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Sleek-Jet

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Battery power storage is a joke. Acres of batteries provide very little capacity and run time. The battery pictured below is rated at 300 megawatts and 450 megawatt hours, which will power about 375 homes for 1½ hours. Scale that up to the 120,000,000 homes and apartments in the United States, and 320,000 battery plants would be needed to provide that 90 minutes of power.

One hundred fifty battery plants the same size of this one would run SCE and PG&E's peak summer load for about fifteen minutes. Construction and grid integration would take years and cost hundreds of billions. After fifteen minutes, what will California residents, businesses, and manufacturing plants use for electricity?

I'm curious about another thing. When solar and battery plants requiring untold square miles of land are built, are they going to be subjected to the same scrutiny for environmental compliance that fossil fuel related projects undergo? Will the EPA demand the studies include future impacts on global warming like they do for refineries, thermal power plants, and pipelines?

The day is coming when the Southwest's pristine deserts will be defaced with these abominations. What about endangered species like the horned toad and barrel cactus? Will the same rules apply to so-called renewable energy?

telsa-megpack-project-victorian-big-battery--scaled.jpg

I think your math is off... 450 MWh is 450,000 kWh. I don't see those 375 homes using a 1000 kWh in 90 minutes. If they do, I'd love to have a couple on my system. :D

But your main point is correct; battery and renewables have to be overbuilt by about a factor of 2 to approach the reliability of a traditional thermal generation.
 

TCHB

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This
It's going to be ugly. The only hope I see is that conservatives take over Congress in the fall and a Republican president is elected in 2024.
Texas failed because it was not set up for extreme weather conditions. They could have prevented the outages but Billions would have to be spent on mitigating rusts due to extreme weather.
 

Sleek-Jet

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How much is a MWh on a gas fired 50mw plant all costs included at fuel cost of $6. How many hours will a 50 MW run at max peak power? I guess you have never been around a large 750 MW plant with a large failure. You will not even get a crew of 50 with tooling for 2 days. Repairs can take months on a turbine failure. I was responsible for over 4,000 MWs and never had a 5 hour hour repair when a major repair.

Right now it is about $100 MWh...
 

TCHB

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LOL wait until 25,000,000 electric cars plug in at night pulling 240.


🤡🤡🤡
The power plants would love this. Right now when everyone goes to bed the plants ramp down to low load operation or shut down and restart. Most plants are designed to run at higher loads. The entire grid on average capacity factor is below 50%..
 

Xring01

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How much is a MWh on a gas fired 50mw plant all costs included at fuel cost of $6. How many hours will a 50 MW run at max peak power? I guess you have never been around a large 750 MW plant with a large failure. You will not even get a crew of 50 with tooling for 2 days. Repairs can take months on a turbine failure. I was responsible for over 4,000 MWs and never had a 5 hour hour repair when a major repair.
I have been in every large power plant in CA at one time or another. I have been in SONGS many times, Moss Landing, Palo Verdi…
I have been to most of the major renewable plants in Ca, and alot in the West, and alot in Texas, NM and all over the mid west.
I spent 8 years in the Navy and alot of that time on a Nuke Powered Submarine…
I have been in the Electric Utility industry since 1996… Jul to be exact, which is when I got out of the Navy.

My crews are the ones who repaired the PG&E substation that got shot up about 6 years ago… the name of that substation will come back to me shortly, my crews rebuilt the SDGE IV substation after a earth quake, and many other projects over 25 years.

I have been to lots of transformer failures and provided alot of the intel on the failure analysis, helped SDGE with their entire “Condition Assessment” program on the evaluation criteria of its Substation Assets.

Provided the transformer at 25mw BESS for SDGE in the Escondido substation… talk about a freaking disaster, that battery trips off line about once a month, provided well over 650 transformers to PG&E, 200 to SDGE. Lets not get into all of the EHV Cable projects that I have completed on the west coast. Or the SCADA systems, metering, monitoring, breakers, switchgear etc etc etc…

My key customers over the last 25 years have been SDGE, SCE PGE, AES, NRG, PATTERN, ORIGIS, EDF, etc etc etc etc etc. Yes I ahve worked with just about every consultant in the industry…

Should I keep going????

I remembered… it was the Metcalf substation… at PG&E… had to be a insider who shot it up, because they knew exactly what vault the fiber comm lines where in.. They went in their first, cut all the fiber, before they shot up the substation. My crews where onsite in about 6 hours, and we 2 full crews running withing 24 hours, and 4 crews within 48 hours.
 
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rrrr

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I think your math is off... 450 MWh is 450,000 kWh. I don't see those 375 homes using a 1000 kWh in 90 minutes. If they do, I'd love to have a couple on my system. :D

But your main point is correct; battery and renewables have to be overbuilt by about a factor of 2 to approach the reliability of a traditional thermal generation.
I did all of that math in my head, which was probably a bad idea. A decimal point was slipped.
 

TCHB

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That is not including capital cost, debt and O&M.
Plants that have world class heat rates below 7,000 get great fuel economy but the are expensive to purchase and maintain. If you want 100 %reliability of the grid you would double the installed MWs by 100%.. Expand the grid in California to 100,000 MWs capacity now you are ready for just about anything,oh yes you need to underground 66KV and above. It just takes electricity rates to pay for the upgrades. I have found out engineering we can do it but the $$$ comes into place.
 

TCHB

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You should follow this link. It is very interesting to see how the grid works on the supply side and demand. Ok back to DCBs
 

Done-it-again

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Wow, in the last 2 weeks, I have been reading articles almost daily on the same subjects, water and the power grid…
Read articles on Grand Cooley Damn, Lake Powell, Lake Oroville, Lake Shasta, Colorado river, Lake Mead… all the hydro that comes off them, versus the water capacity they are currently at.

For those of you on the West Coast, I highly recommend you buy a back up generator soon. If you already have one, it might be a good time to do maintenance on it. Ensure its ready to.

I expect we will have alot of outage this summer. This brief article pretty much somes up the stuff I have been saying on RDP for a few years now.


View attachment 1114189
Ca will just buy/ take more power from the AZ Nuke plant and in turn charge customers in CA more $$ for power. In turn CA politicians can call themselves green.
 

Xring01

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Ca will just buy/ take more power from the AZ Nuke plant and in turn charge customers in CA more $$ for power. In turn CA politicians can call themselves green.
Its the same thing in the EV Market or Solar Panel Markets…
The vast majority of all Batterys made for the EV Market come from China, but China uses mostly Coal fired plants for its power. And I believe they are energizing 1 brand new coal plant a week minimum….

Same thing with Solar panels….

But its GREEN…. Right…

C8CD5250-B2AE-410F-B634-FDA9CBFA6B8A.jpeg
5290101E-9CEA-4B4C-B2B1-DE7BDBF13ED2.jpeg
 
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JB in so cal

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Its the same thing in the EV Market or Solar Panel Markets…
The vast majority of all Batterys made for the EV Market come from China, but China uses mostly Coal fired plants for its power. And I believe they are energizing 1 brand new coal plant a week minimum….

Same thing with Solar panels….

But its GREEN…. Right…
In that same regard...

Driving home through the wind farm in Indio yesterday, not only were only about 10% of the turbines spinning in 50 mph winds, but the amount of oil leaking down from the gearbox assemblies was horrendous.

Green, indeed!
 

farmo83

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I used to work at a residential power company in long term forecasting. We did tons of surveys and market analysis and the amount of money people were willing to spend on updating the grid and plants was roughly 200 dollars per year. What this means is it's a hard sell to upgrade plants, winterize them( I live in Texas) etc. At least in Texas that maybe more now after snowmeggeddon.

Also the power industry is not immune to supply issues. My old man builds and maintains gas fired engines used in lots of power plants. He's waiting on 100 million dollars in parts.
 

DaveC

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Man, the tards got it all figured out…. Just ask them…🙄

Glad I don’t own or need an AC.

I need to find a good electrician
 

pronstar

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I’ve been saying for a while if these politicians were serious about “climate change” they’d be pushing for more nuclear power plants.

The former head of Germany, Gerhard Schröder, was backed by greenies, took nuclear off the table and pushed natural gas.

So today, German industry is heavily reliant on natural gas.

Oh, and Schröder also sits on the board of the two major Russian gas companies 🤣
 

Cobalt232

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If the power is off, how long can natural gas supply be met for generators/heat? In other words, does the natural gas providor need electricity?
 

Xring01

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If the power is off, how long can natural gas supply be met for generators/heat? In other words, does the natural gas providor need electricity?
Depends on the regulations of that Nat Gas Service provider…
Texas found out the hard way, there regulations on it where to relaxed… They changed that.

To the effect that all Nat Gas facility that provide Nat Gas as a service require back up generation.
 

Hydroman55

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This can all be solved with one word NUCLEAR.

1. Build smaller scale plants and more of them.
2. “Copy exact” same standard parts and operational procedures.
3. Waste goes to the middle of Nevada where it’s been geologically stable for millions of years.

Energy problem solved but the wackos don’t listen.
 

Xring01

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This can all be solved with one word NUCLEAR.

1. Build smaller scale plants and more of them.
2. “Copy exact” same standard parts and operational procedures.
3. Waste goes to the middle of Nevada where it’s been geologically stable for millions of years.

Energy problem solved but the wackos don’t listen.

Your funny…. NV has repeatly shot down any mention of storing Nuke Waste for 30 years or more.
Gonna be kinda hard to store it there when they will not allow you to.
 

hallett21

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If the power is off, how long can natural gas supply be met for generators/heat? In other words, does the natural gas providor need electricity?
We sell/install backup generators. I try to educate people on how your generator is only as good as its fuel source.

Majority of customers want an automatic transfer switch and a generator that can run the entire home.

But I’ve set my mom, FIL/MIL and other family members up for portable gasoline generators with a 10 circuit manual transfer switch. It’s a pain in the neck to setup (roll out the generator, plug it in, flip the switches etc), but you can always find gas/diesel.

If you’re tied to city NG for your generator you’re still relying on the utility.
 

Hydroman55

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Your funny…. NV has repeatly shot down any mention of storing Nuke Waste for 30 years or more.
Gonna be kinda hard to store it there when they will not allow you to.
I’m aware of your comment….maybe the attitude will change when Las Vegas has no reliable power in 120 degree heat.
 

mjc

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Your funny…. NV has repeatly shot down any mention of storing Nuke Waste for 30 years or more.
Gonna be kinda hard to store it there when they will not allow you to.
And to think the are hundreds of already nuke contaminated holes in the ground from old underground bomb testing.
 

Nanu/Nanu

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@mesquito_creek do you have any light to shed on this topic?

I'm just the monkey in the air that builds the things they want built.

My biggest heartache is there is coal plants going offline and the replenishment rate of power doesn't seem to be there. Im for a balanced energy profile much like all things in life. If you focus and invest in to one thing too much you lose sight of other priorities.

The other thing that doesn't seem to sit well with me is the power of big brother. Trump couldn't even seem to shut them down.

When people realize that they are not God maybe things will change. Until then I guess they'll keep standing in front of his master piece assuming people enjoy listening to them talk about it versus letting people take in it's awesomeness.
 

mesquito_creek

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@mesquito_creek do you have any light to shed on this topic?

I'm just the monkey in the air that builds the things they want built.

My biggest heartache is there is coal plants going offline and the replenishment rate of power doesn't seem to be there. Im for a balanced energy profile much like all things in life. If you focus and invest in to one thing too much you lose sight of other priorities.

The other thing that doesn't seem to sit well with me is the power of big brother. Trump couldn't even seem to shut them down.

When people realize that they are not God maybe things will change. Until then I guess they'll keep standing in front of his master piece assuming people enjoy listening to them talk about it versus letting people take in it's awesomeness.

Yes… I am wondering if I can design a practical water filtration system (lake water) for my liveaboard cruiser so I can stay out on the lake even longer without re-provisioning. I am adding even more lifepo4 to my boat combined with some ice making capabilities to deal with no gas at dangling rope.

Then I can be out of cell/internet range even longer and not be tempted into reading threads like this for even longer extended periods.
 

Xtrmwakeboarder

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We sell/install backup generators. I try to educate people on how your generator is only as good as its fuel source.

Majority of customers want an automatic transfer switch and a generator that can run the entire home.

But I’ve set my mom, FIL/MIL and other family members up for portable gasoline generators with a 10 circuit manual transfer switch. It’s a pain in the neck to setup (roll out the generator, plug it in, flip the switches etc), but you can always find gas/diesel.

If you’re tied to city NG for your generator you’re still relying on the utility.
Where do you sell/install? Is there a way to do an ATS for the main genny, and then a manual for a small gasoline genny for redundancy if there is no NG "As was the case in TX"
 

Xring01

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We sell/install backup generators. I try to educate people on how your generator is only as good as its fuel source.

Majority of customers want an automatic transfer switch and a generator that can run the entire home.

But I’ve set my mom, FIL/MIL and other family members up for portable gasoline generators with a 10 circuit manual transfer switch. It’s a pain in the neck to setup (roll out the generator, plug it in, flip the switches etc), but you can always find gas/diesel.

If you’re tied to city NG for your generator you’re still relying on the utility.

How big of units are you installing that are ran on gasoline?
How many hours of run time are they getting per gallon?

The vast majority of the peeps that I have seen do whole house run on Nat Gas or Propane if there is no Nat Gas. In addition Nat Gas used to be alot cheaper than Propane, I am not so sure thats the case today.
 

CLdrinker

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This can all be solved with one word NUCLEAR.

1. Build smaller scale plants and more of them.
2. “Copy exact” same standard parts and operational procedures.
3. Waste goes to the middle of Nevada where it’s been geologically stable for millions of years.

Energy problem solved but the wackos don’t listen.

How did the Nuclear plant work out for that 1 California utility?
 

CLdrinker

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All I can say is.

If you can’t beat them join them😉
 

Xring01

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I’m aware of your comment….maybe the attitude will change when Las Vegas has no reliable power in 120 degree heat.

Take a wild guess where all the the Nuke waste from Nuke plants is stored at in the U.S. right now. Even the de commissioned Nuke plants…. At that facility, because there is no place in the US that allows for the storage of Nuke waste….. and there are transportion laws that also prohibit transporting it, to a degree.

In addition to that, if pretty much impossible to find places overseas that will allow you to store it there..

To make matters worse… you can‘t ship it thru the Panama Canal, and there are many maritime laws that also slow down shipping Nuke waste in the oceans.

Basically the regulations right now, are so strict and its just not worth the financial risk to build a new Nuke Plant in the US today. It would literally take an act of congress, to force new regulations relaxing those restrictions, and setting up a site to store Nuke waste, before I think any Company would remotely try to build a new Nuke Plant.

Me… as someone who lived on a Nuke Powered Submarine for years… I am all for Nuke power, but from the business stand point. I dont see it happening, financial risk is not worth the small if any ROI, considering to have to store the waste for infinity, and you may not be allowed to repower that plant after 25 years…. look at what happened to Diablo Canyon and SONGs and many others… but PG&E and SCE are still paying significant bills storing wasted for a very long time into the future…
 
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hallett21

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How big of units are you installing that are ran on gasoline?
How many hours of run time are they getting per gallon?

The vast majority of the peeps that I have seen do whole house run on Nat Gas or Propane if there is no Nat Gas. In addition Nat Gas used to be alot cheaper than Propane, I am not so sure thats the case today.
Honda 7,000. Unfortunately they are almost impossible to get. I bought 2 of the ones @TPC purchased just to have on hand.

On a full tank we’re seeing 8-12 hour run times.

Like I said they are not as convenient to run but you can always find fuel. Meaning grab a hose and siphon out of cars if need be.

I think there will be a lot of upset folks with built in backup generators come the big earthquake.

Edit: also if you need to head somewhere you can take the Honda. Generac and Kohler ain’t going no where lol
 
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Hydroman55

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Take a wild guess where all the the Nuke waste from Nuke plants is stored at in the U.S. right now. Even the de commissioned Nuke plants…. At that facility, because there is no place in the US that allows for the storage of Nuke waste….. and there are transportion laws that also prohibit transporting it, to a degree.

In addition to that, if pretty much impossible to find places overseas that will allow you to store it there..

To make matters worse… you can‘t ship it thru the Panama Canal, and there are many maritime laws that also slow down shipping Nuke waste in the oceans.

Basically the regulations right now, are so strict and its just not worth the financial risk to build a new Nuke Plant in the US today. It would literally take an act of congress, to force new regulations relaxing those restrictions, and setting up a site to store Nuke waste, before I think any Company would remotely try to build a new Nuke Plant.

Me… as someone who lived on a Nuke Powered Submarine for years… I am all for Nuke power, but from the business stand point. I dont see it happening, financial risk is not worth the small if any ROI, considering to have to store the waste for infinity, and you may not be allowed to repower that plant after 25 years…. look at what happened to Diablo Canyon and SONGs and many others… but PG&E and SCE are still paying significant bills storing wasted for a very long time into the future…
All correct sir….At the end of the day regulations must be reasonable and smart for anything.
 

Xring01

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Honda 7,000. Unfortunately they are almost impossible to get. I bought 2 of the ones @TPC purchased just to have on hand.

On a full tank we’re seeing 8-12 hour run times.

Like I said they are not as convenient to run but you can always find fuel. Meaning grab a hose and siphon out of cars if need be.

I think there will be a lot of upset folks with built in backup generators come the big earthquake.

Edit: also if you need to head somewhere you can take the Honda. Generac and Kohler ain’t going no where lol

Only Bringing this up, because Most people dont realize the average hair dryer that woman use is typically 2000 watts alone. But 7kW may get the basics done if there are no heat or a/c requirements. THe moment you throw that into the mix… then 7kW is probably gonna trip offline pretty quickly with the AC or heater kicks on.

A key reason for a back up generators besides the freezer, it living comfortable during a power outage.

To me… there is a huge difference between Whole house back up generators, and portables…. Apples and oranges… the solve different problems

Generac makes alot of smaller size portable from 1000-17,500 watts… I bought a 3300 Generac Portable a few weeks ago for my 16ft enclosed trailer…to replace a yamaha 1100… which was to small. The Generac is whisper quiet compared to Honda or Yamahas. Thats not why I bought, it was something that I learned by firing it up. Seriously its shocking how much more quiet it is.

I will be shopping soon for a whole house back up generator. As some of you know, I just relocated from SoCal to just outside of Reno NV. Once I get a fence moved, a new storage shed put in… then I will be looking for a Generac or Kohler house system. For now the 3300 and the 1100 should suit my needs.
image.jpg
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Justfishing

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So this summer when outages hit. The poor and elderly will suffer the most. How will people react to thier parents or grand parents dying because we are closing power plants. China continues to build coal plants but we must shutter ours.
 

monkeyswrench

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Only Bringing this up, because Most people dont realize the average hair dryer that woman use is typically 2000 watts alone. But 7kW may get the basics done if there are no heat or a/c requirements. THe moment you throw that into the mix… then 7kW is probably gonna trip offline pretty quickly with the AC or heater kicks on.

A key reason for a back up generators besides the freezer, it living comfortable during a power outage.

To me… there is a huge difference between Whole house back up generators, and portables…. Apples and oranges… the solve different problems

Generac makes alot of smaller size portable from 1000-17,500 watts… I bought a 3300 Generac Portable a few weeks ago for my 16ft enclosed trailer…to replace a yamaha 1100… which was to small. The Generac is whisper quiet compared to Honda or Yamahas. Thats not why I bought, it was something that I learned by firing it up. Seriously its shocking how much more quiet it is.

I will be shopping soon for a whole house back up generator. As some of you know, I just relocated from SoCal to just outside of Reno NV. Once I get a fence moved, a new storage shed put in… then I will be looking for a Generac or Kohler house system. For now the 3300 and the 1100 should suit my needs.
View attachment 1114678 View attachment 1114679
Been researching a lot on solar and batteries for backup. Had no idea a coffee pot took so much wattage! Cowboy coffee it will be.
 

traquer

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There is a whole lot more to that story than you can imagine.
If you live in Texas, then you need to do the digging yourself. I highly recommend the 101 page report written by the University of Texas Austin report on this. Its not light reading, but digs into the subject comprehensively.

Texas basically has an open market into Ercot for Energy, which has alot of pro’s, but some very very very bad cons. They assumed this framework would get them thru any situation. Obviously they where wrong.
But to shorten a long story. Texas does have to much dependence on Wind Energy. That has caused significant problems to Texas Grid on multiple occasions.
In addition the cold snap in Texas last year, made them realize the Nat Gas systems is not up to the standards that it should be, especially in cold weather.
So building a new Nat Gas Power plant is not gonna solve the problem, when they cant deliver the Nat Gas to the plant in cold times of the year.

So you have a financial problem, a renewable problem, a nat gas problem, and not enough Nat Gas plants problem. I can keep going, but I think I got my point across.
Well shit.. Thanks for the insight, definitely got your point across. Some good info from a few others as well.
 

JFMFG

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It’s became a fucking 3rd world shit hole. Now reading about baby formula shortages. Rolling blackouts and can’t feed your infants. I wish we could fire every single one of these politicians along with the PUC board members.
The formula deal is no joke. Luckily when I read about it I had my wife buy a 6 month supply. Hate to be the hoarder but if it’s my kid or someone’s kid it’s gonna be mine getting fed. Costco and Sam’s both completely out.
 

CarolynandBob

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But the weather is great. J/K

I have a propane/gas generator for a back up. I have a 100 lb propane tank. I may get another. I also have a portable a/c unit that I can use in a small room to keep it comfortable. I had to use the generator to power my shop before I had the electricity run to it. I used a 20lb bottle and was amazed at how long it ran.
 

farmo83

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I live in Houston and would take my chances on having nat gas then finding gasoline after a hurricane.
 

spectra3279

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Battery power storage is a joke. Acres of batteries provide very little capacity and run time. The battery pictured below is rated at 300 megawatts and 450 megawatt hours, which will power about 375 homes for 1½ hours. Scale that up to the 120,000,000 homes and apartments in the United States, and 320,000 battery plants would be needed to provide that 90 minutes of power.

One hundred fifty battery plants the same size of this one would run SCE and PG&E's peak summer load for about fifteen minutes. Construction and grid integration would take years and cost hundreds of billions. After fifteen minutes, what will California residents, businesses, and manufacturing plants use for electricity?

I'm curious about another thing. When solar and battery plants requiring untold square miles of land are built, are they going to be subjected to the same scrutiny for environmental compliance that fossil fuel related projects undergo? Will the EPA demand the studies include future impacts on global warming like they do for refineries, thermal power plants, and pipelines?

The day is coming when the Southwest's pristine deserts will be defaced with these abominations. What about endangered species like the horned toad and barrel cactus? Will the same rules apply to so-called renewable energy?

telsa-megpack-project-victorian-big-battery--scaled.jpg


And how many more solar and wind turbines are needed to charge all those batteries?
 

spectra3279

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Take a wild guess where all the the Nuke waste from Nuke plants is stored at in the U.S. right now. Even the de commissioned Nuke plants…. At that facility, because there is no place in the US that allows for the storage of Nuke waste….. and there are transportion laws that also prohibit transporting it, to a degree.

In addition to that, if pretty much impossible to find places overseas that will allow you to store it there..

To make matters worse… you can‘t ship it thru the Panama Canal, and there are many maritime laws that also slow down shipping Nuke waste in the oceans.

Basically the regulations right now, are so strict and its just not worth the financial risk to build a new Nuke Plant in the US today. It would literally take an act of congress, to force new regulations relaxing those restrictions, and setting up a site to store Nuke waste, before I think any Company would remotely try to build a new Nuke Plant.

Me… as someone who lived on a Nuke Powered Submarine for years… I am all for Nuke power, but from the business stand point. I dont see it happening, financial risk is not worth the small if any ROI, considering to have to store the waste for infinity, and you may not be allowed to repower that plant after 25 years…. look at what happened to Diablo Canyon and SONGs and many others… but PG&E and SCE are still paying significant bills storing wasted for a very long time into the future…


As one is currently being built in Tennessee
 

Sleek-Jet

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I have no problems with running a 6000 watt split phase 240 inverter all solar… and the beauty is I can easily add another to make it a 12kw solution if I out grow it.
Curious what is your panel DC output, 7500W?
 

TCHB

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It is pretty funny when you see a new large RV garage with 4 minl splits on the side and everyone expects the utility to power it with no increase in rates. When we went to CPUC customer groups wanted to keep the cost down! The hard thing is to build the grid for 20 days of high peak demand when most of the year the power plants are at 20% capacity factor or lower.
 
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