Powertrain Programming

[racerden]

This is not opionated, just an FYI to fellow RDP-er's:

A letter dated December 8, 2008 from Mark R. La Neve, GM NA Vice President stated any vehicle that has aftermarket powertrain & propulsion conversions will void the GM Powertrain Limited Warranty. This includes some aftermarket manufacturers claim to be "EPA Certified," "California Air Resources Board (CARB) Certified," emissions compliant., etc.
Also, GM Technical Bulletin #09-00-89-016 dated March 31, 2009 is available to provide retail and wholesale service personnel with the policies/procedures that support the suspicion of tampering to a vehicle's electrical, chassis/body or propulsion system. It basically says when a GM service department identifies an suspected vehicle for tampering, they are to identify this VIN with GM and get paid for their documentation efforts.
As a GM Service Manager this is a very real deal. GM wil reinforce their positions with the new dealer agreements. You can bet Ford and the rest of the manufacturers are close to follow if they haven't already.
Basically, leave it alone and drive it as intended or take a big chance when you bring it in for warranty work.
Hope it helps.
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Prilosec withdraw

 

[RiverDave]

So this is in regard to chips, lifts, or if you have a diesel the "edge" and edge with attitude etc?

RD

 

[racerden]

So this is in regard to chips, lifts, or if you have a diesel the "edge" and edge with attitude etc?

RD

Yea RD, it applies to just about everything that changes powertrain. Examples:
a. Lifts change driveline angles hence transmission output shaft bushing/shaft & u-joint premature wear.
b. Giant tires cause premature axle hub wear and transmission longevity concerns
c. Gas & diesel programming changes mapping of fuel, boost, injector timing, ignition timing etc which can cause premature engine wear, transmission and rear axle failures.
Even something as simple as a cat-back system change could envoke warranty problems if the dealership was to ID the VIN to GM. Just so you know, GM now has programming that will ID a PCM (computer) that has been programmed with aftermarket software. This wasn't achieved until late 2008. Unfortunately, it's the real deal and with the new GM Dealership agreeements coming in 2010 (to those of us who got a good letter) you can bet there will be something that says we are required to report these 'suspected tamperings' when the vehicle arrives for warranty work.
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Party Live

 

[pronstar]

Sounds to me like they are doing everything they can to void your warranty, which saves the company $$$.

Technically, this has always been the policy of most MFR's. But most didn't really care, so long as the mods were reasonable. After all, the dealer gets paid by the factory for warranty repairs anyways. I know some Dodge dealers are "tuner friendly" while others are not.

But dealers didn't have a financial incentive to turn into whistleblowers until now.

I would bet that regional factory reps will be eyeballing warranty repairs a lot more closely as well.

 

[AEA]

Another way to look at it could be: they want to warranty the vehicle they sold to the customer, not the one the customer built after the sale.

 

[Flat Broke]

If you want to talk about oppressive programming/warranty policies Subaru of America is pretty crappy about denying claims and actively looking for programming on vehicles. That being said, the overt nature of Subie's behavior created a market for programming that was undetectable to the factory. Cobb Tuning has done very well with regard to adapting to other engine management platforms outside Subaru. If the GM warranty scare (which is older news if you cruise the vette or TBSS boards) causes a marked dip in PCM service sales, perhaps Cobb would get into the game with an Accessport for the GM PCMs. The way they write to memory is unique, and can be undone on other vehicles while still leaving the tell tale characteristics of tampering such as engine hours etc in place. Trust me, if an Accessport that dumps back to stock programming can beat investigation into the ECM at Subaru, the guys at Cobb should have no problem keeping GM PCM tuning transparent to the guys at GM.

All that being said, I somewhat agree with GM's policy; though I think the implemenation needs to be reworked. Those that don't mod cars shouldn't bear the added expense of warranty work for people who shred rear ends, toast trannies, and blow top ends on performance orriented models. However, I believe GM should have to prove that the alteration caused a specific failure or at least demonstrate plausibility before denying a claim. The issues raised above are valid. But if I were to put a tune on my 5.3 to get a little better economy and firmer shifts, then my fan clutch takes a crap, I shouldn't be SOL for a repair that is unrelated to the changes made to the vehicle. It's a crap policy, but how many free trannies and rear ends did GM cough up for guys that were basically tracking their car or truck and having the GM warranty act as their silent parts sponsor? GM has to do what they have to do to improve profitability.

Chris

 

[racerden]

If you want to talk about oppressive programming/warranty policies Subaru of America is pretty crappy about denying claims and actively looking for programming on vehicles. That being said, the overt nature of Subie's behavior created a market for programming that was undetectable to the factory. Cobb Tuning has done very well with regard to adapting to other engine management platforms outside Subaru. If the GM warranty scare (which is older news if you cruise the vette or TBSS boards) causes a marked dip in PCM service sales, perhaps Cobb would get into the game with an Accessport for the GM PCMs. The way they write to memory is unique, and can be undone on other vehicles while still leaving the tell tale characteristics of tampering such as engine hours etc in place. Trust me, if an Accessport that dumps back to stock programming can beat investigation into the ECM at Subaru, the guys at Cobb should have no problem keeping GM PCM tuning transparent to the guys at GM.

All that being said, I somewhat agree with GM's policy; though I think the implemenation needs to be reworked. Those that don't mod cars shouldn't bear the added expense of warranty work for people who shred rear ends, toast trannies, and blow top ends on performance orriented models. However, I believe GM should have to prove that the alteration caused a specific failure or at least demonstrate plausibility before denying a claim. The issues raised above are valid. But if I were to put a tune on my 5.3 to get a little better economy and firmer shifts, then my fan clutch takes a crap, I shouldn't be SOL for a repair that is unrelated to the changes made to the vehicle. It's a crap policy, but how many free trannies and rear ends did GM cough up for guys that were basically tracking their car or truck and having the GM warranty act as their silent parts sponsor? GM has to do what they have to do to improve profitability.

Chris

Well said Chris. In the past, I have seen many VIN's that have been graced by GM warranty that shouldn't have. In a way, I don't blame the manufacturers; very smart engineers develop their products to work in component harmony to last many years. When this is disrupted, longevity may be compromised. As for proving an alteration caused specific failure, don't hold your breath. The letter says it all.
Thanks
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Vapezilla Vaporizers

 

[Slow What]

It's a bunch of crap when dealership's CAN and DO take brand new truck's to the same place i do for lift's ect.. and they are good to go .. but if something happens to my truck i'll have to fight with them ..:grumble:



Consumers Bill of Rights



Your Rights to Personalize Your Vehicle

ARTICLE ONE:You have the Right to buy high-quality, reliable aftermarket performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options.

ARTICLE TWO:You have the Right to use high-quality aftermarket parts and know that your new car warranty claims will be honored. In fact, your vehicle dealer may not reject a warranty claim simply because an aftermarket product is present. A warranty denial under such circumstances may be proper only if an aftermarket part caused the failure being claimed.

ARTICLE THREE:You have the Right to install and use emissions-legal aftermarket performance parts without incurring hassles and onerous procedures during state vehicle emissions inspections.

ARTICLE FOUR:You have the Right to actively oppose any proposed (or existing) laws or regulations that will reduce your freedom to use aftermarket automotive parts and service or will curtail your ability to take part in the automotive hobbies of your choice.

ARTICLE FIVE:You have the Right to patronize independent retail stores and shops for vehicle parts and service. The U.S. aftermarket offers the world's finest selection of performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options. These aftermarket products satisfy the most discriminating customers seeking personalized vehicles for today's lifestyle.

The foregoing message is brought to you by the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA). If you would like our guidelines on what to do if your new car warranty is denied, check out the Warranty Denied? section of our web site.

 

[pronstar]

It's a bunch of crap when dealership's CAN and DO take brand new truck's to the same place i do for lift's ect.. and they are good to go .. but if something happens to my truck i'll have to fight with them ..:grumble:



Consumers Bill of Rights

You have to remember that SEMA is a trade group comprised largely of performance aftermarket companies.

Their "bill of rights" is sort of like the Magnussen-Moss act taken to the extreme.

Even the Magnussen-Moss act, as intended, is for aftermarket replacement parts, not necessarily aftermarket performance parts.


Some aftermarket items, like moderately larger wheels, really shouldn't affect your warranty. But some mods, like a tuner that dramatically increases power output, should have an affect. The MFR shouldn't be liable for a tranny that's seeing twice the torque.

 

[racerden]

It's a bunch of crap when dealership's CAN and DO take brand new truck's to the same place i do for lift's ect.. and they are good to go .. but if something happens to my truck i'll have to fight with them ..:grumble:



Consumers Bill of Rights



Your Rights to Personalize Your Vehicle

ARTICLE ONE:You have the Right to buy high-quality, reliable aftermarket performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options.

ARTICLE TWO:You have the Right to use high-quality aftermarket parts and know that your new car warranty claims will be honored. In fact, your vehicle dealer may not reject a warranty claim simply because an aftermarket product is present. A warranty denial under such circumstances may be proper only if an aftermarket part caused the failure being claimed.

ARTICLE THREE:You have the Right to install and use emissions-legal aftermarket performance parts without incurring hassles and onerous procedures during state vehicle emissions inspections.

ARTICLE FOUR:You have the Right to actively oppose any proposed (or existing) laws or regulations that will reduce your freedom to use aftermarket automotive parts and service or will curtail your ability to take part in the automotive hobbies of your choice.

ARTICLE FIVE:You have the Right to patronize independent retail stores and shops for vehicle parts and service. The U.S. aftermarket offers the world's finest selection of performance and specialty parts, accessories and styling options. These aftermarket products satisfy the most discriminating customers seeking personalized vehicles for today's lifestyle.

The foregoing message is brought to you by the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA). If you would like our guidelines on what to do if your new car warranty is denied, check out the Warranty Denied? section of our web site.

I can't agree with you more on the dealerships who have double standards. As for SEMA ARTICLES, who knows where that one will end up.
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Vaporite""

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Let's see....
GM is going to flag the vin of vehicles that come through for service and they "detect" modifications that might void the warranty.
These VIN's will be loaded into the GM database, as will the names of the owners of the vehicles, for future reference regarding warranty costs.
Now, GM is a partially owned subsidiary of the U.S. Gov'ment.
So, GM's computers are hooked to da gub'ments computers...
They don't like our trucks, or any vehicle we can fit a whole family of 4 in.
A vehhicle that can haul 4 and tow somethin'? Outta da question.
They wants us out of our rigs and into clean burning econoboxes tha can also serve as caskets if we get in a wreck....
I see a new list rolling off the fax in the Oval Orifice.
I see a new Czar.
The unauthorized vehicle modification Czar.


Just joking around, Dave, not being political....

 

[TPC]

If ya read in any of the performance forums, you'll find those that have had their warranties canceled.

We started to install the little lock-out 1 2 - 3 jumper on the 'Vette until we were warned against it.

Glad I checked in to it a little further.

 

[65 Sanger 440]

Just listen to gale banks, none of his stuff will void a factory warranty!! he falls back on the mm act and will tell you it is ok and to fight them you will win! yeh if you had his $$ to fight corp lawyers with!

Pretty much why I AM MY OWN WARRANTY STATION!