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The journey to Death Valley...and beyond.

Discussion in 'Ride Reports - Post pics of trips / maps / and des' started by Flyinbowtie, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    It is about 11 pm and I can finally get online here in Furnace Creek Californai....the heart of Death Valley. We stopped in Ridgecrest and then headed out.
    Or should I say up.
    If.you think you have a bad mofo tow rig and want to test it out yank your RV over route 190 and come in to D.V. via Stovepipe Wells and get back to me. About a 3500 ft climb in roughly 10 miles. We started at around 44 degrees and it was 34 at the 5000 ft summit...then on the exhaust brake and down the 8 degree 2 lane and 58 degrees at the bottom.
    Unreal
    This trip has been over 20 years in the making. My grandmother was a schoolteacher in the 1950s through the 70s. She used to dig books out of the library discard pile and give them to me. I was a voracious reader. One was entitled "Death Valley in '49" by William L Manly.
    It is the autobiography of the man who quite literally named this place. Written in 1879. Last check out of library in 1950 before being put in the discard pile and in my possession for close to 50 years i imagine.
    So for the next day or two we will use the book and try to follow in some of his
    footsteps... and I will take you with us.
    Updates...and more on Mr Manly, with pics as I can get them to load up...to follow, if guys are interested.
    We stopped at the marker for Panamint City. This was a lawless silver town at 5000 ft.
    They shipped silver out in 400 lb cubes to discourage theft. Wells Fargo wouldn't serve the place due to the crime. This one pic took over 10 minutes to load...then failed. internet ain't a priority here. So please bear with me...may have to add them when we get to our next stop...Dumont Dunes.
    We stopped in our 55 ft ish rig at the Panamint City and Ballarat markers to take pics...in the middle of nowhere...and about a minute later 3 carloads of Asian tourists pulled in behind us. I dont know what they stared at more, our rig or the mountains and stunning vistas.
    Again pics to follow. I tried twice to upload 1 damn pic and watched upload to 80 % and fail
    More to come...
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  2. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180220_235347.jpg


    Hurray..30 min later and one pic
     
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  3. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    The Panamint mountains. Panamint City was in the lighter colored area left center in pic.
    20180220_123712.jpg
     
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  4. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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  5. Devilman

    Devilman lol, yeah, sure, ok......

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    Sounds like a cool adventure. I read a search & rescue guy's accounts of looking for a family that went missing years ago in Death Valley, was very intriguing. Can shoot you the link if you are into that sort of thing.

    Thanks for sharing your trip, looking forward to following along.
     
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  6. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Thanks would love it.
     
  7. TPC

    TPC Wrenching Dad

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    Take it all in Jeff. The locals say bulldozers are going to flatten most of it for an Oasis Resort.

    Dunno how accurate their takes are and how much hyperbole they’re spewing but all the old Jaspers claim it’s going to be history.

    Seems those buildings have some sort of historical significance or protection but the old buzzards claim none.

    Hopefully they are just getting everyone worked up to get a shit storm movement started.
    Good memories of the place from when I was a kid.

    You two are probably the only Americans there.
    Tradition is to walk down the highway shoulder in your speedos with a bottle of Jack.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  8. Devilman

    Devilman lol, yeah, sure, ok......

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  9. rivermobster

    rivermobster Club Banned

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    Awesome Jeff. :thumbup:
     
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  10. gqchris

    gqchris Well-Known Member

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    Love the posts and following your Adventure FBT. And also TPC, thanks guys for taking the time to bring us along on these adventures.
     
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  11. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Spoke to a ladybfrom the natural history museum yesterday. She was stunned to see my book. She told me of a place called "Manley's Beacon" which is close to where he camped. It is called the Devils Golf Course now. Strewn for hundreds of acres with giant chunks of salt and other minerals. At his time.it was wet and their wagons...pulled by oxen became stuck.
    I know so much about this man I was moved to place it on the salt formations.
    I am certain not many have brought his story back to this place.
    20180221_115054.jpg
     
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  12. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    His camp I was told was to the right on the edge of the valley floor. there was a road over there but it was washboarded like a mofo and I wasn't going to beat my truck to heck to get over there. the tourists...yes...the vast majority Asian...driving obvious rentals and doing 45 MPH out there are probably the cause of that.
    Here is another view..
    20180221_120225.jpg
     
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  13. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea why this is creating multiple threads. Could someone message a mod and ask that they be carefully combined please? Internet at 190 ft below sea level apparently isn't perfected. Sucked 30% of my battery and took 30 min to upload the 2 pics this time.
    More to come. This won't be over til Monday or so...
     
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  14. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180222_060513.jpg 20180222_060513.jpg 20180222_060513.jpg
     
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  15. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the 3 pics the same...geez...
    So you will see in the distance two tall mountains. The one to the left Manly calls,"the great sno peak".
    It nearly drove them insane. On the path to facing death by starvation and dehydration they stared at that peak...knowing the snow contained the water that could save them...and they could not get to it.
    The decision was then made that Manly and another man would try to walk out. They walked..climbing mountains and such...270 miles to San Fernando where they found a herd of cattle...and then killed the steer that saved them. The Mexican Cowboys who found them took pity on their condition and took them to the Hacienda. They spent two days recovering kinda...and then the Mexicans raised a troop and Manly led them back to Death Valley and they saved every soul in that camp of death.
     
  16. coolchange

    coolchange Lower level functionary

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    Love Death Valley. Haven't been in about 6 years. Looking to go back maybe in April.
    You going to do the back roads or does your rig keep you on the highway?
    I've done some wheelin in there. But my brother's been all over those mountains.
    Looking forward to the rest of the blog.
     
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  17. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Ancient, errr I mean vintage :rolleyes:, California born here and never been to DV. So I'm going to enjoy you sharing this adventure, Thanks !! :D
     
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  18. Yellowboat

    Yellowboat Well-Known Member

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    images.jpg I love death valley, it really is not of this world.

    If you are anywhere near salt creek make sure too look for Cyprinodon salinus. Aka salt creek pupfish. They are super small, but very beautiful. They live in super saturated salt solutions and temps that would kill us. Sadly they are critically endangered.

     
  19. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday we took a 1.5 mile hike up to the natural bridge area. This sorta reminded me of the slot canyons in Lake Powell. Lots of folks only making it half way and giving up. 20180222_121033.jpg
    I pointed out a huge crack in the side of this thing to Cindy and a couple of people..Scandanavian I think..looked where I was pointing and about soiled themselves. Couldn't get out from under it fast enough
    It will probably fail...in another 10,000 years.
    There is a Peak called Manlys Beacon and the "lake" is called manly as well but no one has apparently ever read his book. He never mentions using it as a guidepost.
    The camp host and his wife saw me sitting outside reading and asked what I was reading. I showed them and they got all excited. She snapped a pic of the face page and is trying to get some bigwig from the natural history people to come look at it.
    Later we went to the borax works.
    They have a wagon there. The 20 mile team deal. It is no joke.
    The rear wheels are 7 ft. Tall. They hauled two of them and a tanker behind that with 1200 gallons of water in it. First set of triples if you like. Gross weight...36k. And...the brakes had one set of shoes...made of leather.
     
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  20. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180222_134201.jpg
    I shot a close up of a repair to one of the rims. Looks like cast iron to me but they welded it
    20180222_134620.jpg
     
  21. yz450mm

    yz450mm Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty badass Adventure that you're on. I hear there's a pretty cool abandoned mine complex near you, I'm attaching a picture with the details. Sounds like you are heading East on this trip, but next time you should check it out. Screenshot_20180223-014743.jpg

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
     
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  22. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Manly speaks of sharing the trail with another company of wagons that called themselves the "Jayhawkers". He states they took another trail and he never saw them in Death Valley but they get credit for coming through here.
    He also speaks frequently of Mormons and their distinctive dress on the trail...spurs with long arms and 4 inch rowls..unique clothes and hats.
    He also says he was warned repeatedly to not let anyone in their train admit to being from Missouri to a Mormon. Apparently Brigham Young and his followers were run out of Missouri and Indiana and they were still very sore about it. Sound like a lot of blood was shed in this deal.
    In fact Manly said a Morman did indeed ask where they were from when they were about 60 miles from Salt Lake City... and they said Vermont...and the man replied about their hatred of Missourians. He said to Manly,"there are a lot of Missourians out on these plains that will never see California"
    Manly stated that his group had hired and elected a Morman as captain at the start and he was faithful to them all the way.
    Strange story...
    On an entirely different note..
    Life in an RV camp is rather bizarre.
    Late last afternoon we were sitting outside about 4pm having a cocktail...or she was..O was sopping Single Barrel...anyway rigs start rolling in about then. One fellow who appeared to be alone in a rented mini class C motor home made at least a dozen laps through here. I am talking a minimum of 3 miles....just driving up and down the lanes. He stopped at the camp host and asked how to pick a spot.
    Then he left.
    And came back about 5 min later and did another 10 or so laps. It was about dark when we went in. I have no idea where the gent wound up. He had Cindy about laughing outloud. Camp host guy likes to talk...says he has stories for days.
    I bet.
    We are gonna stay til Saturday morning. Wind in Pahrump is gonna be up and at Dumont as well. Had enough of that already. Will roll through Pahrump and grab a few things and fuel (diesel here is $5.04 a gallon...i don't think so..) then on to Dumont Dunes for a couple of days.
    Battery has been pulled down 50% in the time.it has taken me to upload words and pics. Tomorrow...some.info on how Furnace Creek got its name...I hope.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  23. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Demoman the one ton dually is 4x4 but she isnt sprung for the washboard roads out here and about loosens yer fillings on them. I would love to get out into the back country here but not in it. Not paying the $ to rent a jeep either.
    Of course we have the RZR Xp1000 in the trailee but they sorta frown on that stuff out here I am told. Something about a national park or sumthin...
     
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  24. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Interesting about the fed's frowning on using your RZR in the park, no surprise. For many years a group of us would trailer our PWCs from Havasu to Pierce Ferry. Then ride as far as gas would allow up into the Grand Canyon (40 miles or so), maybe seeing one or two bladder boats being ferried to their trailers at PF. We'd spend all day sight seeing and checking each canyon. Then they outlawed us, claiming we weren't there for the scenic beauty, we just wanted to spin donuts for fucks sake. Still never figured out what they thought we might hurt in a mile deep ditch --- cause erosion ? :eek:

    Sure enjoying your stories and pics, thank you !!
     
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  25. Yellowboat

    Yellowboat Well-Known Member

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    Eagle coach shop did a rebuild of the old borax wagons, it is flat out amazing how big they were. Here is a clip of them making an 1000# wheel.
     
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  26. coolchange

    coolchange Lower level functionary

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    A runup to rhyolite and then down through Titus Canyon is an interesting way toto spend about 5 hours. And Titus cyn is an easy Drive.
     
  27. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Internet is really weak tonight...judt one photo will do my best to add more tomorrow from Dumont. We leave death valley in the am 20180223_134507.jpg
    This is an amazing place. We hope to return..
     
  28. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    In Pahrump for fuel and such before Dumont. Diesel is 2.77 a gallon. Breaking news... California sucks. We had a very good time in Death Valley and will return.
    TPC was right....they have an area near the museum completely fenced off and there are banners on the fence showing a fancy new Hacienda style resort. I suppose that is what people want...new and shiny...but if there was ever a place where things built in the past should be cherished and maintained you would think this was it.
    After being there and seeing with my eyes what Manly saw with his I feel like I better understand and appreciate even more what he went through. Will finish the Death Valley part of the story later. On to dumont...might mount up the paddles...:)
     
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  29. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    We like to use our big buddy heater in the trailer. It is rated for indoor use and we have used it for 3 years no problem. I like using the little 1lb propane canisters. With the heater on low and the 4 D cell battery powered fan running 2 1 lb canisters will last about 8 hours. I set the forced air at 67 and it will come on around 5am...saves 12v batteries...although the 6v Trojan T105s are stout I sleep light and the fan coming one in the night wakes me up. We stopped at Wal-Mart in Pahrump and cindy bought the last 2 pack they had. Worker said even the warehouse is empty. We have enough for these last couple of days. Worst case scenario I hook to a BBQ tank...
    Last tank of fuel including that 3rd gear 35 MPH 10 mile climb up Town Pass and then climbing out of DV to Pahrump I hand calculated 10.3 MPG.
    No complaints.
    Back on DV.
    Manly says Furnace Creek was named so in 1862. Apparently some miners set up what is called an "Air Furnace", to assist with processing some silver ore. All was well til they found out it wasn't silver...but lead.
    Sorta shot the whole plan down the tubes. I dont know what an air furnace is will have to look that up later. Manly said that while they were passing the current Furnace Creek area several of their oxen were hit by arrows shot by Shoshone Indians. Manly stated all b8t one recovered...tbey butchered and ate it. Stated that he expected some sort of retaliation by the Shoshone as some dumb ass in their party had stolen some sort of squash the natives had grown. So they sorta had it coming.
     
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  30. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    This stationary diesel powered Furnace Creek for over a decade in its earliest days. The thing is over 7 ft tall...275 HP. 20180223_134000.jpg

    Zoom in on the pic. Apparently solid roller lifters have been around awhile...

    We are now at Dumont Dunes. 4G no bars LOL. I have a few more pics like this I will load as I can. Gonna go get a couple fingers of single barrel and start a camp fire...
     
  31. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180223_140919.jpg
    A close up of the roller lifter assembly.
     
  32. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180223_135150.jpg
    The steam powered vehicle that replaced the 20 mule team...and was then replaced by the locomotive in the pic above.
    After the ambush at furnace creek Manly and the rescuers he brought wanted to get the survivors out of there. As they crested the last ridge where the could look down into the valley Manly and the survivors all stopped for a moment and paused to reflect on their ordeal. "Good by to you..you valley of Death. Death Valley...we leave you now and forever..
    Bennett became a shopkeeper in LA but later followed Manly up the central valley..a miserable jouney in itself. Manly crossed the country once more..he mined gold in the Sierras near my home only to lose it all in a flood that swept through a hotel he was staying in in Marysville Ca. He returned to the gold mines the following season and was then able to return to Ohio to see his family..only to strike out for the West again.
    In the epilogue of his book he laments the growing weakness of Americans in 1879. The trip that took him 9 months walking and on horseback could then be done in less than 10 days by train...
    It appears he ultimately settled in San Jose where at the age of 60 he gathered his diaries and wrote his story..a story that has captivated me for 40 years. I will pist some final thoughts and pics later...the wind or returning to Dumont today after an awesome weekend and we need to get outta here...although going in to SoCal doesn't thrill me
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  33. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to share this trip in both pictures and Manly's story !! In the blur of history, it's these individual stories, of the great people that lived it and through great sacrifice, created it, that are so easily overlooked and forgotten.
    Following along has been a real treat sir. :)
     
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  34. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Taboma you are most welcome. Comments like yours make waking up at midnight and spending 30 minutes loading one pic worth it.
    Here are some more. 20180223_135404.jpg
    This was considered state of the art in log moving. Cut the tree down...limb it and fox the chain under and around it then tighten it up....hitch up the critters and drag it 30 miles to where ever it was needed. Those wheels are 10 ft tall... 20180223_134252.jpg typical freight wagon of the day...qnd the ever present water barrel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  35. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    20180223_134036.jpg
    The remains of a stage for people. Not the longitudinal "spring" the coach sits on....the grayish deal...it is leather.
    What a ride...
     
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  36. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    We had a good time at Dumont...did Not want to leave but checked the weather and the wind was coming big time. Was supposed to be 30 MPH by this afternoon. So...after a wonderful evening by the campfire and a good couple days of riding we loaded up again and we are now in So Cal for a couple days visiting family before heading north...hoping the snow stops before then...
    The fire last night.
    20180224_174734.jpg
     
  37. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not, following this entertaining thread, TPC's adventures, and even riding along on Headless Hula's road trips has helped me to seriously consider getting a rig and just traveling from coast to coast. I'm retired and in a couple of more years my wife retires and before it's too late in life, we need to see more of this country. We've had our place at Havasu for 23 years, which has served us well, but it's time to change up the game.
    I was chuckling at that sign on the people wagon, "Remodeled for use at Ash Meadows Ranch" --- Wasn't that a rather famous Nevada Brothel back in the late 60's that's not all that far from Death Valley ? ---- a long rather hazy post-Vegas story how I'd know that and technically, the closest I've been to Death Valley, ha ha ha
    Anyway, thanks again and continued safe travels !!
     
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  38. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Taboma I can tell you that this trip has been a good one... in every sense of the word. So good we are planning one for next year already. Different routes and locations, and probably leave in April 2019 as the rest of this year is already booked.
    Traveling as we have is very relaxing, stop when you want to stop, stay when you want to stay, and go when you want to go. A very low stress deal.
    I highly recommend it.
    In the campground we stayed in at DV many of the people were both friendly and interesting, and they had lived some interesting lives. Very low key. One guy was on the road for the next 10 months, he volunteers to do talks at the visitor center on the 20 mule team deal he is an expert on that. The park service offered to reimburse him his 14 bucks a night, but as a senior he only pays 7 so he refused it.
    He is headed to Zion in April to do 2 months there as a camp host. Gets paid a few bucks and has a free full hook up site.
    You are right, there is a lot of this country to see and we are in the same position you are...when Cindy retires, we are going to go see some of it.
     
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  39. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Honestly the only experience we've had with a 5th wheel was buying one, having it trucked to our driveway, then living in it for three years while we got our wildfire burned house replaced. When we moved into the house we still had the lake place, so we sold it and they came and trucked it away. I will say, it was a nice big Grand Junction, so with the deck we built, we were quite comfy --- other than the shower :(
    So my question is, are you happy with your sweet setup --- which appears to be nice toy hauler, nice dualy tow truck and room for the RZR ? So towing, versus a motorhome towing a toy trailer ? Or a Jeep perhaps ? I've never driven a motorhome or towed anything as large as a 5th wheel, just so ya know.
    Anyway, don't mean to bug you, just interested in your perspective --- thanks
     
  40. Her454

    Her454 Well-Known Member

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    LOVE THIS THREAD Jeff! Didn't know you and Cindy took the trip! I've always wanted to check out DV, its beautiful in it's own way. RV travel is the way to go. Rory and I took a trip about 5 years ago with the old RV and left here and drove the lower states all the way to the Florida Keys. Stayed a month, sailed to the Bahama's and then took the upper states back. It was an amazing trip, and one we plan to do again soon.

    And BTW, I would love this old coach for my backyard LOL!!!!
     
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  41. Hammer

    Hammer Well-Known Member

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    My dad and his buddies have made annual trip to the death valley for decades, used to do over night trips on ATC’s. They stopped roughly 10 years ago. I’ve been all over the panamint valley with my dad by Jeep and slept in the mountains and trails you speak of.

    Side note: Manson’s cabin is in Death Valley, I’ve actually slept in the very cabin he was caught at.

    My dad and his friends came across Manson’s family with shotguns at the gate in the 60’s. At the time they had no idea nor did anyone else that there was a “Manson family”

    Great history in those hills


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  42. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Hey T!
    Yeah we wanted to get away and decided to do this. We were going to do it last year but with Dawson and everything it got put off. Have had a blast, at Cindy's Mom's til early Friday and then going to head home. Looks like there may be a window in the weather to get the trailer in to the house, if not we will probably drop it down at Justin's house (less than 1000 ft. elevation) and go grab it when things settle down. Looks like we will have the windshield wipers on for most of the trip no matter what.
    The weather guessers are saying there could be 5 or 6 inches of snow on the way at home between now and then, we shall see. Backing the trailer up behind the shop in snow isn't my idea of a good time...

    Hammer sounds like you had some cool adventures with your Dad. Awesome memories. Scotty's Castle and the Ranch are both closed until 2020 due to damage from flooding from the storms in the winter of 2015-2016. We will return when that is open...

    Taboma what we have works well for us at where we our in our lives now. Every option out there has its pros and cons. I think if I was completely done with the off road deal and money was no barrier a diesel pusher and small tow vehicle might be an option.
    There are a growing number of people buying Class 8 tractors and setting them up as private RVs and towing huge 5th wheels with a smart car on the deck of the truck.. check out rvhauler.ca The guy is in Canada..but you get the idea.
    We saw one in Death Valley he had built and it was very nice. a Volvo with I shift and a D13 designed for 80k doesn't even breathe hard with a 30k RV behind it.

    So yes our set up works well for us...when the boys were young we had a gas powered 30 ft southwind and towed a toybox behind it. When the boys grew up we diid a Cabover camper for a couple years. I like my truck and with the DRW and the manual trans the exhaust brake is awesome on grades...and we regularly pull Donner Pass to go play...

    Do some research...ask your friends...read the forums...and go for it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  43. Her454

    Her454 Well-Known Member

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    Breaks my heart every time I think about Dawson. Glad you two are having such a great trip! You are definitely in for some nasty weather up your way. Here too but no snow this low, although we got a bit last week. A little out of the way, but you are welcome to park the RV here too if you need to. Talked to the hubby last night and he said we would try and take a trip to DV this spring with the bikes. Brother and SIL did it a few years ago and loved it.
     
  44. 76 Southwind

    76 Southwind Well-Known Member

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    Great Read Sir !!! Thanks for sharing.
     
  45. Devilman

    Devilman lol, yeah, sure, ok......

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    Thanks for continuing to post the pics & commentary, sounds like a great time. Would love to go out there & get lost for a little while so to speak. Funny that about the wagon & the leather suspension. At a museum in Colorado Springs we visited recently, there was an old stagecoach with a similar set up. The axles were sprung traditionally, but the coach "body" had the leather strap suspension as well. Pretty sure I have a pic & the write up on it, need to look.
     
  46. Flyinbowtie

    Flyinbowtie Well-Known Member

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    Woke up at 7am and checked the weather and saw a chance to get over the grapevine and home..so we loaded up and took off. Got a late start and hit serious wipers on max rain near Fresno someplace. As we got further north things looked pretty bad towards the hills. I am sure Her 454 was getting hit hard the clouds over her way were unreal. As we started up towards home the temps dropped to 40 and the wind was an honest 45mph. Not exactly the best conditions to back the toy hauler up the 300 ft driveway...in the dark.
    But we got it done. Dumped the water tank and the low spot drains and drug my sorry behind into the house built a roaring fire in the woodstove. House is warming up. ..and we are home safe and sound with a couple inches of snow due by morning...
    This was a fun trip and the support and comments by all of you were much appreciated. Hope you got a taste of what it was all about.
    2 fingers of single barrel and I will be out like a light...
    Thanks again for following along. We will be doing another trip like this in 2019...potential targets have been identified and we hope to make it just as fun as this one was...with that..i am done..
     
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  47. phuggit

    phuggit Well-Known Member

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    Glad you made it home safe. Thanks for letting us tag along for the adventure.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
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  48. Wutluv

    Wutluv Well-Known Member

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    Do you own any?
     
  49. Yellowboat

    Yellowboat Well-Known Member

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    I wish, they are big time illegal to even touch. Not too mention there would be no way to maintain the habitat.
     
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  50. stephenkatsea

    stephenkatsea Well-Known Member

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    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.
     

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