Question for the sparkys (electricians)

[DaveC]

I have a question about adding a sub-panel circuit (for A/C) and my main panel.

How is this done exactly? Does it have to go through the breakers? Or just from the main? Is A/C 110 or 220?

My main panel is completely full meaning that all breaker slots are full with existing circuits.

I have a 100 AMP panel with 12 breaker bays. The panel is full with existing circuits. My house was built in 1967.

My house does not have A/C but all I have to do is add a condenser but we need a sub panel added to make it work. I really don't want to have to install a new main breaker panel just to get the A/C as that would be super expensive. No?

In that case I guess I can delete my 220 electric dryer and replace it with gas dryer and we can use that slot in the panel.

Also I have to get someone in there to figure this out but I replaced a 220 circuit for the kitchen with a 110 circuit. So a dual breaker bay only has one switch now. Does that mean there is a vacancy for 110?

Do I need to post pictures?

I will have a licensed electrician do the work but I am having trouble finding someone to look at this to see if I should even bother.

I might even get a permit so I don't end up like poor old RD!!!

TIA!!

 

[hallett21]

If your panel is the original from 67 it’s time to replace.

Air Conditioning will be 240v unless we are talking about a small mini split unit.

To add a subpanel you would install a 2 pole breaker with proper sized breaker for the load and main panel.

There are what are called tandem breakers that take one breaker position and split it into 2. If your panel is from 1967 please do not do this.

I would suggest adding a new 200amp 20/40 space main panel. This updates your gear and gives you more space for the future.

The problem with adding the sub panel is you will need to run wire from the main to the new sub location. This will probably entail damaging drywall/siding/stucco etc.

At the end of all that you still have an old panel running the house.

Cost wise without looking, in SoCal we would be between 3-3.5k for a 200amp main panel swap and 1.6-2k for a sub panel add. This would be a permitted done correctly kind of job. Not neighbor Hank Hill down the street and a six pack.

Post some pics of your current set up.

Edit: if you’re considering solar down the road then you will have to upgrade your main panel anyways.


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[lbhsbz]

Out of curiosity, what’s wrong with a panel from the ‘60s if it’s not a Fed-pax/zinsco deal? Old Square D panel still no good? Why?

 

[Mandelon]

Cuz it is 50 years old.

Adding another 30 or 40 amp double will really put the panel at its maximum. Safer to upgrade and put in a new one.

 

[Spudsbud]

above,!!! + 1 x ten !
electeical overload = fire.
Dont skimp.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

If your panel is the original from 67 it’s time to replace.

Air Conditioning will be 240v unless we are talking about a small mini split unit.

To add a subpanel you would install a 2 pole breaker with proper sized breaker for the load and main panel.

There are what are called tandem breakers that take one breaker position and split it into 2. If your panel is from 1967 please do not do this.

I would suggest adding a new 200amp 20/40 space main panel. This updates your gear and gives you more space for the future.

The problem with adding the sub panel is you will need to run wire from the main to the new sub location. This will probably entail damaging drywall/siding/stucco etc.

At the end of all that you still have an old panel running the house.

Cost wise without looking, in SoCal we would be between 3-3.5k for a 200amp main panel swap and 1.6-2k for a sub panel add. This would be a permitted done correctly kind of job. Not neighbor Hank Hill down the street and a six pack.

Post some pics of your current set up.

Edit: if you’re considering solar down the road then you will have to upgrade your main panel anyways.


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Wondering how many states you are licensed in? Asking for a friend.

 

[lbhsbz]

Cuz it is 50 years old.

Adding another 30 or 40 amp double will really put the panel at its maximum. Safer to upgrade and put in a new one.

I didn’t realize electricity had evolved over the last 50 years. What are the new ones made out of?...since evidently copper bus bars in a steel enclosure are obsolete?

 

[hallett21]

Wondering how many states you are licensed in? Asking for a friend.

Sadly only CA lol


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[DaveC]

Just to clarify I have a newer panel at least for this area. By that I mean it actually has breakers. LOL. There is no new construction around here. My house is considered brand new as I don't have knob and tube.

Other people have A/C with no new panel just wondering if I can do it or not.

I am not putting in a new main panel. What is that $10,000 or more?

In that case I just won't put in A/C. I don't really need it as it does not get hot. Just would be nice to have it.

The question is really how is sub-panel's wired? Does it need to go through the breakers? Or does it go around the breakers?

I can take a picture if that would help.

 

[hallett21]

I didn’t realize electricity had evolved over the last 50 years. What are the new ones made out of?...since evidently copper bus bars in a steel enclosure are obsolete?

Not always copper a lot are aluminum.

50 years of metal expanding and contracting (bussbar and breaker connection)

Humidity causing corrosion on ground and neutral busses.

Busted or missing ground bonds

Most importantly the moment I touch it I own it. And when it finally blows it’ll be the “electrical contractor’s” fault.


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[hallett21]

Just to clarify I have a newer panel at least for this area. By that I mean it actually has breakers. LOL. There is no new construction around here. My house is considered brand new as I don't have knob and tube.

Other people have A/C with no new panel just wondering if I can do it or not.

I am not putting in a new main panel. What is that $10,000 or more?

In that case I just won't put in A/C. I don't really need it as it does not get hot. Just would be nice to have it.

The question is really how is sub-panel's wired? Does it need to go through the breakers? Or does it go around the breakers?

I can take a picture if that would help.

Even in Nor Cal I’d be shocked if you paid over 4k for a new panel upgrade.




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[DaveC]

Thank you very much. That answers my question.

I am not sure about the A/C size but it will be a forced air deal.

I don't have room for another 2 pole breaker as it is a full house in there already.

Also labor around here is costly. So the upgrade cost might be a bit more for me.

The other thing I worry about is the main service wire from the street might be too small to go 200 amp so we need new wire from the street.

What about deleting the dryer?

No solar. My electric bill is $75. Seriously.

thanks again!!

If your panel is the original from 67 it’s time to replace.

Air Conditioning will be 240v unless we are talking about a small mini split unit.

To add a subpanel you would install a 2 pole breaker with proper sized breaker for the load and main panel.

There are what are called tandem breakers that take one breaker position and split it into 2. If your panel is from 1967 please do not do this.

I would suggest adding a new 200amp 20/40 space main panel. This updates your gear and gives you more space for the future.

The problem with adding the sub panel is you will need to run wire from the main to the new sub location. This will probably entail damaging drywall/siding/stucco etc.

At the end of all that you still have an old panel running the house.

Cost wise without looking, in SoCal we would be between 3-3.5k for a 200amp main panel swap and 1.6-2k for a sub panel add. This would be a permitted done correctly kind of job. Not neighbor Hank Hill down the street and a six pack.

Post some pics of your current set up.

Edit: if you’re considering solar down the road then you will have to upgrade your main panel anyways.


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[DaveC]

I haven't got a quote yet. But I heard its a big job (expensive)

But we have no grounds either. Old house.

It might be a shit show.

Even in Nor Cal I’d be shocked if you paid over 4k for a new panel upgrade.




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[hallett21]

I haven't got a quote yet. But I heard its a big job (expensive)

But we have no grounds either. Old house.

It might be a shit show.

Post some photos for the hell of it.

Overhead feed to the house?


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[hallett21]

@highvoltagehands does PGE make the customer pay for overhead utility conductor upgrades?


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[DaveC]

We are underground. I will take a picture after lunch.

I can ask my neighbor about the connection to the street. I don't know who HUD works for because Sac might be different.

Post some photos for the hell of it.

Overhead feed to the house?


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Funny you mentioned corrosion on the ground. Well that happened on my rental house which is even older and a bigger shit show. We had to replace a few items when the voltage dropped. LOL It was PG&E's fault so they paid me after they fixed the corroded ground on their connection.

 

[DaveC]

The reason we don't have A/C is that it really only gets hot maybe 3-4 days a year where we would need it. So yesterday was one of those days. LOL

If I was in Socal or AZ we would be upgrading everything and adding solar. LOL

My parents added AC to their house but their's is much smaller house with maybe less circuits than mine. They are old and grumpy and home all day so it made sense for them.

 

[lbhsbz]

While I’m not sure of the legality of it, if you will not be overloading your “old” panel, and if it isn’t a zinsco POS...and you’re simply out of room...consider taking a couple circuits off of the main panel and running them off your new sub.

The main panel in my old house is a GE unit with 10 spots or so...this was added later, and the original Pushmatic panel became the sub panel for the house, then I added another sub for the garage, consolidating the 6 old circuits to the garage into one that fed the sub. The main has a main breaker, a breaker feeding the AC disconnect, a breaker feeding the house sub and a breaker feeding the garage sub with several spots left. Nothing is overloaded.

I do not hold a license in 3 states...I hold a thermal imaging camera and verified with with all kinds of shit running, nothing gets hot...which is the main objective.

 

[Deckin Around]

A 200amp residential panel swap in same location should be around $2500 all in by a licensed electrician. At least that's what I pay as a GC to my subs at least once a month and we are doing Tesla charger upgrades

 

[Mike Honcho]

Not sure as I skimmed most of this however based on the load draw that would determine what you can add. As for Electrical most is based off of amperage so your 100 amp panel may have an average draw not peak draw of X based on size of the home and options (appliances and items that use electricity). If a electrician came out and found that your amperage draw is low and you could add the additional a/c unit lets say it uses a peak start up power of 40 amps and then there are multiple options to get the power a sub-panel, half size breakers creating more panel space, or adding a single type enclosure to get the power from (small sub panel) sort to speak.

Your best approach is to have a licensed electrician come out and look at everything and then explain your options and costs. Before approving or signing any contracts please check the contract out at CSLB with their license number to verify there has not been any complaints or judgments and most importantly that they have an active license.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[DaveC]

Panel

I was too scared to open that bad boy up and show you whats inside. LOL

 

[DaveC]

This is kind of what I thought. "It depends."

We eliminated a bunch of electrical appliances that were originally installed that we no longer needed. My usual draw outside of the dryer is very low.(under 1000 watts) But the panel is still full. So I am not sure if I have room to add more circuits or not.

Our biggest draw is the 220 electrical dryer. If I recall that is like 4000 watts but I will go home and verify that. That with an A/C might be pushing it. I have to get someone in there to take a look.

The information in this thread has been helpful. Thanks everyone!!

Not sure as I skimmed most of this however based on the load draw that would determine what you can add. As for Electrical most is based off of amperage so your 100 amp panel may have an average draw not peak draw of X based on size of the home and options (appliances and items that use electricity). If a electrician came out and found that your amperage draw is low and you could add the additional a/c unit lets say it uses a peak start up power of 40 amps and then there are multiple options to get the power a sub-panel, half size breakers creating more panel space, or adding a single type enclosure to get the power from (small sub panel) sort to speak.

Your best approach is to have a licensed electrician come out and look at everything and then explain your options and costs. Before approving or signing any contracts please check the contract out at CSLB with their license number to verify there has not been any complaints or judgments and most importantly that they have an active license.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[DaveC]

If I could find someone to do it for anywhere near that amount I would be on it like white on rice. Even if we add a bit of a mark up to that price that is still in my wheel house. I don't mind paying a small business man for the effort.

As was mentioned earlier, the upgrade to 200 amp would give me the option to add solar if we wanted to go that route later. Might be worth the $$.

Thanks

A 200amp residential panel swap in same location should be around $2500 all in by a licensed electrician. At least that's what I pay as a GC to my subs at least once a month and we are doing Tesla charger upgrades

Funny part is we went to all the trouble of converting an old "electrical" house to low energy appliances/fixtures and gas appliances so we could reduce our overall electrical consumption. I would think it would be easy to add that consumption back. LOL

 

[NicPaus]

With all the Sparkys on here surprised none in your area. Job I am at now Hallet21 put the new 200amp main in.

 

[JDub24]

What really “shocks me” is that we have had this many posts and not one person has asked RD for his electricians phone number...

 

[hallett21]

With all the Sparkys on here surprised none in your area. Job I am at now Hallet21 put the new 200amp main in.

I feel like you may retire there lol


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[NicPaus]

I feel like you may retire there lol


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The windows the wife did not want inspector sent us back to plan check for more revisions. 50' of shear walls added with new plans. Tearing back out what we did to put them in now. At least were water proof finally rain coming. Hopefully no more changes.

 

[DaveC]

All the dudes I know work union for big companies and they have nothing but work going on with big jobs with all the building going on around here in major construction.

I am a small fry.

Ain't nobody got time for dat.

With all the Sparkys on here surprised none in your area. Job I am at now Hallet21 put the new 200amp main in.

 

[Mike Honcho]

This is kind of what I thought. "It depends."

We eliminated a bunch of electrical appliances that were originally installed that we no longer needed. My usual draw outside of the dryer is very low.(under 1000 watts) But the panel is still full. So I am not sure if I have room to add more circuits or not.

Our biggest draw is the 220 electrical dryer. If I recall that is like 4000 watts but I will go home and verify that. That with an A/C might be pushing it. I have to get someone in there to take a look.

The information in this thread has been helpful. Thanks everyone!!

Hopefully this will make sense to you you have half or double breakers already in most spots so if you use double breakers in spots 9/10 this would free up 3/4 spots for a new breaker for the ac unit but this is all bearing that the panel draw is below the main with the new circuit. Usually 80% of main. There is another variable which is what type of ac unit you install a package unit the type usually on the roof will take 240 v but a split would take 120/240 for the condensing unit outside it would be 240 v but again the amperage is the variable the FAU inside on a split system use 120 v.
Another thought is most a/c company’s can come give u a bid and check the power as well to make sure it’s sufficient. Where are you located again?

 

[Mike Honcho]

Crap just saw your in nor cal can’t help I’m so cal usually quotes are free also if your gonna go with ac check this site and see if you can supply equip for the install it’s usually cheaper I used it for my home and installed it my self. Upgraded the old unit I had.
Acwholesalers.com

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Hopefully this will make sense to you you have half or double breakers already in most spots so if you use double breakers in spots 9/10 this would free up 3/4 spots for a new breaker for the ac unit but this is all bearing that the panel draw is below the main with the new circuit. Usually 80% of main. There is another variable which is what type of ac unit you install a package unit the type usually on the roof will take 240 v but a split would take 120/240 for the condensing unit outside it would be 240 v but again the amperage is the variable the FAU inside on a split system use 120 v.
Another thought is most a/c company’s can come give u a bid and check the power as well to make sure it’s sufficient. Where are you located again?

I don't think those are the double breakers for that panel. I had a panel like that in my old house (well still mine, it still hasn't sold yet). It was a sub-panel in the garage and had that doubled up style breaker but the actual toggles were half that size and doubled up on the breakers

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[KingofBeers]

Where in norcal are you

 

[DirtyWhiteDog]

Some good advice as always here. But the first thing you need is an electrical load calculation to see what is used vs what you have supplied. I would highly recommend a panel upgrade to 200amp just for the benefit of having a viable ground.

 

[Havasu blue label]

What area are you in

 

[badluck]

If u have an electric dryer or range you could free up 1 of those 220 circuits for the condenser. What’s the sq’ of the house? 3 ton is usually 30amp and 5 ton is usually 50 amp.

 

[badluck]

Looks like he is in foster city. Most of those homes have split systems. Package units are only used in small commercial buildings around here.

 

[badluck]

Just saw your dryer post. Lose the dryer. That’s all you need. If I can’t help you I have several contacts who can, for ac and electrical.

 

[Classic Daycruiser]

I didn’t realize electricity had evolved over the last 50 years. What are the new ones made out of?...since evidently copper bus bars in a steel enclosure are obsolete?

The UL codes might not have existed prior to 1970's?

 

[Joe mama]

What’s the sq’ on the house? Dont see many large 240v loads besides dryer. Dryer and a/c would be your largest loads. That’s not a bad panel....

 

[DaveC]

Thanks guys

In Foster City. (NorCal)

My forced air heater is AC ready. So just need the condenser outside which will be ground level.

Good news is everything can run through crawl space underneath. Easy

We removed a 220 electrical oven already which was breaker 3&4. We put a single 110 circuit in its place for lights and plugs.

I don’t know if those are doubles or not. How does one tell? Open the cover? Under the cover is scary

Spot 1&2 are for the 220 dryer. Mislabeled

House is 2300 sq ft two story with forced air.

Only big load is the dryer and maybe dishwasher. Gas range and energy efficient appliances and lights. Not much else going on.

 

[highvoltagehands]

@highvoltagehands does PGE make the customer pay for overhead utility conductor upgrades?


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Yes. If an existing residential customer Wants to replace a OH or UG fed service panel with a new larger panel requiring service conductor replacement they will be charged $1k min depending on size and length of the run.
I imagine PG&E also charges a minimal fee just to disconnect & reconnect existing service for a panel replacement too.

 

[Yellowboat]

Your in the north bay right? I know a great sparky out of riovista. He might be willing to come take a look.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Thanks guys

In Foster City. (NorCal)

My forced air heater is AC ready. So just need the condenser outside which will be ground level.

Good news is everything can run through crawl space underneath. Easy

We removed a 220 electrical oven already which was breaker 3&4. We put a single 110 circuit in its place for lights and plugs.

I don’t know if those are doubles or not. How does one tell? Open the cover? Under the cover is scary [emoji14]

Spot 1&2 are for the 220 dryer. Mislabeled

House is 2300 sq ft two story with forced air.

Only big load is the dryer and maybe dishwasher. Gas range and energy efficient appliances and lights. Not much else going on.

That big of a house should likely get a 5 ton condenser and a single system without zoning is gonna be challenging to keep comfortable. I would be a little Leary about putting a 5 ton on a 100 amp service

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