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rivermobster

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They learn stuff. She just told me it takes longer to become a cosmetologist, than it does it because a cop.

So I looked it up...

Basic training police academy: 600 to 800hrs

Cosmetology licence: 1600hrs

What do you say to that?? That definitely does not seem right.
 

PlanB

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My academy in the early 90's was 5 days a week , 8 hours a day, for six months. Then you add in 3-4 months of field training and 18 months of probation. Then you have mandated yearly in service training.
 

sintax

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just wondering... what sort of "defund the police" class is she taking, and why is this a topic?

and for the record, I'm all for training and education for these poor police.
 

2Driver

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The BS my kid is having to take to get a business degree at ASU is ridiculous. He could get the same education for what he needs with 30% of his classes cut out. 3 years is max for undergraduate.

The longer you are there, the longer you are a paying customer.
 

lenmann

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The BS my kid is having to take to get a business degree at ASU is ridiculous. He could get the same education for what he needs with 30% of his classes cut out. 3 years is max for undergraduate.

The longer you are there, the longer you are a paying customer.
Higher education is BIG business. If you were running it you would be incentivized to do the same.
 
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rivermobster

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just wondering... what sort of "defund the police" class is she taking, and why is this a topic?

and for the record, I'm all for training and education for these poor police.
She's actually in pre med at USC.

And just to verify, I googled the info. I found it hard to believe myself.
 

Flying_Lavey

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They learn stuff. She just told me it takes longer to become a cosmetologist, than it does it because a cop.

So I looked it up...

Basic training police academy: 600 to 800hrs

Cosmetology licence: 1600hrs

What do you say to that?? That definitely does not seem right.
My academy in the early 90's was 5 days a week , 8 hours a day, for six months. Then you add in 3-4 months of field training and 18 months of probation. Then you have mandated yearly in service training.
PlanB hits it right here...... The cosmetology license is once you graduate, you are done. Police training doesnt stop until after the field training. Along with the retraining for various things throughout a career. If you figure 6 months of straight time equals out to 1,020 hours..... that then becomes a very different picture. But that goes against the liberal doctrine so...... it must be wrong.
 

rivermobster

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PlanB hits it right here...... The cosmetology license is once you graduate, you are done. Police training doesnt stop until after the field training. Along with the retraining for various things throughout a career. If you figure 6 months of straight time equals out to 1,020 hours..... that then becomes a very different picture. But that goes against the liberal doctrine so...... it must be wrong.
Why bring politics into the discussion? It's not a political issue.

The hose draggers have a fire science degree to put out fires, and after that they get to apply for a job. Makes sense, right??

I support the police 200% in what they do. It's bitch of a job that I sure would not want to do. Like sintax said, I'm all for more training and education for these guys.

I vote fund the living fuck outa them. 👍
 

Flying_Lavey

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Why bring politics into the discussion? It's not a political issue.

The hose draggers have a fire science degree to put out fires, and after that they get to apply for a job. Makes sense, right??

I support the police 200% in what they do. It's bitch of a job that I sure would not want to do. Like sintax said, I'm all for more training and education for these guys.

I vote fund the living fuck outa them. 👍
Because that is typically the only time field education is ignored in topics like this. To discount field training as education for a profession is irresponsible and foolish.
 

rivermobster

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Because that is typically the only time field education is ignored in topics like this. To discount field training as education for a profession is irresponsible and foolish.
Nobody is ignoring anything. Every job is "field training". The kids that would come into the dealerships with an AA in automotive technology were as clueless as clueless could be. They were ready to take on the world, only to find out that they didn't know jack shit.

Unless your a bank teller, you are constantly being "field trained". All of us, you and me both, are constantantly being updated on/in our chosen professions. That's NOT the point I was making...

The point is, our boys in blue should have WAY more support and training before every steeping into the job that they do. Is that something you don't agree with? If not, why not??
 

Singleton

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My oldest spent 4 years @ CU Boulder getting a degree in Evolutionary Environmental Biology. He now is an owner of a carpet cleaning business

I told him I could of saved 200k and just purchased the business as I did. He and his employees complete 80hrs of training a year and more if we get new equipment
 

WYRD

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You must have never had a bad haircut then...
 

lebel409

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My Dad taught Cosmotology at Citrus for years. One day he came home frustrated and said,"here, take this test.". So with a HS degree barely under my belt I took the test and got a 95%. He said that 90% of his class had failed it multiple times. Cosmotology has a LOT of chemistry. It also has a ton of health and safety stuff, makeup, nails, business, etc.

Most people that get into it think that it's a quick haircut, artsy shit and big $. The hard fact is that most (even when the complete the 2000 hours) don't have enough drive or smarts to make a living at it.

I am assuming that while many professions, like police and fire, have training programs, most of what is real to the job has to be learned on the job. A cosmotology license says you are safe to do the job, nothing more.
 

rivermobster

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My Dad taught Cosmotology at Citrus for years. One day he came home frustrated and said,"here, take this test.". So with a HS degree barely under my belt I took the test and got a 95%. He said that 90% of his class had failed it multiple times. Cosmotology has a LOT of chemistry. It also has a ton of health and safety stuff, makeup, nails, business, etc.

Most people that get into it think that it's a quick haircut, artsy shit and big $. The hard fact is that most (even when the complete the 2000 hours) don't have enough drive or smarts to make a living at it.

I am assuming that while many professions, like police and fire, have training programs, most of what is real to the job has to be learned on the job. A cosmotology license says you are safe to do the job, nothing more.
The topic is not so much about cosmetology, as it is about training...

Think about the schooling/training a lawyer has to do. Think about someone in medical field. Think about a degree in psychology.

Our boys in blue basically have to do all of these jobs!!!! And they need to have self defense/martial arts training as well.

The guys can use way more training and funding than they currently get.



Oh and leave wheeler out of this would ya? :p
 

Flying_Lavey

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Nobody is ignoring anything. Every job is "field training". The kids that would come into the dealerships with an AA in automotive technology were as clueless as clueless could be. They were ready to take on the world, only to find out that they didn't know jack shit.

Unless your a bank teller, you are constantly being "field trained". All of us, you and me both, are constantantly being updated on/in our chosen professions. That's NOT the point I was making...

The point is, our boys in blue should have WAY more support and training before every steeping into the job that they do. Is that something you don't agree with? If not, why not??
Dam it! I had a full, nice response typed up and lost it before I could hit send. It basically said.....

I whole heartedly agree our boys could use more training and support so they are better served and able to a better job. However I think it is disingenuous to use just the initial formal training hours when comparing training times for other professiona. I'm pretty sure we all agree that field training is FAR superior for most than institutional training.

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rivermobster

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Dam it! I had a full, nice response typed up and lost it before I could hit send. It basically said.....

I whole heartedly agree our boys could use more training and support so they are better served and able to a better job. However I think it is disingenuous to use just the initial formal training hours when comparing training times for other professiona. I'm pretty sure we all agree that field training is FAR superior for most than institutional training.

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HATE when that happens!!! lol

On the job training is real world training. Absolutely no doubt about that. 👍

With all the different jobs blue has to do, I think a college degree should be required up front. It would weed out the guys that don't have Real incentive, and create a far more well rounded job pool to start with.

I'm just thinking out loud here. Wondering what the LEO's have to say...
 

FlyByWire

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What CA POST sets as the requirement for number of hours required to be certified, and the actual number of hours that academies run are far different. Mine was over 1100, and I still had no clue WTF was going on when I hit the road. The WHY is learned in the classroom, the HOW is learned hands on (no pun intended).

Comparing the training (licensing requirements) between a cosmetologist and a peace officer is like comparing apples to dicks.

Being a cop isn’t all that “hard” with regards to knowledge... that’s why a dumbass like me can do it. It’s keeping yourself alive and emotionally intact until retirement that’s tricky.

I’m all for more training. I welcome it entirely. But I know of no departments that aren’t already hurting for bodies. It’s near impossible to keep up with all the already-required annual training we are all required to do... not sure where they’d find the extra time in the day / week to add more.
 

monkeyswrench

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Have you seen some of the creatures taking cosmetology? Seriously, 1600 hours of paint and body still won't cut it...

Some could pass in a day or two though...

As for LEO's, if they were allowed to police "old school", I think most would need minimal training. See bad guy, stop bad guy. More training for catching bad guys before or after, but no worrying about politics or "image". Just cops and robbers stuff, or eliminating rapists and pedophiles...they can do that on instinct.
 

rickdarling

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We covered our kids through college. U of A and Gonzaga. While I really don’t think the education was necessarily the biggest bang for the buck (since there are clearly more efficient ways to achieving success), the overall experience has certainly made them adults and has provided them with a life prospective that is broader then would have been achieved in another direction. Both are doing well and we have no regrets.
 

Ballyhoo

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They learn stuff. She just told me it takes longer to become a cosmetologist, than it does it because a cop.

So I looked it up...

Basic training police academy: 600 to 800hrs

Cosmetology licence: 1600hrs

What do you say to that?? That definitely does not seem right.
It’s true.
 

PlumLoco

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I think it was a police chief in Texas that I heard being interviewed when the departments in that area were considering doing away with a college degree being needed for becoming a police officer. I remember him saying that even hiring college grads was still no guarantee that they could properly fill out a report. He felt like finding someone who could properly fill out the forms was the hardest part of the job to get done properly, all the rest could be imporved with training. Wish I could remember more details but it was a while back.
 

BoatCop

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When I was an administrator at my Dept, I implemented a basic reading, spelling, grammar test, based off of 8th grade requirements. All new applicants and any promotion candidates had to take and pass the test with a 70% score, average of all 3 tests. 3 out of 5 applicants couldn't pass the test. We also made those Deputies with poor report writing skills take them to assess their weaknesses, and then are required to retake the tests once a quarter until they pass. They must show a significant improvement each time. If their scores drop, they're placed on probation and terminated if they can't improve. We had some writing in the 30-40% range. One guy who was in the 50% range actually took writing and English classes at the Community College to be able to pass.

The one thing we found was those with lower test scores tended to be the ones that required the most direct supervision and often were involved in more disciplinary actions.
 

monkeyswrench

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I understand written and verbal communication skills are necessary for LE...but...



Lately, this country country could use an army of illiterate Wyatt Earps!
 

rivermobster

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Do you need all the hours to just do waxing? Asking for a friend
I remember a few years back, some dude (on here) was talking about getting his junk waxed. I wonder if he ever went though with it!!! lol


We covered our kids through college. U of A and Gonzaga. While I really don’t think the education was necessarily the biggest bang for the buck (since there are clearly more efficient ways to achieving success), the overall experience has certainly made them adults and has provided them with a life prospective that is broader then would have been achieved in another direction. Both are doing well and we have no regrets.
I'm not college educated (big shocker, I know). Just listening to my kids talk about the stuff they learn in school makes me feel like I Seriously missed out. They bring perspective to the dinner table that I never considered before.

My daughter had an English class in JC. When she got the syllabus, it made zero sense to both of us, the topics they wanted her to write/study about just didn't seem like they belonged in that class. It seemed they had nothing to do with English at all!!! At the end of the class, her and I both learned a ton, and my daughter became pretty close to the teacher. She told the teach, that it ended up being the most educational class she had ever attended.

The last day, the teacher told her class Why she taught that way, and there wasn't a dry eye in the house.

They don't have teachers like that in high school.
 

monkeyswrench

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I remember a few years back, some dude (on here) was talking about getting his junk waxed. I wonder if he ever went though with it!!! lol




I'm not college educated (big shocker, I know). Just listening to my kids talk about the stuff they learn in school makes me feel like I Seriously missed out. They bring perspective to the dinner table that I never considered before.

My daughter had an English class in JC. When she got the syllabus, it made zero sense to both of us, the topics they wanted her to write/study about just didn't seem like they belonged in that class. It seemed they had nothing to do with English at all!!! At the end of the class, her and I both learned a ton, and my daughter became pretty close to the teacher. She told the teach, that it ended up being the most educational class she had ever attended.

The last day, the teacher told her class Why she taught that way, and there wasn't a dry eye in the house.

They don't have teachers like that in high school.
I believe there are still teachers like that at all levels of teaching. The problem is, they are the exception, and not the rule. My daughter is in a physics class right now. The teacher is probably brilliant, but doesn't know how to convey her knowledge. She is a retired, career, scientist.
 

Flyinbowtie

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They learn stuff. She just told me it takes longer to become a cosmetologist, than it does it because a cop.

So I looked it up...

Basic training police academy: 600 to 800hrs

Cosmetology licence: 1600hrs

What do you say to that?? That definitely does not seem right.
Comparing apples to oranges here.

Graduate from Cosmotology school, you have the license to go to work and work anywhere you want right away.

Most cop shops these days require a degree, state cop shops have required a BS for decades.
I got that first worked full time drilling water wells, school part time plus working as a unpaid reserve after getting that cert through AS program then on to BS

So...then the academy you spoke of, most go through a Community college because few agencies can run their own academy these days.
Mine, dating myself here, was in 1980 and even back then it was 700 hours, 5 days a week 8 per day plus many evenings and several Saturdays plus homework for 3. months.
Started with 38, graduated 21.

Now...here is the deal...that academy certificate is NOT a LICENSE to be a cop. It is a certificate, with an expiration date, for you to get hired to start with a dept.

IF you get hired you go into an intensive FTO program, one on one training in a beat car with with an FTO, who documents your every move, for 6 more months.
So add another 1040 hours of one on one AFTER the academy 700, assuming a work year is 2080 hours.
STILL NO BASIC POST....
Then another 6 months of solo work, sometimes shadowed by a FTO, but always under the wing of the FTO Sgt.
Assuming you make the grade and remain employed continuously for 1 year, without a dismissal, you send that certificate from the Academy and a form from the dept. to POST to get your basic, first base BASIC POST CERTIFICATE, which is a license to be a cop in California.
So, 700 for the academy, and 2080 for the 1 year FTO probationary period, we get 2780 hours of training and service to get the license to be a cop.
And that is just the first certificate.
There are several more.

Academy can only do so much. The time in the car with the FTO is what makes the cop worth turning loose, and truly, it takes about 3 years or so to know enough to where the duty Sgt. isn't paying extra special attention to your call sign. Trust me. I know. Been there at every level, I was once the rookie, then the cop, then the FTO, then the Sgt, then the FTO sgt.
Anyone who has every carried that responsibility knows exactly what it means....shit rolls BOTH ways when you are the Sgt. Downhill from the brass, and you own everything your people do on the street...
 

stephenkatsea

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I am not a grammar Nazi. Written and verbal communication skills do have value. By no means does that value exceed years of on the job experience. But . . . . just simple things, such as not ending a sentence with a preposition are really easy. Such as, "Where do you live AT?" Just drop the last word in that sentence, the friggin "at". It is simply, "Where do you live?" Period, done, finished, question was properly asked, move on. Think about that for a while and you'll begin to sound like f'in Richard Burton. Believe he was a well spoken British actor, once married to Liz Taylor. Although, I'm not sure where he lived at. Just sayin'. Lol
 

Flyinbowtie

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I am not a grammar Nazi. Written and verbal communication skills do have value. By no means does that value exceed years of on the job experience. But . . . . just simple things, such as not ending a sentence with a preposition are really easy. Such as, "Where do you live AT?" Just drop the last word in that sentence, the friggin "at". It is simply, "Where do you live?" Period, done, finished, question was properly asked, move on. Think about that for a while and you'll begin to sound like f'in Richard Burton. Believe he was a well spoken British actor, once married to Liz Taylor. Although, I'm not sure where he lived at. Just sayin'. Lol

The schools have failed, at every level, to teach written communication skills. Every dept. I know of complains about this and had solutions in place like BoatCop described to deal with it. Contrary to the cool TV shows and movie hero stuff, real police work, making cases, takes a ton of writing. I was part of the state training managers association for a lot of years and we pulled out a lot hair working this problem.
One of our solutions was a written essay we had applicants fill out at HR while they waited for their Oral Board Appt. so we knew it was their work. We would rad them before they came in for the Oral Board. Many were very sad, and we had to fail a LOT of people at that point.
 

monkeyswrench

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The schools have failed, at every level, to teach written communication skills. Every dept. I know of complains about this and had solutions in place like BoatCop described to deal with it. Contrary to the cool TV shows and movie hero stuff, real police work, making cases, takes a ton of writing. I was part of the state training managers association for a lot of years and we pulled out a lot hair working this problem.
One of our solutions was a written essay we had applicants fill out at HR while they waited for their Oral Board Appt. so we knew it was their work. We would rad them before they came in for the Oral Board. Many were very sad, and we had to fail a LOT of people at that point.
You were there, in the field, do you remember roughly when it started? I am a bit curious, as I graduated high school in 95. A few of my friends went the LE route in life. I wouldn't say they were geniuses, but not slow either. Was it grammar, spelling...poor penmanship? What issues were you seeing? Anything in particular I should tell my kids to pay special attention to for future employment? LE, or anywhere for that matter.
 

brgrcru

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it only took me 6 hours to become a class A truck driver. lol
 

BoatCop

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My biggest beef with report writers is throwing cop jargon into the mix.

"I exited from the front driver's door of my fully marked Ford Expedition police vehicle, unit #401, and made contact with witness #1"

"I got out of the car and talked to John Doe."


"I observed suspect #1 speaking into a portable cellular communication device, held in his left hand."

"I saw John Smith talking on his phone"


K.I.S.S. You don't have to write a novel to get all pertinent information down on paper.
 

Flyinbowtie

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Monkeyswrench....

It was there when I got there and got worse through the 2000s at least. For LE it would be great if there was a class called "writing for communication" or something like that.
I dunno. Tell them to learn to read and write, effectively. Whatever classes will help with that. Also, learn a language. Agencies pay for bilingual skills. Also, reading for recreation helps to become a better writer IMHO.

LOL Boatcop.

My pet peeve too. Drove me batshit crazy. Worst I ever saw was the us of "dismounted" to describe getting out of the damn car.
One cure I found for jargon was to get a good DA I was friends with to play the role of defense attorney with the guy in a mock testimony deal, and let the guy get his ass handed to him. I don't know what it is with the jargon, I think people who can't write use it to excess.
Only takes one ass whipping by a good defense attorney on the stand to make a poor report writer look like a fool, and most prosecutors I worked with simply didn't file the cases for cops who didn't write a good report. I didn't sign off on crap reports, and made the writer fix the damn thing, so people who were crappy report writers naturally didn't sign up for my shift.
Which was fine with me.
 

monkeyswrench

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@Flyinbowtie , luckily, my kids read...a lot. My daughter has been writing application essays for service academy applications, and they seem to be well thought out. My boys are 13 and 14, and undecided on paths to take. My youngest likes the concept of Game&Fish/ Forestry... The 14yo is more into technology and mechanics... building or designing @LowRiver2 's kind of "toys". I was taught what you write is basically how you sound, but on record...so if you write stupidly, you'll always be thought of that way.
 

rivermobster

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@Flyinbowtie

Jeff, I'm not sure how to say this, as I've said it to your face before, so I'll just say it straight...

YOU are one AWESOME writer. Want proof? I was talking to a guy on this board a few days ago (face to face), the tale of you and me talking about Nevada came up, and he says to me...

Is that the guy that writes all the awesome stories on the board? I don't read many peoples posts, but I always make time to read his.

And if you still don't get it...

I feel sorry for anyone that had to have you as a proof reader. Maybe Steven King or Tom Clancy could pass muster, but no mere mortal can live up to your writing skilz!!! lol

Now my point of making this thread Still is (and backed up by both you and boatcop with examples), is that the LEO's today Should have a 4 year degree going in. Not just an AA, from a JC. A full fledged real degree. It makes for a far more rounded human in so many ways.

I'm gonna guess every person on here that has one, would agree.
 

BoatCop

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Monkeyswrench....

It was there when I got there and got worse through the 2000s at least. For LE it would be great if there was a class called "writing for communication" or something like that.
I dunno. Tell them to learn to read and write, effectively. Whatever classes will help with that. Also, learn a language. Agencies pay for bilingual skills. Also, reading for recreation helps to become a better writer IMHO.

LOL Boatcop.

My pet peeve too. Drove me batshit crazy. Worst I ever saw was the us of "dismounted" to describe getting out of the damn car.
One cure I found for jargon was to get a good DA I was friends with to play the role of defense attorney with the guy in a mock testimony deal, and let the guy get his ass handed to him. I don't know what it is with the jargon, I think people who can't write use it to excess.
Only takes one ass whipping by a good defense attorney on the stand to make a poor report writer look like a fool, and most prosecutors I worked with simply didn't file the cases for cops who didn't write a good report. I didn't sign off on crap reports, and made the writer fix the damn thing, so people who were crappy report writers naturally didn't sign up for my shift.
Which was fine with me.
It's the same phenomenon with people of low intelligence and poor communication skills trying to use big words (incorrectly) to make themselves appear smarter. Watch some daytime TV to see what I'm talking about. "Conversating" is one of my favorites. "Gifted" (when used to describe someone giving something, rather than a person with natural talents) is another one. But unfortunately, those words will become accepted and make it into dictionaries, thereby dumbing down the populace. Remember getting corrected for using the word "ain't"?

I remember my daughter in high school and her taking English and writing classes. She was dyslexic and I reviewed all her work to check for errors. I'd point out misspelled words, and she'd argue with me saying that they didn't deduct for misspelled words. I called her bluff on it, and sure enough. She brought home a 100% A+ assignment with half the words misspelled. Shit, I remember whn I was in school, it didn't matter if it was English, Government, Civics, Math word problems, Home Ec or Photography. If something was spelled wrong, you got hammered for it. I used to help my folks in their Office Supply business at Graduation time, taking orders for Graduation announcements. Most of the kids (not to mention parents) coming in had to have interpreters, as they couldn't communicate in English, or I'd have to read the info to them, since they couldn't read. And these are people GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL. I asked the school administrators at a Board meeting once, why there were kids being advanced in elementary grades when they couldn't read or write. With a straight face they told me: "They don't fit in the desks anymore."

No wonder we're a society of useless participation trophy idiots these days.
 

monkeyswrench

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Odd, thinking of reading and writing this way. It was drilled into my head by my parents. Niether had any "higher education". In fact, Pops didn't get his GED until he was about 50. Growing up, I didn't see why. As I became older, and on my own, I figured it out. Pops couldn't read or write very well...at all. Mom could read and write, but couldn't help me with math past basic algebra. I think I was pushed due to fear of being "below average". Now, as a parent, I push my kids. Not to be "above average", but better than myself...History repeats itself.

I think now the parents rely on spell checks and auto-text. Everyone is used to that, so they don't see a need to retain the lessons taught...if they are still teaching these things.
 
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