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Surge brakes

Cgrohe223

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Was going to post in the lounge but so much has changed on here since the last time so I’m assuming to post here haha... I’m having issues with my surge brakes when hitting the brakes on the truck they slam on and off rapidly until I come to a complete stop. I put all new brakes assemblies on the trailer when I got it never had issues until I bought this 2018 Ram 2500, I bought one of those weigh safe adjustable drop hitches so I figure maybe due to its length and movement that was affecting it. Bought the little unbolt style anti rattle chingus thinking that may fix it... nope but did help while driving down the highway with bumps in the road. Tried bleeding the brakes, no luck... pulled the whole ufp a-60 brake actuator out replaced rollers wear pad and shock absorber threw some grease where it slides on... still having the issue. Also adjust the drop hitch up one hole thinking maybe the trailer didn’t want to be towed at a straight level... still slamming. Now I taped a nut where the actuator slides to stop them from engaging all together for right now. I’m only pulling a 21 ft vector so I can still stop but still would like my trailer brakes, if anyone may know the issue it would be greatly appreciated.
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spectra3279

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Was going to post in the lounge but so much has changed on here since the last time so I’m assuming to post here haha... I’m having issues with my surge brakes when hitting the brakes on the truck they slam on and off rapidly until I come to a complete stop. I put all new brakes assemblies on the trailer when I got it never had issues until I bought this 2018 Ram 2500, I bought one of those weigh safe adjustable drop hitches so I figure maybe due to its length and movement that was affecting it. Bought the little unbolt style anti rattle chingus thinking that may fix it... nope but did help while driving down the highway with bumps in the road. Tried bleeding the brakes, no luck... pulled the whole ufp a-60 brake actuator out replaced rollers wear pad and shock absorber threw some grease where it slides on... still having the issue. Also adjust the drop hitch up one hole thinking maybe the trailer didn’t want to be towed at a straight level... still slamming. Now I taped a nut where the actuator slides to stop them from engaging all together for right now. I’m only pulling a 21 ft vector so I can still stop but still would like my trailer brakes, if anyone may know the issue it would be greatly appreciated. View attachment 986105


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Did you replace the orifice? That would be my first guess

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Cgrohe223

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Did you replace the orifice? That would be my first guess

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This thing? No but I was reading some things on those as well. They slow down the flow of brake fluid so they don’t come on so abruptly or something along those lines.
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wishiknew

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This thing? No but I was reading some things on those as well. They slow down the flow of brake fluid so they don’t come on so abruptly or something along those lines. View attachment 986147


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I dont know anything about surge brakes but they shouldnt be locking up like that definetly something wrong also nice looking boat
 

Cgrohe223

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Thank you all original gel and interior 1990
Just your normal old drum brakes, they don’t lock up and make the tires skid but when it brakes it brakes hard pulls the trailer back which disengage and since I’m still coming to a stop at a light or traffic the cycle continues till I either stop or let off the brakes. I found an article on google says his brakes are machine gunning but they never came back to post on what they found out. He even put a whole new ufp actuator in and still had the issue


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UltraLucky

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Nice Vector,
Are they Disk brakes with reverse solenoid lockout? If so check the wiring harness from the truck to the trailer. May be the wiring is different on the truck(Truck is the only thing that changed). Brake lights may be activating reverse solenoid and fighting the surge brakes. I had to rewire my trailer pigtail connector to work correctly when converted over to disk brakes.
 

Cgrohe223

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Nice Vector,
Are they Disk brakes with reverse solenoid lockout? If so check the wiring harness from the truck to the trailer. May be the wiring is different on the truck(Truck is the only thing that changed). Brake lights may be activating reverse solenoid and fighting the surge brakes. I had to rewire my trailer pigtail connector to work correctly when converted over to disk brakes.
Thank you! But they’re just drums and on the last few boats I’ve put the drum kits on that don’t engage in reverse. I did check for reverse lock out when I pulled the whole assembly out and it doesn’t have one, what I was thinking about trying is hooking the boat up to my brothers truck and seeing if it does the same thing or just running to arrow trailer and seeing if they have that little brass fitting that slows the flow down.


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spectra3279

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This thing? No but I was reading some things on those as well. They slow down the flow of brake fluid so they don’t come on so abruptly or something along those lines. View attachment 986147


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Yes. They can cause the on and off again. Specially if it's missing

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spectra3279

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Thank you! But they’re just drums and on the last few boats I’ve put the drum kits on that don’t engage in reverse. I did check for reverse lock out when I pulled the whole assembly out and it doesn’t have one, what I was thinking about trying is hooking the boat up to my brothers truck and seeing if it does the same thing or just running to arrow trailer and seeing if they have that little brass fitting that slows the flow down.


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Make sure it's the one for drum brakes. They are different for disk.

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Cgrohe223

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Make sure it's the one for drum brakes. They are different for disk.

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IMG_2862.jpg

It is there I can see it from this picture just never looked to see if it may be damaged


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spectra3279

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Also, does your trailer set level when it's hooked up?

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JUSTWANNARACE

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View attachment 986153
It is there I can see it from this picture just never looked to see if it may be damaged


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That looks like the same set up as my competitive trailer. And mine reacts different brake wise from our K5 to my duramax. And I think it's because, without really noticing the newer rig stops way faster therefore putting more pressure on the surge brakes than the K5. I pulled some tention off the shoes to the drum "spring actuator" and it went away on the duramax but doesnt slow as quickly now on the K5🤷🏻‍♂️
 

rivermobster

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That master cylinder looks nasty!

If it was me, I'd pull Everything apart and go from there. For sure replace that master, and probably everything else while your at it.

Most trailer shops sell the backing plates with all the springs, wheel cylinders and shoes installed.

If I had to guess, your drums are gonna be all heat checked as well, and will need to be replaced also.

I did this on my trailer when I got my boat. My boat and trailer are from 97. It was hardly worth trying to diagnose something that old. It was easier to just start from scratch. I replaced all the brake lines, bearings and seals as well.

You'll be done one weekend. Easy easy.
 

Cgrohe223

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That master cylinder looks nasty!

If it was me, I'd pull Everything apart and go from there. For sure replace that master, and probably everything else while your at it.

Most trailer shops sell the backing plates with all the springs, wheel cylinders and shoes installed.

If I had to guess, your drums are gonna be all heat checked as well, and will need to be replaced also.

I did this on my trailer when I got my boat. My boat and trailer are from 97. It was hardly worth trying to diagnose something that old. It was easier to just start from scratch. I replaced all the brake lines, bearings and seals as well.

You'll be done one weekend. Easy easy.
I bought brand new brake assemblies n all that but at the end of last season it acted up


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Cgrohe223

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Replace that master, bleed the brakes and adjust properly. See what you get at that point.
Ya idk if the master cylinder looks so bad cause the tip of the trailer sticks out of the carport and it rusted or what but ya probably just do that depending on price cause I may just buy the whole new assembly then


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Cgrohe223

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48$ for the new master cylinder so I will let you guys know if it works once it is shipped and installed.


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shunter2005

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Slamming on and off or possibly surging very hard like they are hard chattering back and forth? Probably not part of your problem, but it might not hurt to check while you are at it. Did you buy new drums or just new backing plate assemblies? If not, have you checked the drums for out of round? Might take them down to your local auto parts and have them turned. If they are way out from being dipped when hot, it could be part of the problem. If they are way out and can't be turned, new drums are not that expensive. Just my thought.

Indeed, rebuilding the actuator certainly won't hurt either. What does your master cylinder look like on the inside? When you empty it can you see the bottom or is there a lot of gooey crap on the bottom. Just wondering. I found one that was all gooey with about an inch of gunk on the bottom. Disclaimer** It was that way when I got it. I replaced the master cylinder and all was good.
 

outboard_256

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post a pic of it hooked up to your truck. I am wondering if the angle is wrong or if the drop trailer hitch is flexing and causing this.
 

Cgrohe223

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Slamming on and off or possibly surging very hard like they are hard chattering back and forth? Probably not part of your problem, but it might not hurt to check while you are at it. Did you buy new drums or just new backing plate assemblies? If not, have you checked the drums for out of round? Might take them down to your local auto parts and have them turned. If they are way out from being dipped when hot, it could be part of the problem. If they are way out and can't be turned, new drums are not that expensive. Just my thought.

Indeed, rebuilding the actuator certainly won't hurt either. What does your master cylinder look like on the inside? When you empty it can you see the bottom or is there a lot of gooey crap on the bottom. Just wondering. I found one that was all gooey with about an inch of gunk on the bottom. Disclaimer** It was that way when I got it. I replaced the master cylinder and all was good.
It was just the backing assemblies and that was over a year ago and they worked fine, I really don’t think even if the drum was warped it would cause them to slam on and off so hard and it does it at all speeds it’s weird, but no it was clean I flushed all old fluid when I replaced the assemblies. Once I put the master cylinder in this weekend everything will be new besides drums. I’m tempted if for some reason it still does it to have my brother hook his truck up and see what it does with his


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Cgrohe223

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post a pic of it hooked up to your truck. I am wondering if the angle is wrong or if the drop trailer hitch is flexing and causing this.
It’s perfectly level, then I tried it higher and another time lower and still did the same thing.
IMG_1553.jpg



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96motorhead

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My initial thought would be the shock absorber that dampens the master cylinder is not working correctly. I dont think a warped drum would cause the brakes to slam on and off, it would be more of a shutter. What did the wheel bearing grease in the braking and non braking hubs look like?
 

Cgrohe223

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My initial thought would be the shock absorber that dampens the master cylinder is not working correctly. I dont think a warped drum would cause the brakes to slam on and off, it would be more of a shutter. What did the wheel bearing grease in the braking and non braking hubs look like?
That’s what I thought as well so I replaced it even though the old one felt fine and still did it. Wheel bearing grease looked fairly fresh, the front axle hubs never came off.


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shunter2005

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That’s what I thought as well so I replaced it even though the old one felt fine and still did it. Wheel bearing grease looked fairly fresh, the front axle hubs never came off.


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So, just to be clear. Are you saying that your actuator slams back and forth while you are driving forward with no pressure on the actuator, say on a straight flat road? Looks like a UFP A-60. Is that correct? What happened to the pushrod assembly? Did you take it off or Is it missing?
 

Cgrohe223

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So, just to be clear. Are you saying that your actuator slams back and forth while you are driving forward with no pressure on the actuator, say on a straight flat road? Looks like a UFP A-60. Is that correct? What happened to the pushrod assembly? Did you take it off or Is it missing?
No when I stop and the brakes brakes engage that’s when they slam on and off if I’m just driving it’s fine


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spectra3279

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Get a new orifice. They are only about 10 bucks. I had to do that on mine

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Icky

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So, just to be clear. Are you saying that your actuator slams back and forth while you are driving forward with no pressure on the actuator, say on a straight flat road? Looks like a UFP A-60. Is that correct? What happened to the pushrod assembly? Did you take it off or Is it missing?
I was thinking the pushrod too, I have all the parts to do mine this weekend and noticed they gave me the wrong pushrod, my fault I didn't tell them I had dual axle disc brakes.
 

Icky

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From the pacific trailers website.
Screenshot_20210409-194627_DuckDuckGo.jpg
 

shunter2005

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So, did the new master cylinder help you or not?
 
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Shrub Lurker

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How is the tongue weight? If you are light in the front this will cause your symptoms.
 

Cgrohe223

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Installed the new master cylinder that came with the drum brake orifice and no luck still doing it, has to be the drop hitch slop that’s effecting it.


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mesquito_creek

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has to be the drop hitch slop that’s effecting it.
If you finally get tired of throwing good money into bad... Go with an electric over hydraulic kit. That way you keep everything you have replaced except the sliding tongue components. I finally gave up on hydraulic brakes and went that route and I am very happy. Assuming your truck already has all the built in electric brake controller stuff, otherwise, never mind...
 

Icky

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Is there no reverse bypass solenoid on that master?
 

Icky

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What pushrod assembly got put in there
 

Cgrohe223

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Is there no reverse bypass solenoid on that master?
Nope brake line connects directly to it, but no clue been working fine till this truck that’s why I’m really thinking it has to do with the drop hitch slop. I’m going to try to fab something new up to hold it down and try again I guess haha


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Cgrohe223

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If you finally get tired of throwing good money into bad... Go with an electric over hydraulic kit. That way you keep everything you have replaced except the sliding tongue components. I finally gave up on hydraulic brakes and went that route and I am very happy. Assuming your truck already has all the built in electric brake controller stuff, otherwise, never mind...
The truck does have all trailer brake stuff but I’m going to try one more thing before I decide to drop that kinda money for trailer brakes.


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Icky

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So about the time you started this thread I had brought my boat home to service it. The brakes haven't worked since I bought it in 2014, and never bothered me before. I had to slam on the brakes while towing with my 18month old in the truck and that's all it took for me to want to fix them.

I started out with the master cylinder, shock and pushrod assembly. I ended up purchasing the wrong pushrod assembly from pacific trailers for my dual axle disc brake setup, but they exchanged it for the correct one. Swapped all that out as it was corroded beyond what I felt like dealing with.

Went to go bleed the brakes and noticed the brake line was broken at one wheel. Off to G&j to have new lines made for all 4 wheels. Replaced the lines and still couldn't get fluid. The original line I left in had a blockage, got that cleared with my vacuum bleeder. The flex lines from the tees to the axles were also corroded, bought new lines at pacific trailers.

Once I got fluid to all my wheels, I couldn't get fluid into the brake calipers, they were also corroded. So off again to pacific trailers to buy new ones. I wasn't able to use my vacuum bleeder to bleed the brakes, we had to manually pump it from underneath with a screw driver.

I always thought surge brakes sucked, but after towing last weekend with a properly working set I have a change of heart. I didn't have any of the issues you're describing.

I would call up pacific trailers (in chino) or another trailer place and see of they have a better idea.
 

Cgrohe223

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So about the time you started this thread I had brought my boat home to service it. The brakes haven't worked since I bought it in 2014, and never bothered me before. I had to slam on the brakes while towing with my 18month old in the truck and that's all it took for me to want to fix them.

I started out with the master cylinder, shock and pushrod assembly. I ended up purchasing the wrong pushrod assembly from pacific trailers for my dual axle disc brake setup, but they exchanged it for the correct one. Swapped all that out as it was corroded beyond what I felt like dealing with.

Went to go bleed the brakes and noticed the brake line was broken at one wheel. Off to G&j to have new lines made for all 4 wheels. Replaced the lines and still couldn't get fluid. The original line I left in had a blockage, got that cleared with my vacuum bleeder. The flex lines from the tees to the axles were also corroded, bought new lines at pacific trailers.

Once I got fluid to all my wheels, I couldn't get fluid into the brake calipers, they were also corroded. So off again to pacific trailers to buy new ones. I wasn't able to use my vacuum bleeder to bleed the brakes, we had to manually pump it from underneath with a screw driver.

I always thought surge brakes sucked, but after towing last weekend with a properly working set I have a change of heart. I didn't have any of the issues you're describing.

I would call up pacific trailers (in chino) or another trailer place and see of they have a better idea.
Mine do work when i have to slam on the brakes it’s only when light braking they start to bump on and off constantly it’s weird. I may pull the brake lines at the rear blow them out again and then bleed them and try something new with the hitch. I give pacific a call and see if they have had any similar situations, that’s who I have been getting parts from, besides the new backings with wheel cylinders and pads.


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mesquito_creek

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Mine do work when i have to slam on the brakes it’s only when light braking they start to bump on and off constantly it’s weird. I may pull the brake lines at the rear blow them out again and then bleed them and try something new with the hitch. I give pacific a call and see if they have had any similar situations, that’s who I have been getting parts from, besides the new backings with wheel cylinders and pads.


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I called uncle when I went through the whole hydrologic system and on the first trip one brake locked up and started the tire/wheel on fire... obviously I missed something. Took 2 full fire extinguishers to put it out. But I am not discouraging you, once you figure it out it can be a really simple and reliable system.
 

Cgrohe223

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I called uncle when I went through the whole hydrologic system and on the first trip one brake locked up and started the tire/wheel on fire... obviously I missed something. Took 2 full fire extinguishers to put it out. But I am not discouraging you, once you figure it out it can be a really simple and reliable system.
Had that happen on a old set of drums over extended the rod coming out of the wheel cylinder for the hub hot and puked grease down the side of the boat. It is a pretty simple set up I’ve done three different trailers but never had this issue before. I’ll figure it out one day, I was reading on a different site a guy had the same issue had the whole system redone and it still did it.


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