Plane crash Santee

[Waffles]

I get the disorientation, but wouldn’t hanging from your seat belt give you some indication you are upside down?

If you ever get a chance to, buy a Groupon from a flight school that takes you up. The amount of g forces you have weighing down on you at all times makes it almost impossible to distinguish what’s up from down. You can’t ( or at least I couldn’t) notice distinguishing physical characteristics from gaining altitude and making a left or right bank turn. I was constantly pressed into my seat and without visual reference points, I would’ve never known which way was up. It’s a trippy feeling

 

[wallnutz]

If you ever get a chance to, buy a Groupon from a flight school that takes you up. The amount of g forces you have weighing down on you at all times makes it almost impossible to distinguish what’s up from down. You can’t ( or at least I couldn’t) notice distinguishing physical characteristics from gaining altitude and making a left or right bank turn. I was constantly pressed into my seat and without visual reference points, I would’ve never known which way was up. It’s a trippy feeling

To further the experience put the hood on and have the instructor do some basic turns and other basic maneuverers and then take the controls with the hood still on. You would be amazed how disoriented you can get in just a couple of minutes.

 

[Deano]

I get the disorientation, but wouldn’t hanging from your seat belt give you some indication you are upside down?

No. When you are in very simple 1g turn or spin you can't feel anything. I've been disoriented, on purpose, during training and it is no joke. You have no idea what is going on until you read a few gauges and put the puzzle together in your head.

 

[lbhsbz]

If you ever get a chance to, buy a Groupon from a flight school that takes you up. The amount of g forces you have weighing down on you at all times makes it almost impossible to distinguish what’s up from down. You can’t ( or at least I couldn’t) notice distinguishing physical characteristics from gaining altitude and making a left or right bank turn. I was constantly pressed into my seat and without visual reference points, I would’ve never known which way was up. It’s a trippy feeling

This. I logged about 10 hours years ago…I could never fly staring out the window…I was all instruments. If I flew out the window I couldn’t maintain altitude or direction very well.

 

[Waffles]

To further the experience put the hood on and have the instructor do some basic turns and other basic maneuverers and then take the controls with the hood still on. You would be amazed how disoriented you can get in just a couple of minutes.

This. I logged about 10 hours years ago…I could never fly staring out the window…I was all instruments. If I flew out the window I couldn’t maintain altitude or direction very well.

I flew out of riverside my first time out and was immediately disoriented when we reached the airspace over lake Mathews. I couldn’t maintain altitude either with the rolling hills and the Santiago canyon/ Santa Ana mountains as my backdrop. I relied heavily on my altimeter and attitude indicators to keep me steady.

 

[RitcheyRch]

Just read that the UPS driver was very close to retirement.

 

[Wedgy]

RIP My Union Brother. Sad, sad deal all the way around. I lived up in the hills in the West end of the Cuyamaca St. Valley. Way too close to FRSCKE's. That school has seen a lot of tragedy, as had SD. The anniversary of the midair collision over Hillcrest had just passed, as well.
Flying is no Joke. I'm named after a WW2 Naval Aviator. Thanks Bill. See you on the other side. Uncle Buck will play Roll out the Old Beer barrel, Pops on his Harmonica. Semper Fi Sailor. RIP all the Fallen. God Bless.

 

[4Waters]

View attachment 1058102
Looked like a fun dude! RIP Steve Krueger

That guy would have fit right in around here

 

[charred1]

That guy would have fit right in around here

Exactly my thoughts too!

 

[RiverDave]

Va xxed pilots are dropping dead midflight all over the show (clots aka "heart attacks" maybe expedited by high altitude idk) and they are covering it up & censoring posts as fast as they can but I've seen some chatter on tiktok & IG about this being one of the driving factors for SW pilot walkout. A large % of those pilots are ex-military and they are rising up & refusing the whackcine.

Had to come back to the vax lol

 

[RiverDave]

I get the disorientation, but wouldn’t hanging from your seat belt give you some indication you are upside down?

Not if you are pulling one g or more

 

[rrrr]

Ehh, are you a pilot? (Honest question)

if you haven’t experienced spatial disorientation in IMC (clouds) it’s a motherfucker and people freeze up when nothing makes sense. The clouds were thicker and more solid than the recreation yesterday and with the way the wind was he was most likely getting rocked pretty good with turbulence.

The calm responses are odd… Sad deal no matter what

You make a good point.

The sensations of the "leans" is so damn powerful, sometimes it takes all the effort one has to fight it off. Your body is telling you the aircraft is in a 90° bank or climbing straight up, and unless you overcome those sensations and believe the instruments, it's gonna be over quick.

Sometimes a pilot will lose control in the overcast. When the plane comes out of the clouds in a spin, the airspeed has increased past the redline, and all he sees is the ground getting closer by the second. The pilot will pull back on the yoke with all his might trying to recover. That action will exceed the structural limits of the aircraft and pull the wings off.

The crash in Yorba Linda last year clearly illustrated that. The plane was a twin engine Cessna 414, a bit larger than the 340 that crashed yesterday. Dashboard camera footage shows the event. The wings separated, and the fuselage came down like a brick.

One of the wings, its integral fuel tank full from the fillup just before takeoff, landed on a house with four people getting ready for a football party. The fuel ignited and turned the house into an inferno.

 

[rrrr]

Yorba Linda, you can hear him throttle up to try and pull out.....

That wasn't a throttle increase. The pilot had lost control, the plane was in a diving spin, and what you hear are the engines overrevving from the airspeed going off the scale.

Then the big bang you hear is the wing spars snapping from the structural overload as the wings come off.

 

[rrrr]

Modern avionics and digital autopilots have a LVL button that will level the aircraft. But it still takes some altitude.

And, as you know, an autopilot system does not have sufficient control authority to return an airplane to level flight if the degree of upset is significant.

If a pilot loses control and the airplane is at an extreme bank or pitch angle, the autopilot will refuse to engage.

 

[kimbalee]

Had to come back to the vax lol

yes the clotting in their vaxed peers is due to the vial contents - that's why the unvaxed r rising up and walking out.

 

[paradise]

And, as you know, an autopilot system does not have sufficient control authority to return an airplane to level flight if the degree of upset is significant.

If a pilot loses control and the airplane is at an extreme bank or pitch angle, the autopilot will refuse to engage.

That’s not true of modern digital autopilots. One of the guys on another forum demonstrated his at the top of a loop And other aerobatic maneuvers. It’s kinda the point of the level button on most modern new autopilots. Get you back from unusual attitudes.

 

[4Waters]

That’s not true of modern digital autopilots. One of the guys on another forum demonstrated his at the top of a loop And other aerobatic maneuvers. It’s kinda the point of the level button on most modern new autopilots. Get you back from unusual attitudes.

With today's technology I thought his statement seemed weird but I'm not a pilot and have no clue about how autopilot works so no need to question it.

 

[Cobalt232]

You make a good point.

The sensations of the "leans" is so damn powerful, sometimes it takes all the effort one has to fight it off. Your body is telling you the aircraft is in a 90° bank or climbing straight up, and unless you overcome those sensations and believe the instruments, it's gonna be over quick.

Sometimes a pilot will lose control in the overcast. When the plane comes out of the clouds in a spin, the airspeed has increased past the redline, and all he sees is the ground getting closer by the second. The pilot will pull back on the yoke with all his might trying to recover. That action will exceed the structural limits of the aircraft and pull the wings off.

The crash in Yorba Linda last year clearly illustrated that. The plane was a twin engine Cessna 414, a bit larger than the 340 that crashed yesterday. Dashboard camera footage shows the event. The wings separated, and the fuselage came down like a brick.

One of the wings, its integral fuel tank full from the fillup just before takeoff, landed on a house with four people getting ready for a football party. The fuel ignited and turned the house into an inferno.

Here is a great link to the different kinds of spatial disorientation:

The 6 Types Of Spatial Disorientation, And How To Prevent Each One

Flying through the clouds on an IFR flight can be pretty exciting, but it's not without risk: between 5-10% of all general aviation accidents result from spatial disorientation, and of those accidents, 90% of them are fatal.

www.boldmethod.com

Note that the somatogravic illusion is thought to have lead to the Prime Air 767 crash outside of Houston a couple of years ago. One of the crew accidentally activated TOGA (take off go around) power while setting up for landing, the first officer thought they were climbing and were going to stall, so he pushed the nose over...

 

[Cobalt232]

That’s not true of modern digital autopilots. One of the guys on another forum demonstrated his at the top of a loop And other aerobatic maneuvers. It’s kinda the point of the level button on most modern new autopilots. Get you back from unusual attitudes.

I'm assuming he is in an aircraft with large control surfaces if he is doing a loop (intentionally anyway). The LVL button wouldn't have saved Goose either.

 

[paradise]

I'm assuming he is in an aircraft with large control surfaces if he is doing a loop (intentionally anyway). The LVL button wouldn't have saved Goose either.

I don't think any 'blue button' is set to recover from a spin. Here is a video of them tested in 60 degree banks. They are specifically designed for unusual attitudes and while the loop example is extreme, it most likely would have helped this pilot. I've heard he had g500's in the plane but I haven't heard what AP.

 

[530RL]

And, as you know, an autopilot system does not have sufficient control authority to return an airplane to level flight if the degree of upset is significant.

If a pilot loses control and the airplane is at an extreme bank or pitch angle, the autopilot will refuse to engage.

They are not going to recover from extreme unusual attitudes and low altitudes but they certainly keep getting better and more capable. As Paradise points out, they have pretty expanded operating and control parameters for fixed wing.

In addition, most integrated systems have protection envelopes that will provide corrective control inputs even when the autopilot is not engaged which will help prevent wildly unusual attitudes and make the LVL button work better and with less altitude.

Unless one manually turns off the protection envelope and the AP, it is getting tougher and tougher to get into extreme unusual attitudes in excess of the LVL functions capabilities in modern integrated systems. Not impossible but you have to work at it pretty hard.

 

[rrrr]

They are not going to recover from extreme unusual attitudes and low altitudes but they certainly keep getting better and more capable. As Paradise points out, they have pretty expanded operating and control parameters for fixed wing.

In addition, most integrated systems have protection envelopes that will provide corrective control inputs even when the autopilot is not engaged which will help prevent wildly unusual attitudes and make the LVL button work better and with less altitude.

Unless one manually turns off the protection envelope and the AP, it is getting tougher and tougher to get into extreme unusual attitudes in excess of the LVL functions capabilities in modern integrated systems. Not impossible but you have to work at it pretty hard.

Agreed.

But those systems are latest generation stuff, and much of the general aviation piston engine fleet consists of aircraft that are thirty to fifty years old. The Nav-O-Matic and Century III autopilots are rudimentary fossils compared to the latest generation, like the Garmin GFC-500.

I was speaking of autopilots that would be found in 45 year old airplanes like the Cessna 340 that is the subject of this thread. Besides that, if a pilot is depending on pushing a button to save his ass after he loses control in IMC, he probably shouldn't be in the clouds.

But retrofits and modernization in older aircraft are also taking place. Primary navigation systems like the Garmin GTN-650/750 are incredibly capable, and as I said, the GRC-500 is a state of the art autopilot.

 

[rrrr]

Here is a great link to the different kinds of spatial disorientation:

The 6 Types Of Spatial Disorientation, And How To Prevent Each One

Flying through the clouds on an IFR flight can be pretty exciting, but it's not without risk: between 5-10% of all general aviation accidents result from spatial disorientation, and of those accidents, 90% of them are fatal.

www.boldmethod.com

Note that the somatogravic illusion is thought to have lead to the Prime Air 767 crash outside of Houston a couple of years ago. One of the crew accidentally activated TOGA (take off go around) power while setting up for landing, the first officer thought they were climbing and were going to stall, so he pushed the nose over...

That first officer should never have been in the cockpit of a large transport aircraft. He had failed check rides, been fired from other airlines, and was solely responsible for the crash of the aircraft. By the time the pilot recognized what was happening, the plane was in a an unrecoverable dive, and hit the water at a speed of over 400 MPH.

 

[traquer]

I'm not a pilot but I will begin training soon. Based on what I learned the past year or two trying to learn a few things, there's so many variables that when they stack up the wrong way there's little you can do.

RIP to everyone

 

[Cobalt232]

That first officer should never have been in the cockpit of a large transport aircraft. He had failed check rides, been fired from other airlines, and was solely responsible for the crash of the aircraft. By the time the pilot recognized what was happening, the plane was in a an unrecoverable dive, and hit the water at a speed of over 400 MPH.

Yeah, the Captian - the pilot not flying, had his head down programming the FMS. By the time he realized what was going on, it was too late.

 

[rrrr]

Yeah, the Captian - the pilot not flying, had his head down programming the FMS. By the time he realized what was going on, it was too late.

I wrote pilot without thinking. He was the captain, and PNF. The first officer was at the controls.

When the investigation revealed the FO's work history and how he reacted to what was minor turbulence or other unremarkable conditions in previous situations, it became clear just how unfit he was to be at the controls of anything that flew.