never gets corrected or it gets corrected and always looks like a patch job.
Thank you for the words of support, it means a lot coming from you Sir. 👍 I know EXACTLY what you're talking about with regards to VW powerplants. Anything with HP and an ounce of reliability is a chunk of change today. It's not like it was years ago, where you could build a 2180 for $2500. Too bad too. As far as powerplants, I have definitely considered other options.

The frame needs to be stripped for several reasons....one is to make sure I'm starting with a solid foundation. And then, there are some changes that need to be made. It won't be a short or quick build. Much like the rest of my projects. 🤣
 

Backlash

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Prowireusa.com is my go to for anything working related.
Also there’s charts online to help determine wire gauge. Gauge is dependent on length of run and amp draw. Weatherpack connectors and Deutsch are both great. I prefer Deutsch.
Thank you Sir. Yes that graph and info. is extremely helpful. When I get to that step in the project, it will definitely be used. 👍
 

Backlash

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Good evening! I've spent a little bit of time slowly working the old loom out from the chassis. It's pretty straightforward and so far, been as rough as you can imagine. There are splices, color changes, cut wires leading nowhere, and just about every other concoction you can imagine.

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As I've pulled the old wire back out, I've also been pulling some Mason's line back through the tubing. I'll eventually use this string to pull wire back through the chassis when the time comes.
 
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Backlash

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Here are a few more pictures just to show the quality of the work people have attempted over the years.....

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As you can see, there is a reason I brought up the original questions regarding the wiring on this project. 🤣

I also pulled more "Creativity" out from this chassis. I have to believe that some of this ingenuity occurred while someone was stranded while on a family trip somewhere....and I hope some of these efforts were more of a "Trailside repair." But you never know.....

As always, thank you for following along! Take care and enjoy your evening!! 👍
 

Devilman

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Sounds like an old Samurai I picked up to bang around out on the property. It did run, but the wiring, lol OMG, the wiring. Someone had pulled ALL the wiring out of it, fuse block and all, and attempted to go back wiring up the bare necessities... and using only red wire 🤯🤪😄 I attempted to make sense of it but eventually threw in the towel. Way more headache than is worth for an occasional boony bouncer, but hey the lights work at least, lol.😄 Good luck on your project, sounds like you've got a handle on it. 👍
 

rivermobster

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Sounds like an old Samurai I picked up to bang around out on the property. It did run, but the wiring, lol OMG, the wiring. Someone had pulled ALL the wiring out of it, fuse block and all, and attempted to go back wiring up the bare necessities... and using only red wire 🤯🤪😄 I attempted to make sense of it but eventually threw in the towel. Way more headache than is worth for an occasional boony bouncer, but hey the lights work at least, lol.😄 Good luck on your project, sounds like you've got a handle on it. 👍

I had to re-do a Ford Ranch Wagon that someone had re-wired the whole car with with all black wire!

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rivermobster

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Not sure where you are at. I try and buy locally. But I've heard this place has great selection and prices. 👍🏼

 

Backlash

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Not sure where you are at. I try and buy locally. But I've heard this place has great selection and prices. 👍🏼

LA area. I've picked up most of my stuff for marine projects from online or West Marine if necessary. I used to go to a small shop in Monrovia, but that was pre-Covid. I don't know if they are still around.
 

rivermobster

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LA area. I've picked up most of my stuff for marine projects from online or West Marine if necessary. I used to go to a small shop in Monrovia, but that was pre-Covid. I don't know if they are still around.

Gonna guess you're talking about Orvac? They closed that store, but still have their main location in Fullerton. I was there a few weeks ago.

There is a small shop in El Monte if that's close to you. Cash only. Unlike Orvac, it's Automotive products only.

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Backlash

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Yes Sir, Smell Monte is close enough. I seem to be there regularly for one thing or another. Thank you for the reference!!
 

rivermobster

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Yes Sir, Smell Monte is close enough. I seem to be there regularly for one thing or another. Thank you for the reference!!

NP. It's a small shop. Mainly there for automotive business, NOT for the public. It's about four businesses (or so) in on your left. They will have all the wiring you need.

Once again...

CASH ONLY!!!
 

LargeOrangeFont

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If that is too spendy, get the fused Auxbeam SwitchBROS. These work well.

Auxbeam 8 Gang Switch Panel BA80 Automatic Dimmable LED Touch Control Panel Box Electronic Relay System Car Touch Switch Box Universal for Truck ATV UTV Boat Marine SUV Caravan -Blue, 2 Year Warranty https://a.co/d/1z7MHae

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DaveH

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Thank you for posting the links! I appreciate it! As much as I like their products, I think even the base model with the least amount of features is STILL too much for this sled! 🤷 I don't know how I'd utilize that many circuits!! Hahahaa!!
no not at all. You will easily use 8 output circuits.

1. Ignition circuit......wired to coil or MSD ignition
2. starter....wired to starter solenoid
3 run lights...........required in a buggy to operate at night
4. whip
5. headlamps

thats 5 out of an 8 circuit system. never mind any other lights, stereo/music or any other electrical device you may want or need.

that switch pro deal will save you a ton of time, wiring and headaches and elimate wiring of switches, fuses, breakers, relays etc. WAY BETTER option then some painless wiring kit.

to put everything into perspective, finishing up a single seat class one car now......took 56 circuits to wire everything. 8 is nothing.
 
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