The breathalyzer...what you should know

[Wicky]

My fiance owns an FDA drug testing clinical trial company and it is madatory to do breathalyzer testing on every studied patient in clinical trials due to drug interactions that she prescribes.
I have learned a lot about the breathalyzer by tests that we have done on our own. Her machine is calibrated and regulated by the FDA. Much stricter than the local cop shop. On bad reading with one dose of a new experimental drug and a patient could die. With this scrutinization, my 7 year old son blew a .03% BAC. after I blew "hot" with alcohol in my mouth 10 minutes prior. He blew before I blew "hot" and blew a .00 for those of you who want to make a wise crack and are doubting thomases.
Wicky

Here is some more info on the breathalyzer according to Lawrence Taylor



The “Mouth Alcohol” Problem
Posted by Lawrence Taylor on March 30th, 2005

One of the most common causes of falsely high breathalyzer readings is the existence of mouth alcohol.

The breathalyzer’s internal computer is making a major assumption when it captures a breath sample and then analyzes it for blood alcohol concentration (BAC): It assumes that the alcohol in the breath sample came from alveolar air — that is, air exhaled from deep within the lungs. Since we are trying to measure how much alcohol is in the blood, rather than in the breath, the computer applies a formula to translate the results. This formula is based upon the average ratio of alcohol in the breath to alcohol in the blood. This so-called partition ratio is 1 to 2100 — that is, in the average person there will be 2100 units of alcohol in the blood for every unit measured by the breathalyzer in the breath. Put simply, the machine’s computer multiplies the amount of alcohol detected in the suspect’s breath sample by 2100 and reports that as the blood alcohol level.

But what if the alcohol in the sample is not from the lungs?

Too bad: the machine doesn’t know any better. If there is even a miniscule amount of alcohol in the DUI suspect’s mouth or throat, it will be tremendously magnified by the breathalyzer and it will report a much higher BAC than the true one.

Alcohol can be found in the mouth for a number of reasons. The most obvious is that the individual has recently consumed some alcohol; it usually takes 15-20 minutes for the alcohol to dissipate through the rinsing action of saliva. Or he/she may have recently used mouthwash or breath freshener (most contain fairly high levels of alcohol) — possibly to disguise the smell of alcohol when being pulled over by police. See my earlier post, Breath Fresheners and Breathalyzers.

The most common source of mouth alcohol is from eructation (burping or belching). This causes the liquids and/or gases from the stomach — including alcohol if it is there — to rise up into the soft tissue of the esophegus and mouth, where it will stay until it has dissipated. For this reason, police officers are required to keep a DUI suspect under observation for at least 15 minutes prior to administering a breath (in reality, however, many if not most officers are unwilling to stand around watching a suspect for a quarter of an hour).

Acid reflux can greatly exacerbate this problem. As was discussed in a previous post, GERD, Acid Reflux and False Breathlayzer Results, the stomach is normally separated from the throat by a valve. When this valve becomes herniated, there is nothing to stop the liquid contents in the stomach from rising and permeating the esophegus and mouth. The contents — including any alcohol — is then later breathed into the breathalyzer. Since it has not yet been absorbed through the stomach wall and into the blood and eventually into the lungs, this alcohol should not be read as breath from the lungs and multiplied by 2100. Of course, the breathalyzer doesn’t know this. See the article by Kechagias, et al., “Reliability of Breath-Alcohol Analysis in Individuals with Gastroesophogeal Reflux Disease”, 44(4) Journal of Forensic Sciences 814 (1999).

The mouth alcohol problem can also be created in other ways. Dentures, for example, will trap alcohol for much longer than 15-20 minutes. Periodental disease can also create pockets in the gums which will contain the alcohol for longer periods. And so on…. As the American Medical Association’s Committee on Medical Problems concluded in its Manual for Chemical Tests for Intoxication (1959):

 

[snake321]

The Intoxilizer 5000 accuracy was a few years ago advertised (I can't remember)in the high 80's or low 90's percent. This rating was in house and I couldn't find any independant surveys as to these figures. About 5 years ago I did a presentation in a speechmaking class where everyone took the sobriety tests,except the eye test which is totally useless,and 3 people advanced to the breathalizer part. The point was that these 3 could soberly fail the walking,talking ,finger pointing,alphabet tricks and proceed to the non positive breath test and the odds are that someone could lose.

 

[sorry dog]

Add this that one of the major manufacturers under the name Drager recent had the computer code subpoenaed, and after much foot dragging the code was produced. Several programmers gave the opinion that the code fell way below normal programming standards and when on to mention the liberty in assumptions made...

I'm sure it's something you can google up if you want to know more.

 

[socalmoney]

The Intoxilizer 5000 accuracy was a few years ago advertised (I can't remember)in the high 80's or low 90's percent. This rating was in house and I couldn't find any independant surveys as to these figures. About 5 years ago I did a presentation in a speechmaking class where everyone took the sobriety tests,except the eye test which is totally useless,and 3 people advanced to the breathalizer part. The point was that these 3 could soberly fail the walking,talking ,finger pointing,alphabet tricks and proceed to the non positive breath test and the odds are that someone could lose.

How did your "speech making" class train you to look for signs of intoxication based on FSTs.

Tell me how the "eye test is totally useless". I suppose it would be on sober subjects.

 

[Wicky]

How did your "speech making" class train you to look for signs of intoxication based on FSTs.

Tell me how the "eye test is totally useless". I suppose it would be on sober subjects.

We can't tell you...you are always right!!! That's what propaganda was meant to achieve.:hmm

 

[RiverDave]

Well I don't believe in alot of shit.. Primarily the Breathylizer (that thing is like a slot machine! Blow in it 3 times, get 3 different results!) I think the FST's are bullshit as well save the eye test...

The eye test doesn't lie.. If your drinking and your eyes are gonna bounce, I don't care how good of an alchy you are.. LOL For those that don't know it's not about "seeing the pen" it's about what your eyes are doing while your seeing the pen.

RD

 

[Harley5229]

I posted this on PB but thought I'd place it here as well...

I work with breathalyzers all the time. Yes, if you use mouthwash and then take a reading it can come up showing a reading of greater than .000. BUT most companies/organizations that use these machines have a policy that if someone claims to have used mouthwash they can rinse their mouth out with water and immediately try again. 99% of the time it then gives a reading of
.000 because it's rinsed the substance containing alcohol out of the mouth. It does not take 15-20 minutes to rinse out - that is false. I do this on a daily basis and it's an immediate effect with rinsing.

As far as medical conditions it's extremely rare that any condition will give a BAC reading greater then the legal limit to drive (.08 in most states), so even if it comes up with something it's not enough to arrest someone.

And if your wife works in clinical trials then if they are that concerned about people with alcohol in their system and taking meds, they should be doing urine or hair folicle testing for more acurate results. BAC are not meant to be the be-all-end-all to determine one's state of intoxication. That is why when someone does give a BAC over the legal limit to drive they are taken into custody and more conclusive test is done at the jail.

I also would like to point out the dates on the references given are outdated as well...things change quikly in this field...

My two cents...

 

[Harley5229]

Well I don't believe in alot of shit.. Primarily the Breathylizer (that thing is like a slot machine! Blow in it 3 times, get 3 different results!)

RD

Just wondering how often do you get to blow into a breathalyzer???

 

[BoatCop]

The certified instruments (We use the Federal 8000, but the 5000 does the same thing) give an "air blank" before and after each subject test. Then it tests itself to make sure it is .000 before the subject blows. If it reads ANY alcohol after the "air blank" it invalidates the entire test. I have yet to see the instrument do this, in thousands of cycles. The results of the air balnk are printed out on the same report that the subject tests are.

In order for a test to be valid, we have to observe the subject for a minimum of 20 minutes before the test. This ensures that any mouth alcohol has disapated prior to testing. And there has to be 2 tests, taken a minimum of 5 minutes apart. (with 2 air blanks in between) The tests have to be within .02% of each other for the test to be vaild.

The instruments also need to be tested and calibrated with a known alcohol solution at least every 30 days. The tests are done by Certified Quality Assurance personnel. These tests are recorded and results kept with the instrument. The test/calibration records are made available to Defense Attorneys if requested.

If you do not have alcohol in your system, a properly operating and maintained intoxylizer and operated by a qualified person, WILL NOT record that you do.

You can question whether the person was qualified. You can question whether the Intoxylizer was maintained properly. And you can try to question the accuracy of the intoxylizer.

But if the first 2 are satisfied, you're out of luck on the third.

 

[socalmoney]

I find that people who hate cops, often do because they they get in the way of their criminal lifestyle.

 

[snake321]

How did your "speech making" class train you to look for signs of intoxication based on FSTs.

Tell me how the "eye test is totally useless". I suppose it would be on sober subjects.

My class didn't train me,I made a presentation. There are other things that can cause the eye jerk and police not being eye doctors are NOT qualified to make a diagnosis. A police training class doesn't make an expert witness, if it did I'd take one and open an eyeglass shop. People with good perriferal(sp?)vision can see the pen over to the side and an officer keeps going further until he produces a reaction to an unnatural vision act.
Heel to toe has a direct reflection on the shoes you wear. The sneaker guy has it all over the cowboy boot guy and girls in heels have it worst.
1 footed balance - people don't normally stand one 1 foot on the side of the road with traffic and flashlights and balance for a 20 count. I have seen a state police officer under oath, durring trial,demonstrate this and lose his balance. The jury tried this on their own in chambers and some failed.
Recite the alphabet from some given place in the middle when everyone learned it as a rhyme from the beginning.Of course you can do it,but not always on the side of the road.
Tricks, all unnatural tricks..

 

[Wicky]

In order for a test to be valid, we have to observe the subject for a minimum of 20 minutes before the test. This ensures that any mouth alcohol has disapated prior to testing. And there has to be 2 tests, taken a minimum of 5 minutes apart. (with 2 air blanks in between) The tests have to be within .02% of each other for the test to be vaild.

20 minutes will also allow the alcohol to metabolize thus giving a higher reading!!

 

[kilrtoy]

You have now become an annoyance......
So your read it on the internet and now it is fact....
Just go away.
Breathe test are taking from the air in the mouth, Now that is a new one...

 

[BoatCop]

The "Eye Test" is called Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus". It looks for a phenomenom where the eye "jerks" involuntarily when the subject has alcohol in their system.

There are 3 components to the the HGN test.

1. Onset of Nystagmus (jerking) prior 45 degrees
2. Distinct Nystagmus at maximum deviation.
3. Vertical Nystagmus

There are some medical or eye conditions that will cause nystagmus, absent any alcohol. But they usually manifest themselves with the eye in a normal resting position, and is obvious prior to testing.

Defense Attorneys make billions of dollars every year from drunk drivers. A whole lot more than the Government could ever think of bringing in from fines or penalties. An average DUI will bring in between $1,500-$3,000 in fines. Out of this, take the cost of the officer's pay. Court time. Judge's pay, prosecutor pay, Court clerk's pay. Court reporter's pay. Lab technician (if blood was taken) Test equipment, etc.

It will cost around $10,000 for a defense attorney to take a case to trial. More, if they hire an "Expert Witness" ($1-3,000 an hour, minumum).

This is a whole lot of trouble, time and expense. Especially when the alternative is so much cheaper and easier.

DON"T DRINK AND DRIVE!

 

[wolfie]

Just wondering how often do you get to blow into a breathalyzer???

He doesn't blow into anything, haven't you read - RD SUX!!!!

 

[BoatCop]

20 minutes will also allow the alcohol to metabolize thus giving a higher reading!!

Or metabolize to a lower level. It depends on when they took their last drink.

And by the way....

Alcohol is absorbed to a higher level, and metabolizes to a lower level.

 

[snake321]

The "Eye Test" is called Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus". It looks for a phenomenom where the eye "jerks" involuntarily when the subject has alcohol in their system.

There are 3 components to the the HGN test.

1. Onset of Nystagmus (jerking) prior 45 degrees
2. Distinct Nystagmus at maximum deviation.
3. Vertical Nystagmus

There are some medical or eye conditions that will cause nystagmus, absent any alcohol. But they usually manifest themselves with the eye in a normal resting position, and is obvious prior to testing.


Now with all this factual information and the assumed training classes, can you be called as an expert witness as to involuntary eye reactions?

 

[Topless]

20 minutes will also allow the alcohol to metabolize thus giving a higher reading!!

Did you get a DUI or something?:hmm

 

[BoatCop]

"Now with all this factual information and the assumed training classes, can you be called as an expert witness as to involuntary eye reactions?"

As a Certified HGN Technician I can be called to testify on my observations regarding the subject that I conducted the HGN evaluation on.

A DUI prosecution relies not on a single observation, but the totality of the evidence and observations. Any one of the observations is not sufficient to prove a DUI. You have to take into account:

1. Poor Driving pattern. (Initial reasonable suspicion/probable Cause)
2. Subject appearance
3. Poor performance on FSTs (including HGN)
4. Chemical Testing (Blood, breath or urine test) indicatiing elavated alcohol concentration.

Any one of the above, in and of itself, does not give rise to a DUI charge. But when all of them are put together, there is substantial probable cause to arrest and charge the individual with DUI.

 

[Wicky]

I posted this on PB but thought I'd place it here as well...

I work with breathalyzers all the time. Yes, if you use mouthwash and then take a reading it can come up showing a reading of greater than .000. BUT most companies/organizations that use these machines have a policy that if someone claims to have used mouthwash they can rinse their mouth out with water and immediately try again. 99% of the time it then gives a reading of
.000 because it's rinsed the substance containing alcohol out of the mouth. It does not take 15-20 minutes to rinse out - that is false. I do this on a daily basis and it's an immediate effect with rinsing.

As far as medical conditions it's extremely rare that any condition will give a BAC reading greater then the legal limit to drive (.08 in most states), so even if it comes up with something it's not enough to arrest someone.

And if your wife works in clinical trials then if they are that concerned about people with alcohol in their system and taking meds, they should be doing urine or hair folicle testing for more acurate results. BAC are not meant to be the be-all-end-all to determine one's state of intoxication. That is why when someone does give a BAC over the legal limit to drive they are taken into custody and more conclusive test is done at the jail.

I also would like to point out the dates on the references given are outdated as well...things change quikly in this field...

My two cents...

My two cents..:hmm....I'd say he has a vested interest just like I said on the other board

 

[socalmoney]

My class didn't train me,I made a presentation. There are other things that can cause the eye jerk and police not being eye doctors are NOT qualified to make a diagnosis. A police training class doesn't make an expert witness, if it did I'd take one and open an eyeglass shop. People with good perriferal(sp?)vision can see the pen over to the side and an officer keeps going further until he produces a reaction to an unnatural vision act.
Heel to toe has a direct reflection on the shoes you wear. The sneaker guy has it all over the cowboy boot guy and girls in heels have it worst.
1 footed balance - people don't normally stand one 1 foot on the side of the road with traffic and flashlights and balance for a 20 count. I have seen a state police officer under oath, durring trial,demonstrate this and lose his balance. The jury tried this on their own in chambers and some failed.
Recite the alphabet from some given place in the middle when everyone learned it as a rhyme from the beginning.Of course you can do it,but not always on the side of the road.
Tricks, all unnatural tricks..

You almost got me. I see that you are just kidding around. I almost believed that you were that stupid. Kudos to you. I love your sense of humor.

 

[Wicky]

Did you get a DUI or something?:hmm

Haven't even had a traffic ticket in over 15 years...just don't like the idea of .08 bac forced on each state. If the state didn't comply with .08, all federal highway funding would be cut. It was all about the money for most. The majority of all fatalities involving a drunk driver are well over .15. I feel .10 is a very fair BAC to be put away. It wasn't a money maker though. This is just my opinion....more butter please!!!
I have much respect for boatcop and 99% of all other LE. Alan calls it as he sees it and I believe uses his own judgement and uses it very well unlike most LE out there.
I just have a hard time respecting laws that were designed to run off of emotion, skewed statistics, and ultimately to generate revenue.

 

[Wicky]

He doesn't blow into anything, haven't you read - RD SUX!!!!

Now that was fucking funny!!

 

[SBjet]

You have now become an annoyance......
So your read it on the internet and now it is fact....
Just go away.
Breathe test are taking from the air in the mouth, Now that is a new one...

Yes, breath tests test air coming out the mouth and make assumptions about alcohol in the blood, which are usually valid.

 

[Harley5229]

Small correction - I am a she...it's OK, I'll forgive you.

Second, my interest lies with the recovery of the vets who come to see me in the addicitons treatment center I work at.

Just want to make sure people understand how breathalyzers work. But BoatCop did an excelent job explaining it!

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Haven't even had a traffic ticket in over 15 years...just don't like the idea of .08 bac forced on each state. If the state didn't comply with .08, all federal highway funding would be cut. It was all about the money for most. The majority of all fatalities involving a drunk driver are well over .15. I feel .10 is a very fair BAC to be put away. It wasn't a money maker though. This is just my opinion....more butter please!!!
I have much respect for boatcop and 99% of all other LE. Alan calls it as he sees it and I believe uses his own judgement and uses it very well unlike most LE out there.
I just have a hard time respecting laws that were designed to run off of emotion, skewed statistics, and ultimately to generate revenue.

Wicky,

A trained, educated, and skilled peace officer does use his judgement every day. I too believe Alan uses his well, and I believe most do. I spent 25 years in the profession, and it was my experience that most do. The days of ill-educated people in this profession are numbered. We suffer every time a bad cop screws up, we suffer every time a good cop makes a bad call. I ran the Field Training Program for my dept. for many years, and I am thankful I was able to weed a few out, and train some damn good ones.
You have every right to disagree with the professionalism of Law Enforcement, and to express your obvious distrust for either 1 percent or most LE. I can't tell which based on your statement above. For someone who so clearly feels strongly about the issues, I think you have a responsibility to get involved in the process and be a force for change. Laws, good and bad, are frequently (not always) put on the books as a result of the action of of an elected representative of the people. If that rep wants to keep the job, they gotta run for re-election. Your County Sheriff is subject to the same evaluation process.
Change the world if it needs changing.
MADD proved that it can be done.
You can do it too.
For all of my adult life people have been calling them liars, theives, cowards, etc. I served with pride, and because I actually lived it, and did it, I know what the facts are and what they aren't.
The vast majority of people who put on a uniform and a gun and go to work every day do so for all the right reasons. The fact that they continue to do so in the face of all they encounter, both from the crooks and the people who just hate cops speaks volumes for the kind of people they really are.
Have a good day, wicky.
I am done with all these threads. Back to the fun stuff.

 

[snake321]

As a Certified HGN Technician I can be called to testify on my observations regarding the subject that I conducted the HGN evaluation on.

A DUI prosecution relies not on a single observation, but the totality of the evidence and observations. Any one of the observations is not sufficient to prove a DUI. You have to take into account:

1. Poor Driving pattern. (Initial reasonable suspicion/probable Cause)
2. Subject appearance
3. Poor performance on FSTs (including HGN)
4. Chemical Testing (Blood, breath or urine test) indicatiing elavated alcohol concentration.

Any one of the above, in and of itself, does not give rise to a DUI charge. But when all of them are put together, there is substantial probable cause to arrest and charge the individual with DUI.

Very good, you are well versed on the subject Boatcop.
Now will you please answer the question?

 

[snake321]

You almost got me. I see that you are just kidding around. I almost believed that you were that stupid. Kudos to you. I love your sense of humor.

I hope you're not a cop. You assumed that everyone not liking the breathalizer was a criminal. You wrote it.
You read my post and asked about my class teaching me when it said nothing like that. Observation, being a huge cop tool seems to have been left out of your toolbox.
You're a moron, you don't do either side any good....

 

[Wicky]

The "Eye Test" is called Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus". It looks for a phenomenom where the eye "jerks" involuntarily when the subject has alcohol in their system.

There are 3 components to the the HGN test.

1. Onset of Nystagmus (jerking) prior 45 degrees
2. Distinct Nystagmus at maximum deviation.
3. Vertical Nystagmus

There are some medical or eye conditions that will cause nystagmus, absent any alcohol. But they usually manifest themselves with the eye in a normal resting position, and is obvious prior to testing.

Defense Attorneys make billions of dollars every year from drunk drivers. A whole lot more than the Government could ever think of bringing in from fines or penalties. An average DUI will bring in between $1,500-$3,000 in fines. Out of this, take the cost of the officer's pay. Court time. Judge's pay, prosecutor pay, Court clerk's pay. Court reporter's pay. Lab technician (if blood was taken) Test equipment, etc.

It will cost around $10,000 for a defense attorney to take a case to trial. More, if they hire an "Expert Witness" ($1-3,000 an hour, minumum).

This is a whole lot of trouble, time and expense. Especially when the alternative is so much cheaper and easier.

DON"T DRINK AND DRIVE!

Alan, out of curiosity, do you know what happens to ones eyes after they have wavefront lasik to correct both poor vision and severe astigmatism as I have had done? Especially when using OTC eyedrops containingPolyethylene Glycol, Propylene glycol, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, zinc chloride, and Hydrochloric acid???

 

[socalmoney]

I hope you're not a cop. You assumed that everyone not liking the breathalizer was a criminal. You wrote it.
You read my post and asked about my class teaching me when it said nothing like that. Observation, being a huge cop tool seems to have been left out of your toolbox.
You're a moron, you don't do either side any good....

You weren't kidding?

 

[Wicky]

Wicky,

A trained, educated, and skilled peace officer does use his judgement every day. I too believe Alan uses his well, and I believe most do. I spent 25 years in the profession, and it was my experience that most do. The days of ill-educated people in this profession are numbered. We suffer every time a bad cop screws up, we suffer every time a good cop makes a bad call. I ran the Field Training Program for my dept. for many years, and I am thankful I was able to weed a few out, and train some damn good ones.
You have every right to disagree with the professionalism of Law Enforcement, and to express your obvious distrust for either 1 percent or most LE. I can't tell which based on your statement above. For someone who so clearly feels strongly about the issues, I think you have a responsibility to get involved in the process and be a force for change. Laws, good and bad, are frequently (not always) put on the books as a result of the action of of an elected representative of the people. If that rep wants to keep the job, they gotta run for re-election. Your County Sheriff is subject to the same evaluation process.
Change the world if it needs changing.
MADD proved that it can be done.
You can do it too.
For all of my adult life people have been calling them liars, theives, cowards, etc. I served with pride, and because I actually lived it, and did it, I know what the facts are and what they aren't.
The vast majority of people who put on a uniform and a gun and go to work every day do so for all the right reasons. The fact that they continue to do so in the face of all they encounter, both from the crooks and the people who just hate cops speaks volumes for the kind of people they really are.
Have a good day, wicky.
I am done with all these threads. Back to the fun stuff.

Much respect flyinbowtie. Much respect. It is the laws and not so much the enforement of the laws that I have issues with. Maybe I went off track a few times and I appologize for that. I know most LE are just doing their jobs. I do use the word most.

I do voice my opinion to our elected officials and I actually have prevented or help prevented some major bs laws. I've shown up to city council meetings and have given my 10 cents worth successfully, I might add.

It just seems there are so many new laws that our lawmakers have made it is now self interest job security. Career politicians suck period.
With all the times I have been pulled over, I have been pulled over for a damn good reason with the exception of being pulled over in prime time DUI time. I accept all responsibility for my own actions. Also, last summer on the lake was total bullshit and apparently this LE, according to other LE, has numbered days. IRonically enough, his predecessor was a good friend of mine and had been out on my boat on a few occasions. You probably have already guessed that I am a libertarian. Less govt is good and this whole rant was just to bring this to everyone's attention.
Sometimes I come accross the wrong way behind the keyboard.
I still stand strong on DUIs being mostly "all about the money."
Mow,
Wicky

 

[socalmoney]

About 5 years ago I did a presentation in a speechmaking class where everyone took the sobriety tests,except the eye test which is totally useless,and 3 people advanced to the breathalizer part.

This is just a ridiculous statement. You present this as if it is conclusive proof that FSTs are all BS. Why are you testing sober people in a speech making class. How are these related. How did you perform the tests. What training do you have to validate the tests. From what I can tell you don't even know how to properly perform them based on statements you made about peripheral vision being a test.

I find that people who hate cops, often do because they they get in the way of their criminal lifestyle.

You assumed that everyone not liking the breathalizer was a criminal. You wrote it.

Never said anything in my above opinion about people who don't like breathalysers. Read it again. You can bag on me for typing "they" twice.

I will add to my above opinion and say that I also find that people who hate cops seem to have such a high opinion of themselves and feel they are so much better than the rest of man kind that no person, cop or otherwise should dare tell them they made a mistake.

 

[cave]

I see you have not lost someone you love to a drunk driver. .08 is irrelevant to me. If your not smart enough to know "when to say when" and call a cab, designate a sober driver or call a friend.
Buzz kill over,
carry on

 

[Wicky]

I see you have not lost someone you love to a drunk driver. .08 is irrelevant to me. If your not smart enough to know "when to say when" and call a cab, designate a sober driver or call a friend.
Buzz kill over,
carry on

Exactly, .08 BAC is not drunk.

 

[BoatCop]

Very good, you are well versed on the subject Boatcop.
Now will you please answer the question?

I did answer it. I couldn't testify as an expert. Only on my observations. It's up to the prosecutor or defense to provide experts and debate the validity of those observations.

Alan, out of curiosity, do you know what happens to ones eyes after they have wavefront lasik to correct both poor vision and severe astigmatism as I have had done? Especially when using OTC eyedrops containingPolyethylene Glycol, Propylene glycol, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, zinc chloride, and Hydrochloric acid???

I don't know what exactly happens, but I do know that my son (also a Police Officer) who has had Lasik, and also had a lens replacement to repair a cataract, due to an eye injury when he was 10, did not display any Nystagmus. Even while he was using prescription eye drops right after the surgery.

The Nystagmus is brought about by involuntary muscle contractions. Alcohol interferes with and tries to overcome the voluntary muscles that move the eyes to the side or up and down. Although I've only observed vertical nystagmus in people with BACs in the upper .20s and .30s, are on PCP or certain inhalants (Toluene, benzene, etc.)

If you really are concerned with whether your condition can cause a Police Officer to conclude you are under the influence when you aren't, based upon HGN, you can read about HGN here:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/nystagmus/hgntxt.html#four

This is the basis for our HGN Training.

 

[Wicky]

Thanks for the linky. Apparently HGN isn't conclusive if 100% of all courts across the country aren't buying into it.

I found this quote from the NHTSA very interesting.....

"Despite the strong correlation between alcohol consumption and HGN, some trial courts across the country still do not admit the results of the HGN test into evidence. Although the scientific evidence to prove this correlation exists, due to lack of knowledge, inadequate preparation, or limited proffers, the evidence prosecutors have presented to courts has at times been insufficient to satisfy the courts' evidentiary standards for admitting scientific or technical evidence. As a result, law enforcement officers in a number of jurisdictions use the HGN test only for purposes of establishing probable cause if at all, without securing admission of the test results into evidence at trial. Ultimately, the factfinder never hears the results of the most reliable field sobriety test. "

With this and the breathalyzer being questionable a good attorney could be worth the money if one was only .08 BAC.

Sorry to jump off track.

 

[kilrtoy]

Yes, breath tests test air coming out the mouth and make assumptions about alcohol in the blood, which are usually valid.

Ok! travelling thru the mouth.

 

[Ultracrazy]

Wicky,

A trained, educated, and skilled peace officer does use his judgement every day. I too believe Alan uses his well, and I believe most do. I spent 25 years in the profession, and it was my experience that most do. The days of ill-educated people in this profession are numbered. We suffer every time a bad cop screws up, we suffer every time a good cop makes a bad call. I ran the Field Training Program for my dept. for many years, and I am thankful I was able to weed a few out, and train some damn good ones.
You have every right to disagree with the professionalism of Law Enforcement, and to express your obvious distrust for either 1 percent or most LE. I can't tell which based on your statement above. For someone who so clearly feels strongly about the issues, I think you have a responsibility to get involved in the process and be a force for change. Laws, good and bad, are frequently (not always) put on the books as a result of the action of of an elected representative of the people. If that rep wants to keep the job, they gotta run for re-election. Your County Sheriff is subject to the same evaluation process.
Change the world if it needs changing.
MADD proved that it can be done.
You can do it too.
For all of my adult life people have been calling them liars, theives, cowards, etc. I served with pride, and because I actually lived it, and did it, I know what the facts are and what they aren't.
The vast majority of people who put on a uniform and a gun and go to work every day do so for all the right reasons. The fact that they continue to do so in the face of all they encounter, both from the crooks and the people who just hate cops speaks volumes for the kind of people they really are.
Have a good day, wicky.
I am done with all these threads. Back to the fun stuff.

Amen.......

 

[Ultracrazy]

Exactly, .08 BAC is not drunk.

I've seen people below .08 not able to function......

 

[Ultracrazy]

Thanks for the linky. Apparently HGN isn't conclusive if 100% of all courts across the country aren't buying into it.

I found this quote from the NHTSA very interesting.....

"Despite the strong correlation between alcohol consumption and HGN, some trial courts across the country still do not admit the results of the HGN test into evidence. Although the scientific evidence to prove this correlation exists, due to lack of knowledge, inadequate preparation, or limited proffers, the evidence prosecutors have presented to courts has at times been insufficient to satisfy the courts' evidentiary standards for admitting scientific or technical evidence. As a result, law enforcement officers in a number of jurisdictions use the HGN test only for purposes of establishing probable cause if at all, without securing admission of the test results into evidence at trial. Ultimately, the factfinder never hears the results of the most reliable field sobriety test. "

With this and the breathalyzer being questionable a good attorney could be worth the money if one was only .08 BAC.

Sorry to jump off track.[/QUOTE

:smackhead

 

[snake321]

This is just a ridiculous statement. You present this as if it is conclusive proof that FSTs are all BS. Why are you testing sober people in a speech making class. How are these related. How did you perform the tests. What training do you have to validate the tests. From what I can tell you don't even know how to properly perform them based on statements you made about peripheral vision being a test.





Never said anything in my above opinion about people who don't like breathalysers. Read it again. You can bag on me for typing "they" twice.

I will add to my above opinion and say that I also find that people who hate cops seem to have such a high opinion of themselves and feel they are so much better than the rest of man kind that no person, cop or otherwise should dare tell them they made a mistake.

Testing sober people who also fail shows that roadside tests are inconclusive.I have studied all the testing, been tested many times and have won at trial.
Never said perriferal vision was a test.

People that don't agree with DUI testing methods hate cops??
You're all over the place, have a drink, calm down.

 

[snake321]

I did answer it. I couldn't testify as an expert. Only on my observations. It's up to the prosecutor or defense to provide experts and debate the validity of those observations.

Thank you very much Boatcop

you may step down...

 

[earlbrown]

I can't pass an HGN test if I'm stone cold sober. My eyes don't track smoothly no matter what and I still have better than 20/20 vision.
The main thing that tripped that test up around here was having the front strobes on a night while doing the FSTs.

I tend to agree about it being about money to. From what I've noticed any accusation concerning either alcohol or children you're basically convicted as soon as you're charged. If you're actually guilty, then you're a bastard and if you're not guilty, you're a bastard that's trying to get away with it. (In GA they have what's called ALS. It stands for Automatic License Suspension. The arresting officer can fill out a form and have your license revoked right then before you even go to trial. How's that for unconstitutional?)

The main thing a lot of people don't realize is that a DUI accusation isn't accusing you of being drunk. It's accusing you of being less than 100%. If you read anything on an intox box and are functioning at 99%, then you're DUI the way the laws are written. Or if you show absoulty NO signs of imparement and blow a .08% you're still going to get a DUI. It's the same charge if you're a .30% and can't walk or speak. There is no specific charge for being drunk.

It's not socially unacceptable to drive after your girlfriend left, your dog got run over, your grandmother died,or you've been up and working for 20+ hours straight. Without the taboo of alcohol, there's no outrage if someone falls asleep from driving while being a dumbass. If you fall asleep and crash people will feel sorry for your misfortune.


The other thing is that alot of DUI convictions will result in the fines getting paid. You can convict a suspect with money just as easy as someone that can't pay the fines. People with jobs and stuff to lose will have to pay up quickly to keep their lives and their families together. I'm sure that helps offset the convictions that result in people getting fed three times a day in crime school.

Just remember the radar reads correct or lower than you're going and the intox box reads correct or higher than actual.

 

[Wicky]

I can't pass an HGN test if I'm stone cold sober. My eyes don't track smoothly no matter what and I still have better than 20/20 vision.
The main thing that tripped that test up around here was having the front strobes on a night while doing the FSTs.

I tend to agree about it being about money to. From what I've noticed any accusation concerning either alcohol or children you're basically convicted as soon as you're charged. If you're actually guilty, then you're a bastard and if you're not guilty, you're a bastard that's trying to get away with it. (In GA they have what's called ALS. It stands for Automatic License Suspension. The arresting officer can fill out a form and have your license revoked right then before you even go to trial. How's that for unconstitutional?)

The main thing a lot of people don't realize is that a DUI accusation isn't accusing you of being drunk. It's accusing you of being less than 100%. If you read anything on an intox box and are functioning at 99%, then you're DUI the way the laws are written. Or if you show absoulty NO signs of imparement and blow a .08% you're still going to get a DUI. It's the same charge if you're a .30% and can't walk or speak. There is no specific charge for being drunk.

It's not socially unacceptable to drive after your girlfriend left, your dog got run over, your grandmother died,or you've been up and working for 20+ hours straight. Without the taboo of alcohol, there's no outrage if someone falls asleep from driving while being a dumbass. If you fall asleep and crash people will feel sorry for your misfortune.


The other thing is that alot of DUI convictions will result in the fines getting paid. You can convict a suspect with money just as easy as someone that can't pay the fines. People with jobs and stuff to lose will have to pay up quickly to keep their lives and their families together. I'm sure that helps offset the convictions that result in people getting fed three times a day in crime school.

Just remember the radar reads correct or lower than you're going and the intox box reads correct or higher than actual.

That pretty much sums it up. It's almost all about the money. LEts not forget about the elderyl or the blue tags hanging from the rearview mirror that cause a shitload of accidents deadly or not on a daily basis. Probably more accidents are caused by the elderly/handicapped if someone besides LE/govt put the statistics together. We feel sorry for grampa because age is inevitable, we don't feel sorry for the one who drank a beer and got a DUI because this was brought on by himself.

 

[Wicky]

People that don't agree with DUI testing methods hate cops??
You're all over the place, have a drink, calm down.

LMAO

 

[Harley5229]

Thanks for the linky. Apparently HGN isn't conclusive if 100% of all courts across the country aren't buying into it.

I found this quote from the NHTSA very interesting.....

"Despite the strong correlation between alcohol consumption and HGN, some trial courts across the country still do not admit the results of the HGN test into evidence. Although the scientific evidence to prove this correlation exists, due to lack of knowledge, inadequate preparation, or limited proffers, the evidence prosecutors have presented to courts has at times been insufficient to satisfy the courts' evidentiary standards for admitting scientific or technical evidence. As a result, law enforcement officers in a number of jurisdictions use the HGN test only for purposes of establishing probable cause if at all, without securing admission of the test results into evidence at trial. Ultimately, the factfinder never hears the results of the most reliable field sobriety test. "

With this and the breathalyzer being questionable a good attorney could be worth the money if one was only .08 BAC.

Sorry to jump off track.

I don't know anything about HGN but I do spend my days around stats a lot and research and nothing in this world is 100% - but generally laws, etc are not based off one study or one test but by reviewing stackloads and stackloads of years of data and then analyzing that to see what the majority of data suggests (also true with differences between .08 and .10, DNA, etc). Sure, things we use now may in time be changed, that's the nature of the world we live in. It always more and more research. But I think the ultimate goal is public safety. Better to be safe and have multiple tests available to the officer out in the field in order to better establish the condition of the driver. I think Boatcop stated it takes multiple things and multiple facts to establish someone is driving under the influence. An HGN test may not be 100% but combined with other factors may give enough cause to believe the person is intoxicated.

And yes I don't dismiss your point that much of life today seems to be focused on making $$$. Don't get me started on the whole red light camera craze happening right now...but I do believe there are also very good intensions behind many of the laws out there surrounding drunk driving. And sure elderly and sleepy people cause many accidents. I don't think anyone would deny that. But the we will never make the roads 100% safe as long as humans are involved (and maybe wild animals who dart into the road)!!! I also think there has been a huge public safety campaign to get the point across that driving while tired is just as dangerous as driving under the influence and can impair your driving skills just the same. Same as driving on certain medications (which can get you a DUI too). Maybe not all states are this way but Washington has really focused on this.

We are all entitled to hold our own beliefs on gov't, cops, lawyers, etc. I just hope we all try to be as safe as possible on the roads. Slow down, get off the phone, quit doing their makeup, quit reaching back towards their kids in the back seat, quit driving if they are tired, etc...I wish only the best for everyone on here and their families either when traveling by road, air or water!!

 

[snake321]

We are all entitled to hold our own beliefs on gov't, cops, lawyers, etc. I just hope we all try to be as safe as possible on the roads. Slow down, get off the phone, quit doing their makeup, quit reaching back towards their kids in the back seat, quit driving if they are tired, etc...I wish only the best for everyone on here and their families either when traveling by road, air or water!!

Here,here,nice. What office are you running for?

 

[Wicky]

We are all entitled to hold our own beliefs on gov't, cops, lawyers, etc. I just hope we all try to be as safe as possible on the roads. Slow down, get off the phone, quit doing their makeup, quit reaching back towards their kids in the back seat, quit driving if they are tired, etc...I wish only the best for everyone on here and their families either when traveling by road, air or water!!

Here,here,nice. What office are you running for?

No Doubt!! Kissed any babies lately?

 

[Harley5229]

HA! Not running for anything...but I am in support of small, endangered, weak, three legged crippled children and their blind/deaf dogs...??????

Is it Friday yet?????

 

[Wicky]

Can't wait until Friday!!! Turning 40!! But still acting like I'm 16 as you can see!!:beer