Old Cig

[sintax]

I could get into offshore boats if dudes were setup like this... rowdy ass cam and mechanical injection

I did cringe a bit when he stood on that exhaust manifold though

 

[Riverbottom]

Pretty exotic injection I believe. Looks Like Kiekeifer timed mechanical injection. If it is there is actually a rotary valve that opens a port to each injector, unlike Hilborn, Crower etc. I had a set many years ago that I was saving for a project. Racey probably can enlighten us if it is. Betty Cook ran those on KAMMA when she was world champion in offshore.

 

[Backlash]

I could get into offshore boats if dudes were setup like this... rowdy ass cam and mechanical injection

I did cringe a bit when he stood on that exhaust manifold though

A lot of race history with that boat. They definitely dont baby it!

 

[lakemadness]

Sounds so good. Looks like similar injection to the sprint cars we ran. Can’t tell.

Was the first crank attempt to build oil pressure? Then turned ignition on for the second crank and it fired quick?

 

[Taboma]

I could get into offshore boats if dudes were setup like this... rowdy ass cam and mechanical injection

I did cringe a bit when he stood on that exhaust manifold though

I cringed more when I saw the flames from the injector stacks.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Sounds so good. Looks like similar injection to the sprint cars we ran. Can’t tell.

Was the first crank attempt to build oil pressure? Then turned ignition on for the second crank and it fired quick?

Without knowing anything about "Kiekefer" injection, I wonder if it is to prime the fuel system as well as the oil?

 

[OC Mike]

So let's hear the symphany of the two..

 

[rivermobster]

 

[Riverbottom]

Sounds so good. Looks like similar injection to the sprint cars we ran. Can’t tell.

Was the first crank attempt to build oil pressure? Then turned ignition on for the second crank and it fired quick?

Similar, but there is a mechanical fuel control valve that runs off the distributor and times the fuel to each cylinder. It is pretty exotic and a smart person figured it out long before computers and ECM,s. Now that I am retired, I wish I had kept the one I had. I let it go to a guy restoring a late 70's Bertram 40' offshore race boat.

 

[lakemadness]

Similar, but there is a mechanical fuel control valve that runs off the distributor and times the fuel to each cylinder. It is pretty exotic and a smart person figured it out long before computers and ECM,s. Now that I am retired, I wish I had kept the one I had. I let it go to a guy restoring a late 70's Bertram 40' offshore race boat.

40’ Bertram race boat? Sounds cool. Never heard of a Bertram in racing. A dock neighbor has a 36 Bertram flybridge.

 

[Tank]

73 36’ cigarette. Dry Martini is one of the most famous cigarettes ever built.

cool Read.

Historic Offshore Race Boat Association - Restoration of Dry Martini

www.historicraceboats.com

 

[nameisbond]

Cool............. I like the old Cigs more then the new ones.

 

[pixrthis]

I could get into offshore boats if dudes were setup like this... rowdy ass cam and mechanical injection

I did cringe a bit when he stood on that exhaust manifold though

I had a conversation with Norm Teague, who builds the engines at Teague Custom Marine, and laughed at the pump gas extremely high horsepower engines with a warranty of today compared to the 800 hp race gas engines that broke regularly he used to build for Bob Nordskog. The reliability and horsepower levels of today’s power plants would be unattainable with old technology.

 

[Tank]

I had a conversation with Norm Teague, who builds the engines at Teague Custom Marine, and laughed at the pump gas extremely high horsepower engines with a warranty of today compared to the 800 hp race gas engines that broke regularly he used to build for Bob Nordskog. The reliability and horsepower levels of today’s power plants would be unattainable with old technology.

This is a common sentiment (and just fact) when you get to talking with old engine builders. Funny I was just talking about this with the Mercury racing PR chick last week. Mercury put a lot of little guys out of biz.

a few years back I was interviewing Richie Zul (Zul Racing engines out of New York) for a powerboat magazine article. Richie, besides building the prettiest motors I’ve ever seen, builds one hell of a reliable motor and is an all around cool guy, is from drag car back ground and started building boat motors in the late 80’s. In the early 2000’s he was putting motors into pretty much every other cigarette built (and a bunch of other makes). This of course was right around the time Mercury was balls deep in secret development of their turbo motors. Once Merc came out with the turbo set up and the 700SCI and what not it was pretty much game over for the little guys. Richie said flat out, (something to the affect - “guys like us can’t keep up with Mercury racing. And that’s fine. They’ve bettered the industry. But the smaller shops can’t offer what Mercury does. We have to stick to our niche, smaller group of loyalists which works well for us”.

But back in the day, when Dry Martini was in its hey day. You had 30 boats racing in brutal conditions and each team had their own custom motor shop. Those guys mostly morphed into boat shops.

But yeah, theres no comparison in reliability from the motor pictures above in dry martini compared to a compatible Merc 700SCI. Though the bad assery scale tips hard to the motors in dry martini LOL.

 

[sintax]

This is a common sentiment (and just fact) when you get to talking with old engine builders. Funny I was just talking about this with the Mercury racing PR chick last week. Mercury put a lot of little guys out of biz.

a few years back I was interviewing Richie Zul (Zul Racing engines out of New York) for a powerboat magazine article. Richie, besides building the prettiest motors I’ve ever seen, builds one hell of a reliable motor and is an all around cool guy, is from drag car back ground and started building boat motors in the late 80’s. In the early 2000’s he was putting motors into pretty much every other cigarette built (and a bunch of other makes). This of course was right around the time Mercury was balls deep in secret development of their turbo motors. Once Merc came out with the turbo set up and the 700SCI and what not it was pretty much game over for the little guys. Richie said flat out, (something to the affect - “guys like us can’t keep up with Mercury racing. And that’s fine. They’ve bettered the industry. But the smaller shops can’t offer what Mercury does. We have to stick to our niche, smaller group of loyalists which works well for us”.

But back in the day, when Dry Martini was in its hey day. You had 30 boats racing in brutal conditions and each team had their own custom motor shop. Those guys mostly morphed into boat shops.

But yeah, theres no comparison in reliability from the motor pictures above in dry martini compared to a compatible Merc 700SCI. Though the bad assery scale tips hard to the motors in dry martini LOL.

exactly, theres just something special about the old engineering and design. Its a big reason why I still ride a harley shovelhead, its not because its a "better" bike, and run a v-drive.

 

[Tank]

exactly, theres just something special about the old engineering and design. Its a big reason why I still ride a harley shovelhead, its not because its a "better" bike, and run a v-drive.

Crazy the price increase in shovels too!
Always wanted to build a cut down bar hopper shovel or knuckle.

 

[sintax]

Crazy the price increase in shovels too!
Always wanted to build a cut down bar hopper shovel or knuckle.

Shovels have come back down now that the hipsters are getting out of old Harleys. Knucks are still ridiculous though. I wish I bought a shit ton of them in mid 90s. I ran a Ironhead in high school (90s) they were a little more rowdy than the knucks.

I always wanted to build a 45 magnum. (45 flat bottom, with a ironhead top end) running into a triumph trans likely. That would be my bar hopper of choice!

 

[Tank]

Shovels have come back down now that the hipsters are getting out of old Harleys. Knucks are still ridiculous though. I wish I bought a shit ton of them in mid 90s. I ran a Ironhead in high school (90s) they were a little more rowdy than the knucks.

I always wanted to build a 45 magnum. (45 flat bottom, with a ironhead top end) running into a triumph trans likely. That would be my bar hopper of choice!

bad ass.
And yeah the hipsters drive the prices through the roof.
Now you have the 75k rich kid bikes available for 10k now a days to LOL.

 

[RVR SWPR]

”DRY MARTINI” . Years ago Oxnard Ca. “Lobster Trap“Restaurant at the harbor,incredible ambience no matter what time of day whether sitting at the bar in the afternoon or dinner late at night looking out at the boats. Walking up the side walk to the Restaurant was the owners Cruiser in her slip,forget the builder,but the boat was awesome & well maintained with the Class “Dry Martini” name across the transom. Bud Smith was the owner and the guy that built Oxnard just about by himself. Sorry for dumping on the thread,just a good memory.

 

[Tank]

”DRY MARTINI” . Years ago Oxnard Ca. “Lobster Trap“Restaurant at the harbor,incredible ambience no matter what time of day whether sitting at the bar in the afternoon or dinner late at night looking out at the boats. Walking up the side walk to the Restaurant was the owners Cruiser in her slip,forget the builder,but the boat was awesome & well maintained with the Class “Dry Martini” name across the transom. Bud Smith was the owner and the guy that built Oxnard just about by himself. Sorry for dumping on the thread,just a good memory.

Not dumping on thread at all. That dry martini that bud smith owned was a converted PT boat. Roughly 80’.So bad ass. I was on it many times. I’m good friends with buds grandson. Great family. At the time you were there bud smith owned the lobster trap and the whole hotel and half the harbor still. Boat sold after bud died and I heard went down to San Diego. Whole family bog into sport fishing.

buds son in law (his daughters husband / my buddies mom and dad) own the sport fishing yacht tenacious. Bad ass ride. Well actually they just sold it and are buying a new boat for kona.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Tank, tell us what you know about hawk racing engines

 

[RVR SWPR]

Incredible memories Tank.Thanks

 

[Tank]

Tank, tell us what you know about hawk racing engines

Hawk racing engines was owned by Craig Barrie who ran cigarette while Don was still alive and became part owner when Don was killed. That’s why you see hawk edition cigarettes and a bunch of cigarettes powered by hawk power in the mid to late 80’s. The hawk 525sc is basically a Merc 525sc. Same motor. Craig is still around though he sold off hawk power a long time ago and the recent owner was shady and ran it into the ground.

Craig a great guy and a wealth of powerboat knowledge. He actually designed the bullet cafe and revolution cigarette models. I still talk to him from time to time. He currently runs statement marine but after leaving cigarette and selling hawk he worked at a bunch of different boat builders and dealers - Donzi, fountain, Baja, deep impact fast boats, dollar marine etc.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

old engineering and design

I appreciate the simplicity. the old stuff is so much easier to understand, even if we had to tolerate wear and maintenance.
a mechanical rotary valve that is directly driven by connection to the crank is a marvel in itself because it has to be ported and the rail length to the velocity stacks has to be designed intentionally for optimal performance.
Some day, I will own a Pantera with a stack injection motor.

 

[Howardflat]

My old flat bottom had mechanical injection. Its actually the same set up in @Racey flat bottom, his is a Chevy and mine was a hemi. Ran a mechanical fuel pump from a diesel and had diesel injectors from like an '78 mercedes diesel. Little hard starting but once you got it fired up it idled and ran perfectly.

 

[monkeyswrench]

My old flat bottom had mechanical injection. Its actually the same set up in @Racey flat bottom, his is a Chevy and mine was a hemi. Ran a mechanical fuel pump from a diesel and had diesel injectors from like an '78 mercedes diesel. Little hard starting but once you got it fired up it idled and ran perfectly.

I'd wondered if that was a possibility for a long time, but never had the balls to try it! Any pics? Which pump assembly did you use?

 

[Howardflat]

I'd wondered if that was a possibility for a long time, but never had the balls to try it! Any pics? Which pump assembly did you use?

@Racey might know the name of the pump.

 

[Howardflat]

 

[SBMech]

@Racey might know the name of the pump. View attachment 998707

View attachment 998708

Those are usually early P series pumps for gas mechanical injection.

They work really well when you set it up correctly, nothing like mechanical timing. Easy to tune via springs, shims and nozzles.

I know far too much as a BSC Master, had to learn all of it, from the early 40's to the 2000's, the new systems are crazy efficient and dependable.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Those are usually early P series pumps for gas mechanical injection.

They work really well when you set it up correctly, nothing like mechanical timing. Easy to tune via springs, shims and nozzles.

I know far too much as a BSC Master, had to learn all of it, from the early 40's to the 2000's, the new systems are crazy efficient and dependable.

It looked like a baby "P-pump", like a 12v Cummins. Obviously, an 8cyl one would be needed. I have seen an 8cyl setup like that used on a Ford IDI diesel that was modded...came off a tractor though. I didn't know if there were smaller 8cyl P-pumps, or what vehicles they'd have come in.

 

[OC Mike]

View attachment 998708

A Hemi with stacks is extremely