Opinion of the Church

[stevesdcb]

Seeking advice, pros vs cons, for a single outboard used boat in the 22-25 foot class. Live in Prescott, boating will be in Parker/Havasu primarily the wife & I but want room for 4. Want performance, comfort, like to cruise, but don‘t really feel the need to run 100 mph or want to pay high insurance premiums. Trying to keep it simple & reliable. Considering DCB Mach 22, Eliminator 22, Cougar MTR 22 or 23, Liberator 22 or 25, Talon XL 22, Would also consider a V boat. Liking what I read about the 300r & 400r. This will be my first outboard…….yes, I think I’m ready to convert to the church.
Thanks in advance!
Steve

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Weekday or weekend boating? Of the ones you mentioned I'd guess the Cougar or the 25 Talon would ride the best. 25 Talon with a single outboard will be impossible to find.

 

[stevesdcb]

Weekday or weekend boating? Of the ones you mentioned I'd guess the Cougar or the 25 Talon would ride the best. 25 Talon with a single outboard will be impossible to find.

Probably more weekday, my ass is getting older, these days trying to avoid any possible shit shows. I did see Liberator makes a 25 rigged with a single but I have very little knowledge about Liberator boats. Have scene King of Beers running with you big dogs out on the Delta, he seems to like his 21. Also, see Bully’s old 22 Talon XL has been for sale on Scream & Fly for about a year now….

 

[HydroSkreamin]

Looks like you’ve done your research. I echo lake p.a.l.‘s comments.

The long and short of it in this size and era of hull is they’re decently fast boats, but don’t have as modern of bottom design as some newer hulls, so performance and handling quirks show up.

If you’re serious about not being too concerned about top speed, I think the 22 Talon or 22 TalonXL deserve consideration. There’s nothing wrong with those boats, but a heavier layup, extra weight interior or stereo weight slows them down.

The Cougar intrigues me, as I’ve never been in one, and they look like they perform very well.

The 25 Liberator is a Skater bottom with the windshield moved forward ~10 inches. The later ones have the center pod from the 21 Liberator and seems to behave better in the midrange than the ones without a pod.

If you truly don’t need to hit the century mark for speed, there’s a ton of boats on your radar, of which the heavier ones will ride well, but are harder to sell because of their lack of speed.

Of the boats currently available, Bully’s old Talon is the nicest of the crop. Just don’t expect to keep up with your buddies running 110-120, and life will be good.

Good luck on your quest, and let us know what you get!

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Looks like you’ve done your research. I echo lake p.a.l.‘s comments.

The long and short of it in this size and era of hull is they’re decently fast boats, but don’t have as modern of bottom design as some newer hulls, so performance and handling quirks show up.

If you’re serious about not being too concerned about top speed, I think the 22 Talon or 22 TalonXL deserve consideration. There’s nothing wrong with those boats, but a heavier layup, extra weight interior or stereo weight slows them down.

The Cougar intrigues me, as I’ve never been in one, and they look like they perform very well.

The 25 Liberator is a Skater bottom with the windshield moved forward ~10 inches. The later ones have the center pod from the 21 Liberator and seems to behave better in the midrange than the ones without a pod.

If you truly don’t need to hit the century mark for speed, there’s a ton of boats on your radar, of which the heavier ones will ride well, but are harder to sell because of their lack of speed.

Of the boats currently available, Bully’s old Talon is the nicest of the crop. Just don’t expect to keep up with your buddies running 110-120, and life will be good.

Good luck on your quest, and let us know what you get!

Spot on advise

Had a buddy that had a 24 Skater with single 300XS. The room in the cockpit was INCREDIBLE with rear seat pushed way back. Got on plane easily & ran low 90s on top. Great riding boat, porpoise from 55-75mph if I remember correctly. He is still very upset with himself for selling it 4 years ago. His boat had a very small pod in front of the lower to protect it a lil.
Too bad Nordic didn't get their 24 with full windshield dialed in.

 

[stevesdcb]

Spot on advise

Had a buddy that had a 24 Skater with single 300XS. The room in the cockpit was INCREDIBLE with rear seat pushed way back. Got on plane easily & ran low 90s on top. Great riding boat, porpoise from 55-75mph if I remember correctly. He is still very upset with himself for selling it 4 years ago. His boat had a very small pod in front of the lower to protect it a lil.
Too bad Nordic didn't get their 24 with full windshield dialed in.

Speaking of the Nordic, a 24 SX OB just popped up on Scream & Fly.

 

[RCDave]

I was in your shoes a few years back. Was in a deep V 25' stern drive. It was awesome but a large boat and lots to clean and care for.

I researched high and low for a 22' tunnel outboard. The Cougar 22MTR kept coming out on top for me. Decent size and freeboard. Large interior. Great performance. Decent ride. Quality layup and rigging. Love mine with a 300xs.

I liked it over the DCB 22 and 22 Daytona (old style).

 

[toto]

Speaking of the Nordic, a 24 SX OB just popped up on Scream & Fly.

I have always liked the 24 SX and don't know why they didn't take off more than they did. Like Lake pal mentioned I think they never really got the dialed in. Steve as we talked about the 22 MTR Is a good roomy boat but hard to find. Ping Flatsix66 as he has one with a 300xs I tried prying away from him a couple of times

 

[stevesdcb]

I have always liked the 24 SX and don't know why they didn't take off more than they did. Like Lake pal mentioned I think they never really got the dialed in. Steve as we talked about the 22 MTR Is a good roomy boat but hard to find. Ping Flatsix66 as he has one with a 300xs I tried prying away from him a couple of times

Hey Todd! LOL….I sent a PM to 66 right after you & I last talked. 66 offered a ride, I’m hoping/thinking next month, the colors on his boat are awesome, IMO. Been eyeballing Bully’s old boat, bad ass boat, but I dunno, price is step, not super crazy about the colors, boat is in TN, interesting it’s been for sale for a year. Now is not the best time to buy, COVID prices appear to still be in full effect, practicing patience.

 

[stevesdcb]

I was in your shoes a few years back. Was in a deep V 25' stern drive. It was awesome but a large boat and lots to clean and care for.

I researched high and low for a 22' tunnel outboard. The Cougar 22MTR kept coming out on top for me. Decent size and freeboard. Large interior. Great performance. Decent ride. Quality layup and rigging. Love mine with a 300xs.

I liked it over the DCB 22 and 22 Daytona (old style).

My exact thoughts! Post pic if you get a chance.

 

[RCDave]

My exact thoughts! Post pic if you get a chance.

 

[RCDave]

 

[RCDave]

 

[stevesdcb]

View attachment 1035517

YES!!!

 

[stevesdcb]

View attachment 1035518

YES AGAIN!!!!!

 

[stevesdcb]

View attachment 1035519

YES AGAIN!…..Home run! That’s me! Love the simple gel scheme, love the all white interior. Thanks for posting!

 

[RCDave]

No worries. I had to search for quite a while to find one. Had to drive up to Canada for it.

Try to find one that was built in salmon arm BC

 

[toto]

Hey Todd! LOL….I sent a PM to 66 right after you & I last talked. 66 offered a ride, I’m hoping/thinking next month, the colors on his boat are awesome, IMO. Been eyeballing Bully’s old boat, bad ass boat, but I dunno, price is step, not super crazy about the colors, boat is in TN, interesting it’s been for sale for a year. Now is not the best time to buy, COVID prices appear to still be in full effect, practicing patience.

I agree on 66's color and boat. I wanted it when it was at MOM before he bought it but I was in the middle of other Endeavors. I like the room and free board they have definitely a big difference from my Mach 22. Sorry for the night photos but for some reason these are all I can find but you can see the difference for sure. Like everyone has stated it really depends on what you are doing with it. It is only the wife and I so we love the DCB and it is plenty roomyfor us.

 

[Flatsix66]

Hey Todd! LOL….I sent a PM to 66 right after you & I last talked. 66 offered a ride, I’m hoping/thinking next month, the colors on his boat are awesome, IMO. Been eyeballing Bully’s old boat, bad ass boat, but I dunno, price is step, not super crazy about the colors, boat is in TN, interesting it’s been for sale for a year. Now is not the best time to buy, COVID prices appear to still be in full effect, practicing patience.

Steve, let me know when you may be in Havasu next? Happy to take you on a run in the Cougar.

 

[Duramax]

I don't have any experience in the 22 Daytona or the 19 for that matter, but I do in the 21. I heard that the 21 is the best handling out of the smaller Daytona's and I can believe it, as ours handles great, even with the twin outboards out back.
The issue I have is the freeboard, and sitting a little high (probably your issue too). On the Daytona's you sit on the stringers, which puts you up almost 2". If you look at the Liberators, they have have no full length stringers and the seats mount to the tunnel, along with a little higher windshield, you sit more "inside" the boat. I have since notched my stringers for my seats (lowering them 1.5") and am having a new windshield made that is 3" higher than stock. Hopefully this will solve my problem. We have a lot of storage under the back hatch and even under the front seat gunnels.

Smaller tunnels are getting harder and harder to find as it seams they are coming back in style. Hell, I think Eliminator is doing another run of 21's.

Shit, I just reread your first post! Used, single, 22-25. I apologize for my post.

 

[Duramax]

I agree on 66's color and boat. I wanted it when it was at MOM before he bought it but I was in the middle of other Endeavors. I like the room and free board they have definitely a big difference from my Mach 22. Sorry for the night photos but for some reason these are all I can find but you can see the difference for sure. Like everyone has stated it really depends on what you are doing with it. It is only the wife and I so we love the DCB and it is plenty roomyfor us. View attachment 1035535 View attachment 1035536 View attachment 1035537

That's exactly what I am doing. Your DCB the seats are floor mounted.

 

[MrMayhem]

I agree on 66's color and boat. I wanted it when it was at MOM before he bought it but I was in the middle of other Endeavors. I like the room and free board they have definitely a big difference from my Mach 22. Sorry for the night photos but for some reason these are all I can find but you can see the difference for sure. Like everyone has stated it really depends on what you are doing with it. It is only the wife and I so we love the DCB and it is plenty roomyfor us. View attachment 1035535 View attachment 1035536 View attachment 1035537

Toto. Can you tell me about your Mach? I’m seriously considering the KMG with a 450. Anything handling wise I should know? I’m going to try to find a ride in one before doing anything, but it might be time to downsize.


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[toto]

Toto. Can you tell me about your Mach? I’m seriously considering the KMG with a 450. Anything handling wise I should know? I’m going to try to find a ride in one before doing anything, but it might be time to downsize.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good evening Mayhem - We really are happy with our 22. Just like you we downsized from a 25 Daytona as it is just the wife and I and it is a lot more user friendly. The 22 actually runs better than my 25 did and feels very planted and stable. We have had 19, 21 and 25 Daytona's and this is by far our Favorite. I talked with Kevin a couple of times on a new Phantom but it was hard to swallow that pill for a 22. Kevin does amazing work and heard he improved the 22 a little more than the original but I do not have first hand experience with them. I would recommend a Mach 22 all day long as many others would and that's why they are kind of like gold - When you find them you don't give them up. Let me know if I can answer any other questions.

 

[lake p.a.l.]

I wonder if a 25 Liberator bare hull could be purchased & rigged the way you want it with whatever power you want?

 

[stevesdcb]

I wonder if a 25 Liberator bare hull could be purchased & rigged the way you want it with whatever power you want?

Good question, I’m guessing yes. From what I read on line, Randy Corson is the Liberator go to rigger out of Florida. He apparently orders the boats from Liberator out of Texas, where their made, & then custom rigs them. I think King of Beers 21 is a Corson boat.

 

[KingofBeers]

Good question, I’m guessing yes. From what I read on line, Randy Corson is the Liberator go to rigger out of Florida. He apparently orders the boats from Liberator out of Texas, where their made, & then custom rigs them. I think King of Beers 21 is a Corson boat.

Yessir. I have the first Liberator that was rigged with a 300R. Randy rigs a bunch of boats that originate in TX. He will build whatever you want. He had a 25 w/ a single 400r that I think ran in the high 80s or low 90s? I forget. IMO the Liberators are great little boats that run well in slop, but obviously the 22 Cougars are bigger and heavier and will likely ride a bit better.

 

[KingofBeers]

I will add that Ive run my boat pretty hard since Ive had it...close to 210hrs, and not stress crack anywhere.

 

[MrMayhem]

Good evening Mayhem - We really are happy with our 22. Just like you we downsized from a 25 Daytona as it is just the wife and I and it is a lot more user friendly. The 22 actually runs better than my 25 did and feels very planted and stable. We have had 19, 21 and 25 Daytona's and this is by far our Favorite. I talked with Kevin a couple of times on a new Phantom but it was hard to swallow that pill for a 22. Kevin does amazing work and heard he improved the 22 a little more than the original but I do not have first hand experience with them. I would recommend a Mach 22 all day long as many others would and that's why they are kind of like gold - When you find them you don't give them up. Let me know if I can answer any other questions.

Thanks a bunch.
I’m downsizing (maybe) from my 28SS with twin 400’s. Simplicity, easier to get in and out of, clean up, using the toon more and more… all reasons to downsize.
Is there any crazy porpoise spots in the Mach? How about turning? Leans in/out? What motor are you running? Plane time pretty good?
Appreciate ya.


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[BlowMe]

Speaking of the Nordic, a 24 SX OB just popped up on Scream & Fly.

I was drooling over that yesterday

 

[War Canoe]

Was

I was drooling over that yesterday

Isn’t that the hull that they could not get to work?

 

[instagator]

 

[instagator]

23 Talon XL , full interior, Big stereo, Inner liner , Heavy hatch, 60 gal tanks, Balance is a little off, works well just takes a little adjustment and seat time. I also have a
300 opti max on a stoker. The 400 is only a 2.6 inline super charged motor, I think less torque than the 300....That being said, Makes the boat kind of gutless trying
to roll over and the motor is mounted a little high not helping either. I think now knowing the boat a few changes that could make the boat work better. Boat has plenty
of freeboard, no worry ever when floating, Driver seat sits low and you can talk and hear the stereo at 80MPH cruising Speed ,tacking about 5200 RPM getting
4 miles to the gallon..... I love this boat because of the ease of up keep, simple clean. Sometimes heading down from pirates cruising around 75 MPH listening to
the stereo i have to remember to pay attention I'm not driving my car on the freeway !

 

[instagator]

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Those Talons are such cool boats, love the freeboard. I've always wondered if you buried that motor as deep as possible for launch then raised it with a jackplate if they would get on plane better?

 

[stevesdcb]

Jeff, super nice looking Talon! Thanks for sharing info, interesting how all these different boats have their own unique handling characteristics.

 

[stevesdcb]

Those Talons are such cool boats, love the freeboard. I've always wondered if you buried that motor as deep as possible for launch then raised it with a jackplate if they would get on plane better?

I believe Bully’s ex boat has a Jackplate, was kinda hoping he might comment sometime

 

[RCDave]

I believe Bully’s ex boat has a Jackplate, was kinda hoping he might comment sometime

I know on my cougar, the jackplate adds considerable flexibility. It planes very quickly with it buried. Keeps bowrise to a minimum. And really helps adjust the ride to varying conditions. And adds 10mph on top end up semi surfacing a prop versus cruising mode.

And another benefit is when anchored in lower water. Huge goodness there

 

[instagator]

Those Talons are such cool boats, love the freeboard. I've always wondered if you buried that motor as deep as possible for launch then raised it with a jackplate if they would get on plane better?

That is right, If my motor was mounted 2' lower it would be perfect, I have a 5" jack plate, I can only use 2' up, If the motor was mounted 2" lower i could use 4" up and i would get 2 more inches down. This could only be done by re-drilling the transom.

 

[instagator]

 

[instagator]

1 person rolling over......will not allow the 29 max 5 to spin, some times pulling the motor up helps a bit . Max 5 prop with bigger vent holes ,1 1/8 is the only prop that will even work, I have never had more than 3 people in the boat so i do not know how it would handle passengers .

 

[lake p.a.l.]

I believe Bully’s ex boat has a Jackplate, was kinda hoping he might comment sometime

His dumbass just left our house, forgot to ask him.

 

[lake p.a.l.]

1 person rolling over......will not allow the 29 max 5 to spin, some times pulling the motor up helps a bit . Max 5 prop with bigger vent holes ,1 1/8 is the only prop that will even work, I have never had more than 3 people in the boat so i do not know how it would handle passengers .

Can u trim up a bit to help it spin up?

 

[Bullhead bully]

I believe Bully’s ex boat has a Jackplate, was kinda hoping he might comment sometime

400 had a tough time getting on plane. Once it got up it ran good. It turned wonderful. Stable solid ride. But again the hole shot was an issue. If Topend isn’t important I guess you could prop down. it didn’t work for my needs.

The jackplate didn’t make enough of a difference

21 or 22 Liberator with a 300R that Randy builds would be my choice if you need to stay with a single.

25 Liberator with twin 300s is a great setup. My brother has one and loves it.

After that everything gets longer and more pricey.

 

[BlowMe]

Good lookin 21 cougar with a 300

1999 Cougar 21 MTR with Mercury 300 Pro Max

1999Cougar 21 MTR with Mercury Pro Max 300 HP Outboard Engine, mounted on a Bobs Machine Shop Hydraulic Transom Lift. Mercury Bravo1 Prop, 28 inch pitch, with Performance Plus System (PPS). Gaffrig / Mercury Gauges. Hull Mounted Water Pick-Up. Foot Throttle. Pop Up Cleats. Boarding Ladder. 1...

www.screamandfly.com