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pool construction experts?

v6toy4x

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I want to build a covered kitchen cabana type deal over the existing exposed aggregate patio around our pool.

Screenshot 2021-06-16 140959.jpg


I have an in house engineer who can easily size everything for me but he knows nothing about typical pool builds.

I will have 7 piers (orange dots) situated to stay out of the sight lines to the back yard and pool area from the living room and game room while trying to minimize free span to keep the beams reasonable in size, longest right now is about 28'
For the ones that land on the patio I am thinking a clean 18" core hole and then carefully auger down a few feet to get enough mass against wind up lift.

I am good with all of them except the one closets to the pool (arrow) This column will unfortunately be carrying the most load of all of them approx 4,000lbs

Is there a typical way the piping is ran for the skimmers and vacuum hook ups (other red arrows) to the equipment which is located at the end of the house (more red arrows) I am trying to find out if there is a way to logic if there are any pipes where this one would land. In the build pics I have seen it looks like all piping is usually under the perimeter concrete work but not necessarily with any real rhyme or reason?

This detail looks like putting 4000 lbs 2 feet from the edge on top of the existing is a bad idea, all back fill material. is it typical for piping to run right behind the bond beam?
Is it typical to form the back side of the bond beam or does it just over pour into the rough edge of the excavation?
How accurate is the rough excavation from the finished wall surface? In other words do they set the face of the pool off the completed excavation for wall thickness or do the walls just get thicker if the hole is over excavated?

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Basically what are the chances I am going to be able to either sit this col right on the existing or excavate and NOT hit any piping surprises.
Patching back the exposed is not what I want to do.

Is putting a column this close just an absolute NO GO?

If it works out,🤞 after the piers are poured the col bases will get an 18-20" build out around them with stone to cover the core hole.
 

GRADS

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Honestly, that center post might hit a pipe but I would be more concerned with the two that are closest to the equipment pad. Those two post could be right on top of all the lines for the pool and spa.
 

v6toy4x

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What about going with a steel I beam and metal posts and dont have a center post next to the pool. One BIG ASS long beam!
Then wrap it with stucco or siding.

possible, if I cant make a easonable glb work, prefer to stay wood.
 
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TCHB

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We built our new patio with a 30ft span using a metal beam that was engineered for the span. Where the upright beams sit the we have a 36inch by 30 inch footing. The nice thing is our view to the pool and canyon is wide open.
 

v6toy4x

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Honestly, that center post might hit a pipe but I would be more concerned with the two that are closest to the equipment pad. Those two post could be right on top of all the lines for the pool and spa.

Did you say you built pools?
I tried to find your last thread but couldnt find it.

Hitting lines is a big concern, I was wondering if there is a norm on how some lines run or if each job is its own?
 

v6toy4x

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We built our new patio with a 30ft span using a metal beam that was engineered for the span. Where the upright beams sit the we have a 36inch by 30 inch footing. The nice thing is our view to the pool and canyon is wide open.

is your avatar the view you speak off? If so "well done"
Prefer wood design if possible.
 

Bigbore500r

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Did you say you built pools?
I tried to find your last thread but couldnt find it.

Hitting lines is a big concern, I was wondering if there is a norm on how some lines run or if each job is its own?

He's HAVING A POOL BUILT ;)
 

Javajoe

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Issues with that post by the bond beam. Consider Zone Of Influence and Surcharge to be the detrimental factor. Pressure against the bond beam or pool wall is a big issue. Needs to be engineered to see if you can even do a footing there. Pool pipes are always ran all over the place. You may think about having some GPR work done to see what’s down there. A full span beam would be your best bet with large spread footings. Better get an engineer involved
 

Bigbore500r

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We built our new patio with a 30ft span using a metal beam that was engineered for the span. Where the upright beams sit the we have a 36inch by 30 inch footing. The nice thing is our view to the pool and canyon is wide open.
That's the way to go, skip destroying the pool deck and worrying about plumbing all together!

OP - you can always clad the steel beam with wood and get a wood look. Having an unobstructed view of the pool from the house is awesome!
 

v6toy4x

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That's the way to go, skip destroying the pool deck and worrying about plumbing all together!

OP - you can always clad the steel beam with wood and get a wood look. Having an unobstructed view of the pool from the house is awesome!

I have the "hookup" for GLBs and larger timber, not so much for bigger iron.
Prefer to build it all myself with a couple other "old" carpenters!
In fact I know a guy who does side jobs on river houses!!! OK on his own river house.
I am taking out (3) 4-0 x 8-0 windows in the living room, new hdr and install some multi-panel sliders similar to what you did.
 

grumpy88

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I have the "hookup" for GLBs and larger timber, not so much for bigger iron.
Prefer to build it all myself with a couple other "old" carpenters!
In fact I know a guy who does side jobs on river houses!!! OK on his own river house.
I am taking out (3) 4-0 x 8-0 windows in the living room, new hdr and install some multi-panel sliders similar to what you did.
To bad you dont know a " new " union carpenter , they do most of there work in steel now ! Haha . Good luck
 

Maw

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I had the same basic problem when building the patio structure next to the pool in our Huntington Beach house, one column (6" x 6" x 0.187" wall steel) was within 20" of the pool's outer shell. Our was worse as it was in the deep end of the pool. As I remember the load radiates at a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the column, mounting at grade it would intersect the shell. The solution was to dig down and pour an 18" diameter caisson that transfered the loading to a point under the pool shell. The top of the caisson was about 4' below grade, so the column was made that much longer. No problems 15 years later.

That being said I'm an EE, you need to talk to a civil engineer.

Cheers
 

Melloyellovector

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Way to many variables to think your going to make this easy
Plumbing is 1 concern, no there is not a set way it’s ran. Normally would be shortest distance from a to b
Structure is shot from excavation point out to what ever finish dimensions should be. Typically outer edge of coping is outside shell structure, but certainly not always
In Ca or what state. Fire zone area, earthquake zoned. If so your footing sizes suggested are way off. And many times need grade beams from post to post.
Spread footing for that big of span will be 3-4ft wide, otherwise probably 24in wide but 48in or so deep
What soil conditions
Normally near pool footing will go to depth of pool floor
You might as well do steel post. Doing wood normally you need custom made steel brackets that cost as much or more then steel posts.
Then what about electrical to cover where is that coming from
What about water electrical and gas to bbq
Bbq fully under patio cover should also have a vent hood
Saving your concrete is the least of your concerns. Cut it and pour new or other flooring under patio
Good luck
 
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v6toy4x

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I can handle getting all the engineering my biggest problem is determining where the pipes are.

Gonna call my mark and locate guy and see if he has an AML pro high freq radio-wave detector, my plumber says they work through concrete??
Supposed to be way better than GPR for pvc?

Anyone have any experience with these?

1623902439061.png
 

FreeBird236

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I can handle getting all the engineering my biggest problem is determining where the pipes are.

Gonna call my mark and locate guy and see if he has an AML pro high freq radio-wave detector, my plumber says they work through concrete??
Supposed to be way better than GPR for pvc?

Anyone have any experience with these?

View attachment 1014696
Not trying to sound negative, but hard to imagine that technology has improve so much since I did some locating 10 years ago, that this thing is going to be able to handle the possible mosaic of multiple lines running together and every which way. I guessing that a very experienced operator with this device might be able to give some general info, but maybe technology has really improved. Good luck, nice yard.
 

rivermobster

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We did a huge span in my backyard patio. Steel posts and gluelam beams. Everything got covered in wood.

Very happy with the results.
 

DirtyWhiteDog

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Some very good advice above. Pool lines are pretty random setting depending onthe guy who ran them, sometimes buried in the gunite sometimes a foot out. Same with the pool light electrical. Get an infrared camera attachment for your phone, turn on pool pump righr after sunset and you can get a pretty good idea of where the pool lines are
 

v6toy4x

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Some very good advice above. Pool lines are pretty random setting depending onthe guy who ran them, sometimes buried in the gunite sometimes a foot out. Same with the pool light electrical. Get an infrared camera attachment for your phone, turn on pool pump righr after sunset and you can get a pretty good idea of where the pool lines are

This sounds worth trying just to have a new toy!

Thx
 

v6toy4x

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Not trying to sound negative, but hard to imagine that technology has improve so much since I did some locating 10 years ago, that this thing is going to be able to handle the possible mosaic of multiple lines running together and every which way. I guessing that a very experienced operator with this device might be able to give some general info, but maybe technology has really improved. Good luck, nice yard.

Almost the answer I got today, I am going to try anyway just to see.
 

HOOTER SLED-

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I can handle getting all the engineering my biggest problem is determining where the pipes are.

Gonna call my mark and locate guy and see if he has an AML pro high freq radio-wave detector, my plumber says they work through concrete??
Supposed to be way better than GPR for pvc?

Anyone have any experience with these?

View attachment 1014696
Lol....good luck with that. Some of those locators just wanna pick up everything. Not sure of the features of this one...but I would only trust one that can verify strength of signal....and thats only if you are trying g to locate something with a tracer wire....which, I highly doubt they ran tracer wire with pvc pool pipe...lol.
 

samsah33

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make sure the roof can support an appropriate number of drunks that will be jumping off of it...
 

v6toy4x

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We did a huge span in my backyard patio. Steel posts and gluelam beams. Everything got covered in wood.

Very happy with the results.


Good to know!

Raised the ridge to 17' reduced slope to 6&12, struct guy is going to try a 31-1/2 x 5-1/2 GLB, steel columns, at the full 48' span on a 4x4 spread ftg, 24" of concrete bottom of footing 3' below finish grade. That puts the bottom of the GLB at approx 10' which works. If it can go the whole 48' I am good, it puts the footings outside of pool concrete by a few feet and if I hit lines there I can just re route in the lawn.

I am pretty sure he can make that work, it is our standard tilt up interior column detail for 48-50 spans.
I was hoping to be working with smaller members to minimize the size of equipment I need to be utilizing, should have known better!
The footings at the house will be 24x24 so I will build out the base of the columns to cover to sawcut and pourback.

The one closest to the house and pool equipment is the one that is now problematic, but I dont have a problem with pulling that first piece of sidewalk if I hit something to repair it. If the pour back does not match it isn't part of the patio??
 

v6toy4x

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Lol....good luck with that. Some of those locators just wanna pick up everything. Not sure of the features of this one...but I would only trust one that can verify strength of signal....and thats only if you are trying g to locate something with a tracer wire....which, I highly doubt they ran tracer wire with pvc pool pipe...lol.

I agree, if we can do a full 48" span at the pool it puts the footings in the lawn which hopefully limits the chances of hitting something, but if I do i can re route in the lawn.
 

HOOTER SLED-

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You can maybe get a line tracer to use with that locator....but you will have to open a spot in the line to insert....hopefully there won't be a lot of elbows between where you wanna locate it. May be a pain in the ass trying to insert past those. Witching stick can be your friends sometimes...lol
 

Ultra912

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can you elaborate
-minimum distance from pool?
-do you just mean sitting on top of the existing slab?

thx
Yes, minimum distance from pool
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this unless it's not an issue in AZ. My patio had a setback of 10'. Wanted it closer but with a permit it wasn't allowed,,,,but that's in Cali
 
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v6toy4x

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Yes, minimum distance from pool
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this unless it's not an issue in AZ. My patio had a setback of 10'. Wanted it closer but with a permit it wasn't allowed,,,,but that's in Cali

Well crap,
What part of cali? municipal city or county?
I have a couple thoughts on how to skin that one, depending.
 

boatpi

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FYi, for you guys building a large span patio cover, steel us huge $$. I have beams, powder coated that span 33'. All 100% aluminum.

Generally they need to be in footings, but not always. Our material was just installed a the LA Clippers training camp in El Segundo, it is 32' square free standing.
 
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Ultra912

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Well crap,
What part of cali? municipal city or county?
I have a couple thoughts on how to skin that one, depending.
City/Municipal
I'm one of the cities Planning Commissioners and couldn't even get away with it.
 

v6toy4x

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City/Municipal
I'm one of the cities Planning Commissioners and couldn't even get away with it.

covered in your local municipal code or calif code?
I see a ton of cabana houses in so cal with the edge of the roof line at, or, over overhanging the pool, some new const?

Are you closed in on more than 1 side?
I will have a rough arch/struct plan sketched out by end of next week, then off to the county plan checker with a list of questions,
I will play the unknowing bewildered home owner!
 

v6toy4x

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FYi, for you guys building a large span patio cover, steel us huge $$. I have beams, powder coated that span 33'. All 100% aluminum.

Generally they need to be in footings, but not always. Our material was just installed a the LA Clippers training camp in El Segundo, it is 32' square free standing.

42-48 clear span with GLB is looking like the route, I am curious about your aluminum beams? do you have a link to share?
 

boatpi

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Yes our website is 4kaluminum.com. Look at the Instagram it has a lot more photos a couple of them done with the 33 footers. As a sidenote there’s no powder coat in production facility in North America that we know of that can coat one piece longer than 27 feet. based on my experience of having my house in Lake Havasu for many years, we elected to go with amma 2604 certified powder coat we give it a 20 year warranty but essentially it’s good for life.

we actually have the capability of doing up to 37 feet but we elected to keep it to 32 or 33 footers. Also generally supported by our 8 inch post, all engineered, no rust ever.
 

Ultra912

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covered in your local municipal code or calif code?
I see a ton of cabana houses in so cal with the edge of the roof line at, or, over overhanging the pool, some new const?

Are you closed in on more than 1 side?
I will have a rough arch/struct plan sketched out by end of next week, then off to the county plan checker with a list of questions,
I will play the unknowing bewildered home owner!
Not sure. I'm also a concrete contractor with several pool builders as clients. They have said the same. It's the type of thing that may be mandated by the state just like the fence height, sliding glass door alarm, drain grates etc;
I would move forward just like you describe or just do it. Patios are un-permitted more than anything else
 

Melloyellovector

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Not sure. I'm also a concrete contractor with several pool builders as clients. They have said the same. It's the type of thing that may be mandated by the state just like the fence height, sliding glass door alarm, drain grates etc;
I would move forward just like you describe or just do it. Patios are un-permitted more than anything else
Not sure what city in CA, but we do permitted patio covers closer then 10ft all the time. Most standard engineering covers 3ft setback on structures. With additional engineering you can do posts/footings inside the pool.
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Ultra912

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I'm referring to adding a patio on an existing pool and deck. I know that if done with the initial construction and engineering your good.
 

Melloyellovector

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I'm referring to adding a patio on an existing pool and deck. I know that if done with the initial construction and engineering your good.
Still no 10ft set back that Iv ever seen, new or existing. Maybe if using basic city details. Engineered plans can be as close as you want
 

v6toy4x

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Not sure what city in CA, but we do permitted patio covers closer then 10ft all the time. Most standard engineering covers 3ft setback on structures. With additional engineering you can do posts/footings inside the pool. View attachment 1016514 View attachment 1016515 View attachment 1016516

I must have completley missed this, but this is the exact stuff i was hoping for, thanks.

I have downsized after laying out my kitchen/bar, seating and patio table. Hopefully simplifying.
 
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