School me on solar

[Ace in the Hole]

Why can't I change something I own? I am tried of someone else telling me what is allowed.

If you are tied into the grid, an agreement was made with the utility for the system. You cannot increase size, nor add anything such as batteries without notifying them and it being approved. In a lot of cases the NEM agreements have changed since the original was done and you will likely lose something changing the system. This isn't true in every case but is in many..especially if you change system capacities. There are a plethora of reasons for this.

 

[monkeyswrench]

If you are tied into the grid, an agreement was made with the utility for the system. You cannot increase size, nor add anything such as batteries without notifying them and it being approved. In a lot of cases the NEM agreements have changed since the original was done and you will likely lose something changing the system. This isn't true in every case but is in many..especially if you change system capacities. There are a plethora of reasons for this.

I hadn't thought of the amount headed upstream on grid injection changing. Really, you can't change the numbers without them "seeing" it.

 

[MPHSystems]

I've been thinking about doing solar on my house lately. Not a big house, 1800sqft, All of the appliances are newer and we have a newer AC unit as well. We definitely like to keep our house cold in the summer and the wife likes to run the heater in the winter. Our Electric bill just keeps going up so I figured I would ask here if solar is worth it. We live in OC. Any members have a company that does it? Whats the cost of it? Are the telsa (or any brand) Battery walls worth it? Any advice is appreciated!

I do PV. Not a lot of it but I do very good work and I am not competitive price wise with the roof monkey pannle slammer companies. I buy materials very competitively but I refuse to do hack work and most PV installs I’ve seen are hack work. Roof leaks are handled by a team of roof leak repair guys, the system installers are just ther to get as many pannles installed as fast as possible. Pipework is usually to code but almost never pretty.


Batteries, for a power wall side battery, expect to add $15K to the price of your instal. realize, the big successful companies make a significant portion of their profit on the various financing scheme. You may see a lower number on your estimate/bill but to add a 13Kwh battery, materials cost is over $10K. And the battery should be replaced every 10 years. They aere super cool but ask yourself if you really need it.

 

[MPHSystems]

During the winter its anywhere from 175-250, during the summer I'm starting to get up into the 300-400 range. I know its nothing crazy expensive but if solar is cheaper i guess why not lol

No pool but may be putting in a spa soon. gas stove. electric oven i think. electric heater i think

It would be worth it for you. If you spend $25K and get your bill to under $100, with opportunity costs on the money, your ROI would be under 8 years off the top of my head.

With energy costs going up, it could be closer to 5-6 years.

 

[MPHSystems]

Once again... The OP can't really figure out his ROI on others example as the odds of him getting his system before Net Metering 3.0 come out is slim.

"Assuming the CPUC moves forward with the utility company’s recommendations, your grid benefits charge will be a monthly fee based on the size of your installed system, ranging anywhere from $7 to $11 per kW per month depending on your utility company. To put that into perspective, the average quoted system size in California on the EnergySage Marketplace is about 8.2 kW – for a system this large, you would need to pay an extra $57 to $90 on your utility bill each month, or $700 to $1000 per year (!!) for the right to have solar."

This will kill solar in California. Hopefully this doesn't happen and the pressure to go green in this state will stop it. Not to mention that they also want to change giving you retail credit for the kWh you push back during the month to wholesale.

These two posts lead into each other

It doesn’t work very well at night.

It’s doesn’t just not work good at night, it doesn’t work good outside the hours of 10:00-4:00 and there is a glut of power from 10:00-4:00

we are at the point where additional consumer PV doesn’t help the POCO’s any more. They have more power than they can sell from 10-4

They also don’t work well in winter. If you ever get a chance, connect a VOM and am amp meter. To a PV module. Point it perpendicular to the sun, then move the module around and look at your amps and volts, you don’t have to be all that far off perpendicular for those values to fall off dramatically.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

the big successful companies make a significant portion of their profit on the various financing scheme.

The big companies pay dealer fees just like the little ones, though the percentages vary. Access to that financing doesn't happen overnight, and is often the difference between a successful company and an unsuccessful company. It's a barrier to entry so to speak. The install companies (with a few exceptions like PPA/Lease companies that have their own crews), pay out for financing..they aren't making a profit on that part of the deal I assure you. I deal with this side of the industry every day.

Out of curiosity who are you buying your materials from?

 

[MPHSystems]

The big companies pay dealer fees just like the little ones, though the percentages vary. Access to that financing doesn't happen overnight, and is often the difference between a successful company and an unsuccessful company. It's a barrier to entry so to speak. The install companies (with a few exceptions like PPA/Lease companies that have their own crews), pay out for financing..they aren't making a profit on that part of the deal I assure you. I deal with this side of the industry every day.

Out of curiosity who are you buying your materials from?

CED/green tech.

My first foyer in PV was through a finance company, their only goal was to sell loans, leases actually. PV was just a means to that end. Their plan was to have college kids do the implementation cheep but it turns out college kids can’t tell their asses from a hole in the ground so they started recruiting C10’s This was 15 years ago.


I can do financing through CED but I tell my customers to get their own money. It’s cheeper that way and you are less likely to spend more than you should with the seemingly cheep money.

I keep my customers for decades, most of them hate what I have to say but years later my recommendations almost invariably pan out to be advantageous to them.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

CED

Going to shoot you a PM we should chat.

 

[Angler]

If you looking to get a solar system, hurry!!

This proposal is from all electricity providers in Ca.

https://news.energysage.com/net-metering-3-0/

 

[Christopher Lucero]

So, the whole battery backup thing is a topic in itself.
First, no utility will allow you to sell them excess stored energy. Only generation is allowed under Calif NEM, so windy nights benefit the windmill crowd.
Second, many municipalities require specific permittage that is different for battery backup systems as compared to grid tie only, so there is extra cost and permittage problems with backup.
Sizing the battery system is a bit of an art, but the mitigation of sizing is more on the side relative to consumption...that is, replacing incandescents with LEDs wherever possible is a more direct route to reducing consumption in an outage duration calculation.
Lastly, batteries are for backup when utility power fails. Energy regulatory rules set up disallow selling power from stored energy in batteries, fuel cells, rotational/gravitational energy devices, etc. That means that the only way you use the power from batteries is to go out and switch off mains to disconnect from utility power. It is not exactly illegal, but it is also a technical violation of NEM rules. I do not know the penalties in case you get caught.
Letting a contractor do their best work is for some, but going in aware and armed with knowledge is the best defense against paying for stuff you don't need, or above reasonable price for what you do want or need.
Good luck.

 

[Done-it-again]

If you are tied into the grid, an agreement was made with the utility for the system. You cannot increase size, nor add anything such as batteries without notifying them and it being approved. In a lot of cases the NEM agreements have changed since the original was done and you will likely lose something changing the system. This isn't true in every case but is in many..especially if you change system capacities. There are a plethora of reasons for this.

I hadn't thought of the amount headed upstream on grid injection changing. Really, you can't change the numbers without them "seeing" it.

My father added 15 panels to his system of 32 4 yrs ago. Maybe it was a fluke but no issues. He doesn’t feed much back and uses a lot of power. Perhaps that ‘s the reason. He still has about a $1,000 bill at the end.

 

[MPHSystems]

My father added 15 panels to his system of 32 4 yrs ago. Maybe it was a fluke but no issues. He doesn’t feed much back and uses a lot of power. Perhaps that ‘s the reason. He still has about a $1,000 bill at the end.

The expanssion complexity depends on if you have micro inverters, optimizer or a string system. In any event, you need to have new drawings approved by plan check, new phenolic placards, new NEM agreement and new inspection.


Installation wise, the are very scalable (assuming your inverter can handle the additional power) but the approval process is like starting a whole new system.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

The expanssion complexity depends on if you have micro inverters, optimizer or a string system. In any event, you need to have new drawings approved by plan check, new phenolic placards, new NEM agreement and new inspection.


Installation wise, the are very scalable (assuming your inverter can handle the additional power) but the approval process is like starting a whole new system.

adding panels...
you would also need to be careful about your THHN/THWN wire gage capacity. conduction amperage and maximum temperature derating need consideration. otherwise...

 

[Done-it-again]

The expanssion complexity depends on if you have micro inverters, optimizer or a string system. In any event, you need to have new drawings approved by plan check, new phenolic placards, new NEM agreement and new inspection.


Installation wise, the are very scalable (assuming your inverter can handle the additional power) but the approval process is like starting a whole new system.

The existing and additional are all micro converters. No new drawings and sce was not involved. He’s still working off the original NEM agreement he had when the original system was installed 8-10 yrs ago.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

for the super nerdy here, this website will tell you the daily/hourly solar declination based upon your surface coordinates.
solar efficiency is roughly cosine rule...1 at 0 degrees, and declining to zero as the insolation angle decreases (90 degrees).

 

[TPC]

The new Ford F-150 Lightning comes with the wall charger.
It’s capable of charging up to a colossal 90 AMPs.

I suspect all the new E trucks will be capable of that.
That’s brutal.

The whole neighborhood will go dim when you plug it in.
Nahh not really.

Hold that thought when choosing a system.

Some were scratching their heads asking why I increased our home elect service to 200 AMPS - and they still don’t get it.

Teslas electricians said smart move.
They see the future. They install it everyday.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

The whole neighborhood will go dim when you plug it in

LOL. no
thanks for the hyperbole, though.

 

[Angler]

The new Ford F-150 Lightning comes with the wall charger.
It’s capable of charging up to a colossal 90 AMPs.

I suspect all the new E trucks will be capable of that.
That’s brutal.

The whole neighborhood will go dim when you plug it in.
Hold that thought when choosing a system.

Some were scratching their heads asking why I increased our home elect service to 200 AMPS - and they still don’t get it.

Teslas electricians said smart move.
They see the future.

Needed to upgrade to 200 amp panel for the pool.

 

[BasilHayden]

I have micro inverters and already built my whole system myself. Will probably need a bigger input breaker is all.

Batteries dont change your breaker size at all. Please dont try to do the batteries on your own, its completely different and much more complicated to do right.

Batteries arent used to send power to the grid, they are used to avoid pulling power from the grid when the rates are higher and the sun isnt providing your power. TOU costs you the most from 4-9pm. Just as your solar system is shutting down. But if you have a properly sized battery you should have plenty of power to make it through that period and then have power on reserve just in case the grid shuts down. Most battery systems are nowhere near large enough to run the entire house for any extended period of time, but they can keep your essential loads up and running while waiting for the utilities to give you back the grid.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Batteries dont change your breaker size at all. Please dont try to do the batteries on your own, its completely different and much more complicated to do right.

Batteries arent used to send power to the grid, they are used to avoid pulling power from the grid when the rates are higher and the sun isnt providing your power. TOU costs you the most from 4-9pm. Just as your solar system is shutting down. But if you have a properly sized battery you should have plenty of power to make it through that period and then have power on reserve just in case the grid shuts down. Most battery systems are nowhere near large enough to run the entire house for any extended period of time, but they can keep your essential loads up and running while waiting for the utilities to give you back the grid.

mine will run the house for >3days in winter.
unlimited in spring/summer.

 

[BasilHayden]

The existing and additional are all micro converters. No new drawings and sce was not involved. He’s still working off the original NEM agreement he had when the original system was installed 8-10 yrs ago.

He may not have been caught, but it is definately a violation and could come back in an ugly way, but at this point its probably too late to even try and fix it.

 

[Gramps]

My son lives in Eastvale. He did solar on his house about 2 years ago. Used a company called Sunrun. He did the LG battery backup BUT..........the battery has never worked. He is told the battery has been on backorder for over a year. I'm thinking they are pulling his chain. Anyone run into this issue?

 

[Done-it-again]

He may not have been caught, but it is definately a violation and could come back in an ugly way, but at this point its probably too late to even try and fix it.

I completely agree. But it’s like speeding, you only in trouble if you get caught. A lot of people speed.

All parts were bought and a installed by a certified installer, who may or may not be union.

Question. Since he still uses 15% more than he produces at the end of the year. Could that be a possibility he hasn’t been looked at? He doesn’t back feed that much if any in to the grid.

4500 sq ft house faces north.
Pool
2 ac set to 67
3ac’s in motor home set to 75
Outside lights galore

 

[Ace in the Hole]

My son lives in Eastvale. He did solar on his house about 2 years ago. Used a company called Sunrun. He did the LG battery backup BUT..........the battery has never worked. He is told the battery has been on backorder for over a year. I'm thinking they are pulling his chain. Anyone run into this issue?

Shoot me a pm, and I’ll explain how to escalate it. A year is beyond unacceptable and I'm guessing since he bought via Sunrun he's still being billed for it.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Batteries dont change your breaker size at all. Please dont try to do the batteries on your own, its completely different and much more complicated to do right.

Batteries arent used to send power to the grid, they are used to avoid pulling power from the grid when the rates are higher and the sun isnt providing your power. TOU costs you the most from 4-9pm. Just as your solar system is shutting down. But if you have a properly sized battery you should have plenty of power to make it through that period and then have power on reserve just in case the grid shuts down. Most battery systems are nowhere near large enough to run the entire house for any extended period of time, but they can keep your essential loads up and running while waiting for the utilities to give you back the grid.

I have read that battery backups do not charge when the grid is down. Is this primarily so people don't try to go "independent"? Or is it a safety concern thing?

 

[highvoltagehands]

Believe it or not there are still coal fired electrical generating plants in Calif.

Private operators who want to switch to Natural Gas - Jet engine fired generation. Simply hit the start button and 11 minutes later ya got up to 410 megawatts of electricity flowing.

An average boiler steam generation plants takes from 1 to 3 days to get online.

Combined cycle at the mines means they also use the existing steam turbine and generator and it's really cheap electricity and eliminated 90% of water usage and pollution.

Power companies don't want it because they have to buy the excess power and they have Newsom on puppet strings who also, in addition wants no more Natural gas anything. That's a Bay Area Elite Marxist political platform plank.

I believe California only has one small coal plant operating in Trona. California’s in-state coal-fired generation in 2017 dropped from 0.16 percent to 0.14 percent of the state’s electric load. But I think Cal still has contracts in place until 2025 to buy up to 4% from out of state Coal Fired Cogens.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

I completely agree. But it’s like speeding, you only in trouble if you get caught. A lot of people speed.

All parts were bought and a installed by a certified installer, who may or may not be union.

Question. Since he still uses 15% more than he produces at the end of the year. Could that be a possibility he hasn’t been looked at? He doesn’t back feed that much if any in to the grid.

While a lot of people speed, expanding a system without utility approval is a lot less common than you would think for several reasons. If caught you are risking far more than a slap on the wrist/small fine. Off hand the system could be locked out by the utility completely indefinitely, litigation/damages could be a result, etc. Installer could be penalized or prevented from installing systems with that utility etc. He essentially breached his contract (NEM) with the utility.

The installer knew what he was doing is wrong...going to guess he isn't a company owner etc as essentially anyone I know/work with is not going to risk being barred from installing by a utility to make a few bucks (this happens, CPS in Texas will absolutely bar an installer..and I have no doubt the cali utilities would as well). Doesn't matter if it's one panel or 20.

This is likely why he never got looked at...but it also doesn't mean it never will happen. While unlikely at this point in this case, I cannot emphasize enough NOT to do this.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

I have read that battery backups do not charge when the grid is down. Is this primarily so people don't try to go "independent"? Or is it a safety concern thing?

More complicated than that. Systems are required to have a rapid shutdown (think milliseconds) to prevent back feeding to the grid. Some systems can be configured to run independently in case of outage, but thats a different conversation.

It's a safety issue primarily for utility workers.

 

[TPC]

Our Powerwall recharges off solar if the grid connection is down.
Certain house circuits open/unusable like my welder 14 - 50 plug and the microwave but the car charger still stays hot.
We tested it, yeah it charges off solar when the main is disconnected.

Tesla wanted the house generator connection removed completely before they would start work. Purely safety concerns, fine with me.

Note: Red Emergency kill button and manual disconnect. No problem either, I get it:

 

[TPC]

I believe California only has one small coal plant operating in Trona. California’s in-state coal-fired generation in 2017 dropped from 0.16 percent to 0.14 percent of the state’s electric load. But I think Cal still has contracts in place until 2025 to buy up to 4% from out of state Coal Fired Cogens.

I should have added this. I worked on the start up when I worked for LADWP:

"Intermountain Power Plant is a large coal-fired power plant at Delta, Utah, USA. It has an installed capacity of 1,900 MW, is owned by the Intermountain Power Agency, and is operated by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power.

It is scheduled in 2025 for replacement with an 840 MW natural gas plant, designed to also burn "green hydrogen."

 

[WhatExit?]

Our Powerwall recharges off solar if the grid connection is down.
Certain house circuits open/unusable like my welder 14 - 50 plug and the microwave but the car charger still stays hot.
We tested it, yeah it charges off solar when the main is disconnected.

Tesla wanted the house generator connection removed completely before they would start work. Purely safety concerns, fine with me.

Note: Red Emergency kill button and manual disconnect. No problem either, I get it:

I'm no expert...why wouldn't those batteries be inside the garage to keep them cooler? Or is having the batteries inside a fire risk?

 

[TPC]

I'm no expert...why wouldn't those batteries be inside the garage to keep them cooler? Or is having the batteries inside a fire risk?

Tesla says it doesn’t matter. Weather tight with ample fans.
Our garage gets hot and the shady side of the house was their choosing.

 

[BasilHayden]

My son lives in Eastvale. He did solar on his house about 2 years ago. Used a company called Sunrun. He did the LG battery backup BUT..........the battery has never worked. He is told the battery has been on backorder for over a year. I'm thinking they are pulling his chain. Anyone run into this issue?

unfortunately the answer lies in one place, Sunrun.

That said there were some issues with LG batteries and they could in fact be part of the problem. But with Sunrun good luck ever getting it right.

 

[BasilHayden]

More complicated than that. Systems are required to have a rapid shutdown (think milliseconds) to prevent back feeding to the grid. Some systems can be configured to run independently in case of outage, but thats a different conversation.

It's a safety issue primarily for utility workers.

Our enphase solution does both Backup, read will operate when grid is down, and can do load shed as well, you choose the amount to load shed. We prefer to reserve 40% of the battery for backup to make it to the morning when the sun comes back up.

Tesla works and is the best known solution, but as OP mentioned their customer service is lacking and frankly the equipment is not technically as advanced. But thats an argument for another day. Good thing is many have the solution and are happy with the choice they made.

Being a part of the team at enphase, ie involved with development, I am rightly biased. Battery solutions will only get better and anti solar moves by the utilities in CA will push even more to a battery solution. You will remain grid tied, but in reality you can be damn near independant.

 

[RVR SWPR]

10 years from today will residential solar panels installed today be obsolete far as size and number of panels required? For example early back yard satellite dishes were massive compared to today.

 

[BasilHayden]

10 years from today will residential solar panels installed today be obsolete far as size and number of panels required? For example early back yard satellite dishes were massive compared to today.

Haha, great question. Yes and no. If your system was properly sized in the first place and you were sold quality product then it should serve your needs reasonably well for 25 years. But...everyone is increasing power usage significantly, even those of us who worship burning precious resources in abundance have considered or pulled the trigger on an electric car, most doubling their usage. So now your system is greatly undersized.

Has the panel gotten more effecient over the years yes, but actually my biggest gripe with the choices being made by the manufactures is that they are getting more wattage by using more square footage. 10 years ago the panels sold were 250w each, now we sell 360-400w panels, but physically they are 10% greater surface area. Over the last few years there has been very little increase in actual output, more a function of surface area.Panels are actually increasing in physical size. Tech will continue to get better, but not increasing at the rate that you see with computers. Plus by procrastinating you are getting a worse deal from the utilities from year to year. As mentioned above you have a short window left for the current NEM 2 deal. If you are thinking about it, then now is the time to make the call.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Our enphase solution does both Backup, read will operate when grid is down, and can do load shed as well, you choose the amount to load shed. We prefer to reserve 40% of the battery for backup to make it to the morning when the sun comes back up.

Tesla works and is the best known solution, but as OP mentioned their customer service is lacking and frankly the equipment is not technically as advanced. But thats an argument for another day. Good thing is many have the solution and are happy with the choice they made.

Being a part of the team at enphase, ie involved with development, I am rightly biased. Battery solutions will only get better and anti solar moves by the utilities in CA will push even more to a battery solution. You will remain grid tied, but in reality you can be damn near independant.

True in all aspects, I didn't have the time to invest in long reply's this morning. the new Duracell branded stuff is going to make a dent in the market I think as well..it's pretty cool. Enphase has an amazing product (battery) in terms of how it works...they just overpriced it from the start and I really think that hurt market penetration in a lot of areas on their battery systems. Their major price cut not to long ago should help that though. I'm a big enphase fanboy lol

 

[TPC]

10 years from today will residential solar panels installed today be obsolete far as size and number of panels required? For example early back yard satellite dishes were massive compared to today.

I think we went through that renaissance. Panels today put out way, way more power in the same space as just a few years ago.

 

[WhatExit?]

What about First Solar’s technology/product? And it’s made in the USA

 

[yz450mm]

Haha, great question. Yes and no. If your system was properly sized in the first place and you were sold quality product then it should serve your needs reasonably well for 25 years. But...everyone is increasing power usage significantly, even those of us who worship burning precious resources in abundance have considered or pulled the trigger on an electric car, most doubling their usage. So now your system is greatly undersized.

Has the panel gotten more effecient over the years yes, but actually my biggest gripe with the choices being made by the manufactures is that they are getting more wattage by using more square footage. 10 years ago the panels sold were 250w each, now we sell 360-400w panels, but physically they are 10% greater surface area. Over the last few years there has been very little increase in actual output, more a function of surface area.Panels are actually increasing in physical size. Tech will continue to get better, but not increasing at the rate that you see with computers. Plus by procrastinating you are getting a worse deal from the utilities from year to year. As mentioned above you have a short window left for the current NEM 2 deal. If you are thinking about it, then now is the time to make the call.

We just bought a new place three months ago, I thought the huge solar system would have us covered. I think it's 40 panels, but it only covers a third of our electric bill. 3,100 ft house, saltwater pool and electric spa, pool house, two shops, and five refrigerators/ freezers running 24/7.

The panels are 18 years old, and the inverters have already been replaced a few years ago under warranty. The original solar installer said that they cannot add any capacity, anything new would be an additional system installation. They said they would do it with or without a permit, but I'm looking at 20 to 25 k.

I can get a DIY package for 6k and handle the install myself. Are you saying that Edison is going to try and f*** with me down the road? I'm a licensed General contractor, and I self perform all my electrical work. I can do it all to code, but is that going to be an issue with this new version of the solar regulation?

 

[Ace in the Hole]

We just bought a new place three months ago, I thought the huge solar system would have us covered. I think it's 40 panels, but it only covers a third of our electric bill. 3,100 ft house, saltwater pool and electric spa, pool house, two shops, and five refrigerators/ freezers running 24/7.

The panels are 18 years old, and the inverters have already been replaced a few years ago under warranty. The original solar installer said that they cannot add any capacity, anything new would be an additional system installation. They said they would do it with or without a permit, but I'm looking at 20 to 25 k.

I can get a DIY package for 6k and handle the install myself. Are you saying that Edison is going to try and f*** with me down the road? I'm a licensed General contractor, and I self perform all my electrical work. I can do it all to code, but is that going to be an issue with this new version of the solar regulation?

At 18 years old the panels are going to be very low wattage, so there is no surprise it isn't running it all... So you are going to be chaining capacity..which will require utility notification and permitting. I'd really like to see what you are getting for $6k, because that isn't remotely realistic for the parts in a modern 40 panel system.

To answer your core question...if you do not do it the right way yes they absolutely will. Your export numbers arent going to just magically increase, and your import numbers decrease without a red flag going up. That kind of stuff is data monitored. Solar is regulated, the utility has to approve of changes, its not only a legal concern, its a safety issue as well.

 

[mjc]

At 18 years old the panels are going to be very low wattage, so there is no surprise it isn't running it all... So you are going to be chaining capacity..which will require utility notification and permitting. I'd really like to see what you are getting for $6k, because that isn't remotely realistic for the parts in a modern 40 panel system.

To answer your core question...if you do not do it the right way yes they absolutely will. Your export numbers arent going to just magically increase, and your import numbers decrease without a red flag going up. That kind of stuff is data monitored. Solar is regulated, the utility has to approve of changes, its not only a legal concern, its a safety issue as well.

If he changes out old for new is that a regulated thing, as no more panels just new higher wattage ones?

 

[BasilHayden]

You are under an agreement for a specific size system, in his case something like 8,000 watts. So yes he can trade for new panels right up to 8000 watts any more and he is in violation of his NEM agreement. (Ok there is an 1000 watt buffer usually) At 18 years that NEM agreement is almost done anyways, I would find the agreement and read the fine print if I were in his shoes. It may be better to bite the bullet on a new system the size he truly needs. It will be much more than $6k. Honestly time for a roof also when he pulls old system down most likely.

 

[Taboma]

While a lot of people speed, expanding a system without utility approval is a lot less common than you would think for several reasons. If caught you are risking far more than a slap on the wrist/small fine. Off hand the system could be locked out by the utility completely indefinitely, litigation/damages could be a result, etc. Installer could be penalized or prevented from installing systems with that utility etc. He essentially breached his contract (NEM) with the utility.

The installer knew what he was doing is wrong...going to guess he isn't a company owner etc as essentially anyone I know/work with is not going to risk being barred from installing by a utility to make a few bucks (this happens, CPS in Texas will absolutely bar an installer..and I have no doubt the cali utilities would as well). Doesn't matter if it's one panel or 20.

This is likely why he never got looked at...but it also doesn't mean it never will happen. While unlikely at this point in this case, I cannot emphasize enough NOT to do this.

------ A Public Service Announcement -----

Please remember this is RDP.
Where The majority are in favor of Theft being punishable by non-surgical extremity removal, or death.
The Exception:
This act deemed acceptable by most members if this is an act of Theft By "Sticking it to the Man".
"The Man" being any governmental or private institution with whom we become indebted or are dependent on for any and all services.
In which case, fraud is not only tolerable, it's promoted, regardless if it subjects "The Public" or other persons from being burdened with the additional encumbrance as a result of this theft.

Thank You

 

[yz450mm]

You are under an agreement for a specific size system, in his case something like 8,000 watts. So yes he can trade for new panels right up to 8000 watts any more and he is in violation of his NEM agreement. (Ok there is an 1000 watt buffer usually) At 18 years that NEM agreement is almost done anyways, I would find the agreement and read the fine print if I were in his shoes. It may be better to bite the bullet on a new system the size he truly needs. It will be much more than $6k. Honestly time for a roof also when he pulls old system down most likely.

House was built in 2004, so the roof is good to go for a long time. I just counted and we actually have 48 panels, with two sunny boy inverters that are 7 years old.

My thought process was that I could buy individual panels and start swapping out some of these 200 watt panels for higher wattage panels, depending on the capacity of the inverters. If these panels have degraded by 25%, then they're really not putting out much compared to new ones.

Or I could grab a 5kw DIY system for around 8k, put it on the shop roof, and tie it into the sub panel on the shop. I thought I saw one for around 6500, but it appears it's a little bit more now (8-10k).

5kW DIY Solar Kit With 330W SunSpark Solar Panels

Shop our 5 kW Sunspark solar panel kit with Enphase IQ8 microinverters to add solar power to your home or business.

www.gogreensolar.com

 

[Ace in the Hole]

My thought process was that I could buy individual panels and start swapping out some of these 200 watt panels for higher wattage panels, depending on the capacity of the inverters. If these panels have degraded by 25%, then they're really not putting out much compared to new ones.

Or I could grab a 5kw DIY system for around 8k, put it on the shop roof, and tie it into the sub panel on the shop. I thought I saw one for around 6500, but it appears it's a little bit more now (8-10k).

5kW DIY Solar Kit With 330W SunSpark Solar Panels

Shop our 5 kW Sunspark solar panel kit with Enphase IQ8 microinverters to add solar power to your home or business.

www.gogreensolar.com

View attachment 1132839 View attachment 1132841

Typing on my phone so this may sound short..

You should research how string inverters work. You’re not going to get your desired result pulling some old and replacing with new higher wattage panels partially.

Additionally you need to know inverter size, etc.

If you want to have a chat offline about it I can block off a window this week to do it. Just PM me. You will spend more to do it the wrong way then to do it the right way. If you are licensed it shouldn’t be a big deal.. I may even be able to supply and ship you what you need to do it.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

I've been thinking about doing solar on my house lately. Not a big house, 1800sqft, All of the appliances are newer and we have a newer AC unit as well. We definitely like to keep our house cold in the summer and the wife likes to run the heater in the winter. Our Electric bill just keeps going up so I figured I would ask here if solar is worth it. We live in OC. Any members have a company that does it? Whats the cost of it? Are the telsa (or any brand) Battery walls worth it? Any advice is appreciated!

Did you get enough input to make an informed decision?
I think you might want to be wary of the 'commercial' suppliers/installers like sunrun. I can tell you particularly from my own experience that they will want to direct you toward their particular business model. Anything out of their 'standard' will be met with befuddled looks and argument as to why you do not want to do that. (All I asked for was a R/R on obsolete/defective panels, and they could not handle that, they wanted to upsell me a new roof, etc.)

As far as batteries, it is really a 'gee whiz' kind of thing...bragging rights, "energy independence," etc.

Most of the time the batteries are quiescently awaiting their opportunity to fill in when mains fail, which is hardly ever. If yu do get a bank for backup, you can do what I do and do a monthly 'conditioning' cycle drawing down the battery bank (I have AGM batteries) by shutting off mains for a day or two. It will mean you get 2 out of 30 days at zero consumption which will definitely reduce your average bill by 7% or so.

I am not sure that without installing a directed circuit that I would be able to specifically draw down batteries in order to charge an electric car, as one Tesla system owner claimed...that seems to confound the NEM deal that CPUC set up for gridtied systems. I do not know, though. If it is true, I will be setting up may system to do that - soon.

There was some threading about US suppliers, and there are a few like First Solar (I made good coin on stock in that company).
Heres a link to a recent list of 10 US suppliers.

Depending on your time horizon, you could defer the decision long enough to consider perovskite panels. These are probably still a few years out, thougn Saule Technologies does have some unique BAPV products that might be bleeding edge enough for those with coin to spare.

Good luck

 

[Echo Lodge]

This should make installs cheaper.

Electrek.co: Siemens’ new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades.

Siemens' new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades

Siemens' game-changing EV charger adapter can end costly electrical panel upgrades and enable home chargers to be connected in minutes.

electrek.co

 

[Ace in the Hole]

This should make installs cheaper.

Electrek.co: Siemens’ new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades.

Siemens' new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades

Siemens' game-changing EV charger adapter can end costly electrical panel upgrades and enable home chargers to be connected in minutes.

electrek.co

Will be interesting to see how much the utility charges to do a shutdown/meter swap to enable this....it also limits where you can hook the charger to. I see some purpose for it but its not a game changer...and will just be another option.

 

[Echo Lodge]

Will be interesting to see how much the utility charges to do a shutdown/meter swap to enable this....it also limits where you can hook the charger to. I see some purpose for it but its not a game changer...and will just be another option.

Couldn't you just run the 10 4 wire to wherever you want your EV charger to be installed? My home built in the 60s was a Medallion Home (all electric accept for the water heater). When I swapped out the appliances to gas years ago I had a free 50 amp breaker. I ran 10 4 wire from my panel in the backyard to my garage where I installed a 15-40 plug.