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Replacing Pool Water

Halvecto

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Curious what you all think. My pool is not responding to cleaning and chemicals this year. Doesn't help that the giant Eucalyptus tree and others nearby are dropping like crazy this year along with the heat over the last few weeks. Some algae and general cloudiness persists within a day or so of cleaning.

Been told it may be time to drain and start with fresh water. While empty doing a thorough cleaning and power wash. What is the normal frequency for doing this process? We've been in the house for 8 years and haven't done it.
 

CobraDave

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I think you would have to post up the chemical readings to get an idea of what the water is doing. At 8 years new water is a plus but not a necessity I think. How is the water not responding to chemicals?


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stephenkatsea

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Many here know than I do about this. In LHC we drain & fill every 2 years. 8 years seems really excessive. But LHC water has extreme amt of minerals.
 

Take The Long Way Home

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I did mine last year for the same problems you are having, I found out it had not been replaced by the previous owner (10 years). Per my pool guy he said to replaced the water every 5 to 6 years.
 

Spudsbud

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Id look to adjusting chems 1st. You change out water $$$ and get same results......
 

4Waters

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Put phosphate remover in it let the pump run for at least 24hrs then vacuum the pool, the bottom will be covered with the phosphates, then clean your filter.
 
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HOOTER SLED-

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In the same boat.....heard 5 years is roughly a good time to do it. Take a sample to your local pool supply store.....they'll tell you how the Phosphates are and if it's time. Last time I refilled it was way better.
 

Halvecto

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Thanks all. Will work on it this week. Getting a water reading is first.

Put some chlorine in last night, looks better this morning, but will test water tonight.

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parker112

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Does anyone know of a company that delivery water to fill pools? I do not want to wait for 3 day to fill my pool. In the riverside area.
 

Mandelon

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Roz taught me that new water needs the addition of chlorine conditioner...
 

Halvecto

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Did a water test..... Ph is low. Alkalinity and chlorine good. Hardness is high, but our water in this area is commonly hard with some iron.

Will work on getting Ph up and see if that helps.

Plan is still to drain and refill in September.
 

Bigbore500r

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Did a water test..... Ph is low. Alkalinity and chlorine good. Hardness is high, but our water in this area is commonly hard with some iron.

Will work on getting Ph up and see if that helps.

Plan is still to drain and refill in September.
What is your Cyanuric acid (CYA) level? Have you been using floater tablets for 8 years? If so you may find your CYA is over 120ppm, which basically locks the water up and chlorine has little effect at that point.
 

Halvecto

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What is your Cyanuric acid (CYA) level? Have you been using floater tablets for 8 years? If so you may find your CYA is over 120ppm, which basically locks the water up and chlorine has little effect at that point.

Don't know. Would have to take a sample to pool store to get that?
 

Melloyellovector

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There lots of answers and most can be tested for a solution to your problems.

Take a water sample to a real pool store ( not Leslie’s ) and have them check everything.
Conditioner levels, hardness, phosphates, alkalinity, ph etc....

Many Pool guys just don’t know how to fix or Home owners don’t want to pay for the fix. So they dump and start fresh. Depends on what city and local water costs. Some times water may be less then the chems and time to make it right again.

So there can be many solutions, non of which can be found by not knowing every detail you currently have going on. Start with a store, and get report. Likely the report will tell you what’s needed and what to do.
 

Halvecto

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There lots of answers and most can be tested for a solution to your problems.

Take a water sample to a real pool store ( not Leslie’s ) and have them check everything.
Conditioner levels, hardness, phosphates, alkalinity, ph etc....

Many Pool guys just don’t know how to fix or Home owners don’t want to pay for the fix. So they dump and start fresh. Depends on what city and local water costs. Some times water may be less then the chems and time to make it right again.

So there can be many solutions, non of which can be found by not knowing every detail you currently have going on. Start with a store, and get report. Likely the report will tell you what’s needed and what to do.
That's the plan. How much of a sample do they need?
 

rivermobster

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Curious what you all think. My pool is not responding to cleaning and chemicals this year. Doesn't help that the giant Eucalyptus tree and others nearby are dropping like crazy this year along with the heat over the last few weeks. Some algae and general cloudiness persists within a day or so of cleaning.

Been told it may be time to drain and start with fresh water. While empty doing a thorough cleaning and power wash. What is the normal frequency for doing this process? We've been in the house for 8 years and haven't done it.
A water change, or partial refill schedule totally depends on the water YOU have. You have to check YOUR pool and tap water to know exactly where you stand. BigBore nailed it too. If you are over conditioned, your chlorine wont work at all.

Pool stores and pool guys exist to make money on you. They are not there to serve your best interest!

If you really want to get YOUR pool dialed in, you need a quality test kit. Taylor industries makes the best one. This is the one that I use...

https://taylortechnologies.com/en/product/test-kits/2000-complete-alkalinitychlorine-hi-range-fas-dpdcyahardnessph--K-2006

I can guarantee you, no matter where you live, 8 years is WAY too long! Do a complete drain and refill, and use that kit (and most importantly, the instructions that come with it), and you'll absolutely notice the difference.

Oh and...

Taylor also makes an app for your phone that is easy and handy to use. :)
 

Melloyellovector

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That's the plan. How much of a sample do they need?
Pint size bottle, most stores will give you a sample water bottle

Easiest thing is empty a water bottle, and fill it up with Pool water.

I’m a Pool builder but have been involved in every aspect of the Pool industry. And can say with out question water does not HAVE to be replaced every X amount of years. Water for the most part in any shape can be brought back to manageable range. Again it really depends on water costs in area. Many areas it’s just easier and costs less. Getting a Taylor test kit can absolutely help if you want to learn to do yourself. You can also go buy a hammer and a square and start framing homes, a tool box and tools and some books and start working on cars. Or like anything you can let the professionals handle what they do best, and you go earn money in what you do best. Now if your income doesn’t exceed maint. costs then by all means buy a test kit and start learning. Lol
 

CobraDave

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I bet cya is through the roof. You need a better test kit. One that you can get actual numbers and one that can test cya.


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was thatguy

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Pint size bottle, most stores will give you a sample water bottle

Easiest thing is empty a water bottle, and fill it up with Pool water.

I’m a Pool builder but have been involved in every aspect of the Pool industry. And can say with out question water does not HAVE to be replaced every X amount of years. Water for the most part in any shape can be brought back to manageable range. Again it really depends on water costs in area. Many areas it’s just easier and costs less. Getting a Taylor test kit can absolutely help if you want to learn to do yourself. You can also go buy a hammer and a square and start framing homes, a tool box and tools and some books and start working on cars. Or like anything you can let the professionals handle what they do best, and you go earn money in what you do best. Now if your income doesn’t exceed maint. costs then by all means buy a test kit and start learning. Lol
This. ^^^^

From just reading your posts I can see several things wrong in your process.
You need a comprehensive test kit, and need to read and understand how to use it and what each test means.
You can’t just randomly add chemicals to do this or that. They react to and with each other, and certain steps need to be done in a certain order.
For instance you said you added chlorine, but then later tested the PH.
The PH needs corrected first for other chemicals including chlorine to work correctly. That’s a basic. Free chlorine, total chlorine, how clarifiers work, shock, etc all need done correctly and in the right order.

Our old pool was 40,000 gallons. I did not swap water 100% in 14 years.
I did do partial swaps along the way, maybe 10,000 gallons or about 1/4 of volume. That was due to draining it some to buff and repair upper decorative tile and steps.

It took me about 2 summers to start to understand what I was doing!
But I enjoyed learning it, and refused to hire a pool service...although I did get a lot of advice from the local Guitons pool store. I kept the pool water christal clear once I learned (sort of) what the hell I was doing.
 

CoolCruzin

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My Nieghbor drained his pool couple years back . The time it took to drain and fill , drying out the plaster . The old plaster popped in a few areas . 2-3 feet size . Looked like hell and all he wanted was new water.
He replastered months later.
So old my not be a bad thing .
Good side his pool looks great now with new plaster
 

1cole280S

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Just went through this last year!!! changed the water after 12 years now the water is crystal clear all the time.
 

t&y

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I generally drain and replace about every 6 to 7 years. The phosphate stuff I put in with a "decent" cholorine seems to manage the water pretty good now as long as I do a back flush every other month. Living in cow country makes keeping the pool clean a bit of a task.

On another note, if you are going to drain, you might want to look into replacing your bottom drain cover and the light if needed. YES you can do that with water in there, but it is a whole lot easier if you don't have to do it all under water:D
 

mesquito_creek

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Does anyone know of a company that delivery water to fill pools? I do not want to wait for 3 day to fill my pool. In the riverside area.
No... But where I live you can go to the city and get a fire hydrant meter and use that to fill your pool in a couple hours instead of your hose. They read the meter and charge you your regular residential rate.
 

mesquito_creek

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its cost me about 70 bucks to fill my 15K gallon pool. I drain and fill about every 3 years... Its simple for me, pool store and pool professionals are in the business of selling pool chemicals. If it cost more that 70 bucks in chemicals to "fix" whatever they are selling me, I just drain and fill instead. Great clean low tds water right out of the tap beats snake oil every time...
 

2Driver

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What is your Cyanuric acid (CYA) level? Have you been using floater tablets for 8 years? If so you may find your CYA is over 120ppm, which basically locks the water up and chlorine has little effect at that point.
^ THIS. Cyanuric acid is the stabilizer in the tabs and a lot in shock. It builds up over time making the Clorine less and less effective. Essentially you have to significantly increase your clorine level to get the same sanitizing effect if you CYA is high.

The pool store will never tell you this because they want to sell you expensive phosphate bullshit and algacide vs cheap liquid clorine.

Find your CYA level and use the chart on this website to figure out what chorine level you really need. While the store may be telling you 4 free clorine is normal if your cya is high you may need a 7-8 FC to be the equivalent of A low cya pool.

Until you drian and refill, use some tabs and just buy liquid clorine it has no CYA. It bet you need 5-6+ gallons of liquid chlorine to fix your pool. Then keep it at the higher clorine ratio based on the below.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock
 
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rivermobster

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Here is the simple explanation...

When you wash your car, do you let the car air dry? Of course not, it would be covered in water spots. Those spots are not from the water though, they are from the "stuff" that is IN the water.

So even not using your pool for anything else just to look at, the water is constantly evaporating. So you add more water to fill it back up, and you're adding more "stuff" to your pool.

What you are doing is increasing the hardness.

The only way to reduce the "stuff" (hardness) in your pool, is to do a partial or full water change. A good test kit will tell you when this needs to be done.

Pretty simple. Mine needs to be done right now, I'll do it at the end of this summer.

Too much hardness, and your chloriene and acid wont work.

Too much PH, and your chlorine wont work.

Too much conditioner, and your chlorien wont work.

So yeah, the water does need to be changed. If you wanna get all technical and shit, look here: https://taylortechnologies.com/en/page/169/understanding-calcium-hardness
 

28Eliminator

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^ THIS. Cyanuric acid is the stabilizer in the tabs and a lot in shock. It builds up over time making the Clorine less and less effective. Essentially you have to significantly increase your clorine level to get the same sanitizing effect if you CYA is high.

The pool store will never tell you this because they want to sell you expensive phosphate bullshit and algacide vs cheap liquid clorine.

Find your CYA level and use the chart on this website to figure out what chorine level you really need. While the store may be telling you 4 free clorine is normal if your cya is high you may need a 7-8 FC to be the equivalent of A low cya pool.

Until you drian and refill, use some tabs and just buy liquid clorine it has no CYA. It bet you need 5-6+ gallons of liquid chlorine to fix your pool. Then keep it at the higher clorine ratio based on the below.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock
This ^^^ exactly. High CYNA is the devil, and unavoidable if you use tabs. I end up having to drain mine about every 3 years because it gets to the point of Chlorine Lock largely due to the high CYNA. I use mostly liquid chlorine, and supplement it with tabs when it gets hot, or i'm gonna be gone for a while.

Old pool guru told me "every chemical you put in your pool water has a residual that stays there FOREVER". he said change it every few years, and you'll be a much happier pool owner. He was right!
 

530RL

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Although I take care of my pool myself, I pay a guy to come by once a month and do chemistry as that stuff is science above my pay grade. He has a fancy plug in the wall spectrophotometer which measures all those fancy words more accurately and he then sells me chemicals I can not find online or in pool or HD type stores. If I follow his advice to the ounce, and then simply keep the PH and free Chlorine at correct levels, I have no problems what so ever.

Before that it was all guessing.

I drain half the pool every winter when water is cheap.
 

28Eliminator

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I used his services a month ago. My problems were the hard water and sky high CYA (270). He parked his trailer in my driveway and came back 24hrs later to pick everything up. around $650 to filter a 25k gallon pool.
Holy crap!! It only cost about $80 to fill my 14,000 gal pool with new water!


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rivermobster

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I used his services a month ago. My problems were the hard water and sky high CYA (270). He parked his trailer in my driveway and came back 24hrs later to pick everything up. around $650 to filter a 25k gallon pool.
That is insane...

And this kids is why you buy a 70 dollar test kit and do everything yourself! :eek:
 

rivermobster

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This ^^^ exactly. High CYNA is the devil, and unavoidable if you use tabs. I end up having to drain mine about every 3 years because it gets to the point of Chlorine Lock largely due to the high CYNA. I use mostly liquid chlorine, and supplement it with tabs when it gets hot, or i'm gonna be gone for a while.

Old pool guru told me "every chemical you put in your pool water has a residual that stays there FOREVER". he said change it every few years, and you'll be a much happier pool owner. He was right!
http://www.hthpools.com/pool/pool-products/sanitize#IR6OY0pHM0JXafmD.97

I don't use tabs anymore, but IF i did, I would use something like these. :)
 

Halvecto

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Great info and insights. Thanks a bunch. Didn't realize I'd get a small seminar on pool maintenance. I have a pool guy, but like my yard, boats, cars, etc. I think it is good stewardship to know enough to make intelligent decisions and do things myself if it is reasonable.

I agree with @Melloyellovector it's wise to use professionals for most things of value. I also believe educating clients builds their confidence in paying me. Informed people are the most trusting clients. Somewhat counter-intuitive in this Google Degree world, but it's true.
 

Uncle Dave

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I pay a Ro truck guy a couple hundred bones plus miles to do it every 4-6 years.

Takes about 6 -7 hours and pulls my TDS way down.



UD
 

rivermobster

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Those look like the way to go. It’s the stabilizer in the tabs that pushes mine over the edge.

Thanks for the link


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You're welcome. They make non stabilized shock too. This year, I have been using it religiously. With my chlorine dispenser, I don't have a need for tabs anymore!
 

checkrd past

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Here is the simple explanation...

When you wash your car, do you let the car air dry? Of course not, it would be covered in water spots. Those spots are not from the water though, they are from the "stuff" that is IN the water.

So even not using your pool for anything else just to look at, the water is constantly evaporating. So you add more water to fill it back up, and you're adding more "stuff" to your pool.

What you are doing is increasing the hardness.

The only way to reduce the "stuff" (hardness) in your pool, is to do a partial or full water change. A good test kit will tell you when this needs to be done.

Pretty simple. Mine needs to be done right now, I'll do it at the end of this summer.

Too much hardness, and your chloriene and acid wont work.

Too much PH, and your chlorine wont work.

Too much conditioner, and your chlorien wont work.

So yeah, the water does need to be changed. If you wanna get all technical and shit, look here: https://taylortechnologies.com/en/page/169/understanding-calcium-hardness

Thanks for the simple explanation
 

Melloyellovector

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Here is the simple explanation...

When you wash your car, do you let the car air dry? Of course not, it would be covered in water spots. Those spots are not from the water though, they are from the "stuff" that is IN the water.

So even not using your pool for anything else just to look at, the water is constantly evaporating. So you add more water to fill it back up, and you're adding more "stuff" to your pool.

What you are doing is increasing the hardness.

The only way to reduce the "stuff" (hardness) in your pool, is to do a partial or full water change. A good test kit will tell you when this needs to be done.

Pretty simple. Mine needs to be done right now, I'll do it at the end of this summer.

Too much hardness, and your chloriene and acid wont work.

Too much PH, and your chlorine wont work.

Too much conditioner, and your chlorien wont work.

So yeah, the water does need to be changed. If you wanna get all technical and shit, look here: https://taylortechnologies.com/en/page/169/understanding-calcium-hardness
Well if you want to get all technical and shit.

Taylor is also a Pool manufacture that benefits from selling you shit, just sayin

There are products you can add to water to reduce and remove calcium hardness from the water. It can be turned into a larger solid that a filter can catch, or it can be reduced to another form at a molecular level where it can be made beneficial to mainting ph in Pools
One could also install an mpluse unit. That zaps calcium and changes it’s make up. Yes they work. Similar units are used in water sanitation for drinking
Again, it’s all relative to what local water costs are. I’m not here to sell anyone Shit. So it makes zero difference to me if you want to fix or replace water.

Phosphates are a different animal then water hardness. They are found in lawn and garden fertilizers, decaying vegetation, water, cosmetics on bathers, and some Pool chemicals.
Phosphates are the primary food source for all water plants including all Pool algae
High fire areas that use phoscheck for fire retardent create nightmares for Pools, fountains, ponds, lakes etc..
Phosfree and other similar chems basically bind the phosphate and make it a larger partical that filters can catch. The negative is if never used before you will be cleaning the filter multiple times before you can get to a maintanence level with the product. But the pool water will sparkle usually like never before for many

Now as far as HTH tabs, that is pretty much maintaining your pool with shock. Calcium hypochlorite
Also a large percentage of the tablet is made up of inert ingredients, those ingredients are increasing your hardness also, it’s not magic dust. Lol
It is a highly dangerous chemical. If used or mixed with wrong products can be flammable and even highly explosive.
My suggestion, be very very careful with using these. I would suggest it would be safer to dump Pool then handling them for an average home owner. I have seen video of cal hypo plant leveling blocks of a city. On a personal level I have seen bombs made with it and it’s some serious shit. Just sayin

Joe your Pool looks great for what it’s worth. :D
Edit: don’t touch cal hypo in any form with brake fluid on your hands it burns at 600 plus degrees, bye bye fingers
 
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rivermobster

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Well if you want to get all technical and shit.

Taylor is also a Pool manufacture that benefits from selling you shit, just sayin

There are products you can add to water to reduce and remove calcium hardness from the water. It can be turned into a larger solid that a filter can catch, or it can be reduced to another form at a molecular level where it can be made beneficial to mainting ph in Pools
One could also install an mpluse unit. That zaps calcium and changes it’s make up. Yes they work. Similar units are used in water sanitation for drinking
Again, it’s all relative to what local water costs are. I’m not here to sell anyone Shit. So it makes zero difference to me if you want to fix or replace water.

Phosphates are a different animal then water hardness. They are found in lawn and garden fertilizers, decaying vegetation, water, cosmetics on bathers, and some Pool chemicals.
Phosphates are the primary food source for all water plants including all Pool algae
High fire areas that use phoscheck for fire retardent create nightmares for Pools, fountains, ponds, lakes etc..
Phosfree and other similar chems basically bind the phosphate and make it a larger partical that filters can catch. The negative is if never used before you will be cleaning the filter multiple times before you can get to a maintanence level with the product. But the pool water will sparkle usually like never before for many

Now as far as HTH tabs, that is pretty much maintaining your pool with shock. Calcium hypochlorite
Also a large percentage of the tablet is made up of inert ingredients, those ingredients are increasing your hardness also, it’s not magic dust. Lol
It is a highly dangerous chemical. If used or mixed with wrong products can be flammable and even highly explosive.
My suggestion, be very very careful with using these. I would suggest it would be safer to dump Pool then handling them for an average home owner. I have seen video of cal hypo plant leveling blocks of a city. On a personal level I have seen bombs made with it and it’s some serious shit. Just sayin

Joe your Pool looks great for what it’s worth. :D
Edit: don’t touch cal hypo in any form with brake fluid on your hands it burns at 600 plus degrees, bye bye fingers
Wow. Thanks for writing all that!

I'm glad I don't use tabs anymore! LoL

What are these chemicals you speak of? Are the cheaper than doing a water change? Will they suck out the stabilizer too?

Inquiring minds wanna know!
 

Melloyellovector

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Wow. Thanks for writing all that!

I'm glad I don't use tabs anymore! LoL

What are these chemicals you speak of? Are the cheaper than doing a water change? Will they suck out the stabilizer too?

Inquiring minds wanna know!
Electronic sources that I’m aware of are mpulse3000 real unit, scale master is a cheapy unit
Chemicals, scaletec, scalefree, mineral out, are a few for reducing calcium levels and more. Ask a Pool store or similar for calcium decreaser
Phosfree and extreme to remove phosphates
Bio-active makes a product to lower cyanauric acid levels
Many floculants under many names to help remove metals etc
Salt is the only one I’m not aware of any product for levels to high
All to be found in Pool stores. Not Home Depot, or Leslie’s. Even if they carried they wouldn’t know what the hell it was or how it works.

Again it’s all relative to what local water costs are, also some peoples minds about helping California’s water versus just dumping it.
For me and you it may cost 70-100 to dump and replace.
Some cities you can not just dump water, it has to be treated or dumped in water trucks
Santa Clarita for instance if you have a salt water pool. It has to be dumped and contained with in your yard or pumped into trucks to be treated else where. Costing thousands
Most cities you HAVE to dump to sewer on houseafter it’s been neutralized, now what if it’s an older home that can’t handle the volume of water pumping down drains. What if an inexperienced homeowner didn’t know any better and dumped in sewer and backed up 40k gallons of water into their home while they left and went shopping. And insurance says screw you for your dumb ass mistake. It can and does happen
How bout in carmel valley water costs are in the thousands. And if you fill a pool with city water you get major league fines. You have to bring in water trucks for filling pools.

Again my point is it’s all in relation to water costs etc. do what’s best for your area and Home.
 

TCHB

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Note my pool is about 12,000 gallons and it cost me $30 water charge. Contact the water department here in Havasu and they will explain the process.
 
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