Sloppy rudder help.

[bsfreeburg]

I am hoping someone here can give me a little guidance. My wife and I have inherited her father's 73 Dimarco runner-bottom and I have been tasked with trying to get it running smoothly and to stop the leaks. At this point there is a lot of slop in the rudder seal. Packing it full of grease stops the leak for a short period of time but it quickly starts leaking again.

Any help or guidance would be appreciated. I am pretty mechanical, just not sure about this setup.

Cheers,

Brett

 

[CampbellCarl]

Good chance that it's original and need to go away. Not a complicated job, just tedious and sometimes a pain in the ass to get into tight spaces. Depending on the trailer's rudder guard clearances or remove ability, you need to remove the rudder by disconnecting every thing attached to it and drop it out thru the hull bottom.

Replacements are readily available and fairly standard diameter and bolt spacing. Rudder shaft seals may be replaceable in that unit or purchase new from Rex Marine, Bergeron Marine, Glenwood Marine or drop down a couple of threads right here and read about DiMarco21's seals. Good stuff.

 

[FlatNv]

on top of what Carl said.
what's your location? lots of great V-drive guys around that would give you a courtesy look over, lots of things on these boats that if not right can bite you, like no safety collar on the rudder.
oh and post some pics of the boat :thumbup:

 

[74 spectra20 v-drive]

You could have a couple of issues, being that the stuffing box is more than likely worn you could have worn the shaft on the rudder as well. I had that situation with a Spectra I am restoring once the shaft is worn no amount of grease will keep the water out. The stuffing box can be a pain to get out, more than likely the cav plates are over the 4 bolts as well so they have to come off. The threads look to have recently had the bolts off so that is a good sign as sometimes after decades of being on they just wont come off.
As mentioned in the post before this is a great site and there are a lot of folks willing to assist. Getting into a dry boat is a beautiful thing!

 

[DiMarco21]

Thanks for the Carl!!!

Give me a call if I can help ya Brett.

Phil 925-323-9093
D21 Enterprises

 

[bsfreeburg]

I am in Bakersfield, but I make it to LA several times per month. I pulled the rudder out today and the brass bushing in the thru hull is slightly worn but not as much as the rudder shaft. The shaft of the rudder is worn about 1/32 where it passes through the bottom, or so I would guess but my battery is dead on my high tech caliper .

1) I am guessing I need a new rudder and new rudder stuffing box. Any ideas on how/where to get a rudder would be awesome!

2) I am pretty sure the center cavitation plate has to come out to replace the bottom bushing of the thru hull assembly. while I am at it the fitting that goes thru the transom for the plate rod is leaking badly as well so I might as well fix that too, but I have no idea what that fitting would be called?

3) The old unit is a Masterseal I believe, but cannot find one online anywhere. Does anyone know if the four bolt pattern will be standard to any other stuffing box assemblies? Do I need to take the old one out to make sure what it is?

And of course after getting the rudder out i was able to get a better look at the prop shaft and the strut bearing......and its got a lot of wiggle. How do i figure out what size and make I need to order for that bad boy?

At some point we are planning to rework the whole boat, paint, rebuild the engine etc..... but for this trip I just need to get it running and hopefully much more water tight than last year.

Thanks

Brett

 

[74 spectra20 v-drive]

Fortunately everything you need is still easy to get. I have a 1 1/8 inch shaft steel rudder that I picked up for my day cruiser but the blade was too small in my opinion for the big boat. Give me a call if you like and we can chat. 562-879-9508 Cliff

 

[AzGeo]

You can get all the parts you need from Glenwood in Gardena Ca. You will need to cut the stuffing box bushing area to length, for install . NOTE; you need to cut the stuffing box bushing area about 1/4" longer than the current piece . See the damage to your plate ? This longer bushing area will prevent the rudder from contacting the plates while going straight and in turns WHEN THE PLATES ARE DOWN . Use new screws, nuts and washers, also I use Marine Tex to bed down/seal all the openings . TEST FIT DRY, you may need to 'adjust things' to align the new thru hull and the upper bearing . Also, now is a good time to go thru all the pulleys, cables, chain, shaft, up to the wheel, and make sure nothing is worn or damaged . Glenwood Marine .com Be safe .....

 

[bsfreeburg]

The old rudder appears to be cast steel, i.e. a magnet sticks to it. The new steel rudder costs almost three times more than the cast manganese bronze rudder and I am wondering why you would choose one versus the other.

Also the cast manganese rudder only comes in 1-1/8" I am already replacing the stuffing box, and even with a new 1-1/8" pillow block for the cross arm, the manganese is half the cost overall.

We are not planning to race the boat, mainly we want it to be reliable so we can bring to the river a couple times a year to cruise and ski a little now and then. We have another boat we do most of our skiing behind.

Thanks,

Brett

 

[DiMarco21]

You can get all the parts you need from Glenwood in Gardena Ca. You will need to cut the stuffing box bushing area to length, for install . NOTE; you need to cut the stuffing box bushing area about 1/4" longer than the current piece . See the damage to your plate ? This longer bushing area will prevent the rudder from contacting the plates while going straight and in turns WHEN THE PLATES ARE DOWN . Use new screws, nuts and washers, also I use Marine Tex to bed down/seal all the openings . TEST FIT DRY, you may need to 'adjust things' to align the new thru hull and the upper bearing . Also, now is a good time to go thru all the pulleys, cables, chain, shaft, up to the wheel, and make sure nothing is worn or damaged . Glenwood Marine .com Be safe .....

Sorry, gotta disagree with you. The bottom of the rudder box should be flush with the bottom of the cav plates. This set up uses the bottom of the cav plates and rudder box to control to "up" play in the rudder.....Note the wear grooves. It should not make contact with either.

There should be a safety collar inside doing this job along with one controlling the "down" play. I add a thin Delrin/Nylon washer between the safety collars and the mating surfaces to avoid metal to metal contact.

Just how I do it.

Thanks, Phil

 

[bsfreeburg]

The current plan is to get a new raw 4130 rudder, probably from Jersey Speed skiffs, as raw steel is the old rudder was i believe. I think the wear on the bottom of the cav plate was a result of the play that had developed in the because the rudder shaft was worn 3/64" and the brass bushing on the ruffing box was worn about 1/32". I do have a few more questions for all you kind folks.

1) What was the grey "caulk" that was all over the place between the boat and the cav plate? Is that Marine-tex? and where do i get it?

2) What is the best way to remove the prop strut bushings? Is it possible that only the rear bushing is worn? the front still seems tight.

3) ONe of the aluminum struts to the cav plate is cracked at the thread on the upper end. Is there anywhere to find old aluminum ones... Glenwood only seems to have stainless?

4) Any hints on how to remove the shaft coupler would be great too! I have removed the bolts and set screws, but the damn thing won't budge!

Thanks!

The more I work on this thing, look at pictures and forums, the more I want to strip it and redo it......I know.......lots of work!

 

[AzGeo]

Sorry, gotta disagree with you. The bottom of the rudder box should be flush with the bottom of the cav plates. This set up uses the bottom of the cav plates and rudder box to control to "up" play in the rudder.....Note the wear grooves. It should not make contact with either.

There should be a safety collar inside doing this job along with one controlling the "down" play. I add a thin Delrin/Nylon washer between the safety collars and the mating surfaces to avoid metal to metal contact.

Just how I do it.

Thanks, Phil

Phil, I want the stuffing box sleeve/bushing area to prevent the rudder from EVER contacting the cavitation plates . Normal use, and "bouncing on the beach" will drive the rudder blade into the plates, unless they are stopped by the stuffing box length . (less parts to come loose, no inside bushings needed) The dangerous side of this is allowing the rudder blade to come in contact with the plates when they are DOWN, as in a turn . Ask some circle boat drivers about having no steering with their plates down . My other point to having the stuffing box "hang down 1/8" to 3/16", is that when it is worn and spread out, it can be easily "ground down to a taper" and quickly removed and replaced . Sure, there are a number of ways to do this, but I like to use less fasteners, less moving parts, and my result has been 100%, so why would I change ?

 

[vdcruiser]

Check the mounting bolt spacing on the rudder stuffing box, I have found the newer ones to be different than the older ones.

 

[DiMarco21]

Phil, I want the stuffing box sleeve/bushing area to prevent the rudder from EVER contacting the cavitation plates . Normal use, and "bouncing on the beach" will drive the rudder blade into the plates, unless they are stopped by the stuffing box length . (less parts to come loose, no inside bushings needed) The dangerous side of this is allowing the rudder blade to come in contact with the plates when they are DOWN, as in a turn . Ask some circle boat drivers about having no steering with their plates down . My other point to having the stuffing box "hang down 1/8" to 3/16", is that when it is worn and spread out, it can be easily "ground down to a taper" and quickly removed and replaced . Sure, there are a number of ways to do this, but I like to use less fasteners, less moving parts, and my result has been 100%, so why would I change ?

Sorry, if I'm reading correctly that is acceptable to let the rudder grind into the rudder box while it is "bouncing on the beach" then we definitely come from two different schools of thought. A properly set-up rudder box / steering system should last years with minor upkeep.

But then again, I would like v-drivers to buy more rudder boxes lol.

Thanks, Phil

 

[AzGeo]

Sorry, if I'm reading correctly that is acceptable to let the rudder grind into the rudder box while it is "bouncing on the beach" then we definitely come from two different schools of thought. A properly set-up rudder box / steering system should last years with minor upkeep.

But then again, I would like v-drivers to buy more rudder boxes lol.

Thanks, Phil

No, that's not a normal condition of operation, but has happened by accident to a number of people . It actually does not 'grind into the stuffing box', because it should have some "up and down movement" when mounted . Also, many are using 'long levers' (2" and longer) on their set ups, which will move the plates so much that they 'strike' the back of the rudder blade, and instantly cause a loss of steering . Often the rudder shaft would have 1/8" + - of up and down movement, being controlled by the safety collars on the inside . Not the top bearing set screw . I usually adjust the steering cable tension to a point that 'suspends the quadrant and rudder', in the center of that 1/8" of shaft travel . No matter how many 'safety collar set screw dimples' are in the rudder shaft, I always cut the rudder log below the hull and cavitation plates, preventing the rudder blade from ever contacting them and any sudden loss of steering . I always de-burr and clean up the shaft and rudder blade top, and I am using bronze stuffing boxes . Maybe with your aluminum stuffing box, you might consider a stainless steel AN washer at the top of the rudder to the bottom of the plates . The boat in his photos has some prior damage to the plates . Even if those plates were "sanded down smooth or replaced", I would still want any rudder blade to be far away from the plates or bottom of the boat in a permanent manner, and I use a longer shaft log to do that . I know my method works because I just looked at a Howard 21' (for sale here in Havasu), last week . I built the boat in 1985 and it has all the original rigging still in it . The long stuffing box and all . I'm sure this boat has been "driven thru the campfire and on the rocks" a number of times over the years, I remember the original owner . It has had the Turbo 468 motor, T-400 and driveline cover replaced, from use . (or abuse) The 1 1/8" SK style rudder blade has never touched the hull bottom, (two plate V-bottom 21') and it is not 'ground into the stuffing box' . Even if the boat was parked for half of it's lifetime, it's still got 15 (out of 30) years of use with no visible grinding damage or wear . Mr bsfreeburg, if the damage to the plates is from just 'wear' then the rudder is definitely too close to the boat bottom . You want a quality built "true wedge steel rudder", and cut only the amount of keyway you will require for your use . If the blade material was not "Blanchard ground" on both sides, it is not a "true wedge" . Thank you all for reading, this shows that there are always 'multiple ways to do things', often with different reasons in mind .

 

[CampbellCarl]

The current plan is to get a new raw 4130 rudder, probably from Jersey Speed skiffs, as raw steel is the old rudder was i believe. I think the wear on the bottom of the cav plate was a result of the play that had developed in the because the rudder shaft was worn 3/64" and the brass bushing on the ruffing box was worn about 1/32". I do have a few more questions for all you kind folks.

1) What was the grey "caulk" that was all over the place between the boat and the cav plate? Is that Marine-tex? and where do i get it?

2) What is the best way to remove the prop strut bushings? Is it possible that only the rear bushing is worn? the front still seems tight.

3) ONe of the aluminum struts to the cav plate is cracked at the thread on the upper end. Is there anywhere to find old aluminum ones... Glenwood only seems to have stainless?

4) Any hints on how to remove the shaft coupler would be great too! I have removed the bolts and set screws, but the damn thing won't budge!

Thanks!

The more I work on this thing, look at pictures and forums, the more I want to strip it and redo it......I know.......lots of work!

2) Use a hack saw blade and cut thru the bushing (only the bushing, don't let the blade cut into the strut barrel) then kinda fold the cut ends back with a screw driver or pick and it'll come out.

4) Coupler should have a threaded port or two that when you put the coupler bolts into, will act like a wedge to open the grasp on the shaft. Also, home made mixture of 50% ATF and 50% Acetone works great as a penetrant oil to loosen stuff up...(no smoking around this mixture!)

 

[74 spectra20 v-drive]

On removing the coupler, a trick my dad taught me is to never use the couple bolts to spread the coupler. Get some good quality bolts and turn a point on the end of them so when you screw them down your not flattening out the bottom thread and then screwing the threads on the coupler as you remove them. I have a set up in my "boat Bag" with several purpose built bolts and such to grab when doing any maintenance or repair.

 

[racerden]

RUDDER- BARBER WELDING, SANTA FE SPRINGS CA
STUFFING BOX- PM UP DIMARCO 21

MONEY- YUP,but it'll be worth every penny

 

[braindead]

DiMarco21 x2:thumbup:

 

[DiMarco21]

RUDDER- BARBER WELDING, SANTA FE SPRINGS CA
STUFFING BOX- PM UP DIMARCO 21

MONEY- YUP,but it'll be worth every penny

DiMarco21 x2:thumbup:

Thank you very much!!!! :thumbsup

 

[santos4racing]

RUDDER- BARBER WELDING, SANTA FE SPRINGS CA
STUFFING BOX- PM UP DIMARCO 21

MONEY- YUP,but it'll be worth every penny

Thanks Denny!! But we are in Bell Gardens 562-927-1906

Kent Santos