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The Refuge

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Anyone remember when it was originally developed, I vaguely recall the golf course being an big deal with Arnold Palmer's name attached to it somehow. And then I think after some setbacks at the turn of economy his name was removed or maybe opted out. I have been wanting to get to the restaurant for some bit of time, almost did new years eve last year there. guess, I'm gonna need to wait for the reopening. I sure hope it all plays out for the good of the homeowners there, there have been some big investments made.
 

2Driver

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If I lived in the refuge I would do everything in my power to keep that course maintained. You don’t want all that property to turn to shit.

Is it possible to pay the grounds crew and the water bill through the HOA temporarily?


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IMO An HOA board cant authorize use of funds for that without starting a home owners lawsuit or without major changes to the CCRs, which would have to be approved and voted in by the home owners.

This is the slippery slope, but you are right, once the course goes to hell its a no win except for the attorneys
 
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Ace in the Hole

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Anyone remember when it was originally developed, I vaguely recall the golf course being an big deal with Arnold Palmer's name attached to it somehow. And then I think after some setbacks at the turn of economy his name was removed or maybe opted out.

The altered the course....so the name goes away. That was a stupid decision IMO...among others.
 

2Driver

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For perspective read about
The Lakes course and Club West in Ahwatukee Az.

I was lucky in Desert Mt Scottsdale as they had a long term transition plan but I wouldn't have wanted to be an owner during it
 
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TCHB

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Sad thing is someone needs to move fast. When a course gets browned out it takes a lot of money to bring it back. Since the course was redesigned it kinda sucks IMO. A huge loss for Havasu.
With the temps we have been getting the grass and greens will be gone soon.
 
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MooreMoney

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They are keeping the greens watered because that’s what’s the $$$. Greens cost over 50k per green. I have a home on hole 1 that looks at the club. My guts telling me someone is waiting for BK then buy it for pennies on the dollar. They do have wells for water too. The clubhouse and grounds are really nice. First class if you ask me. Shame the lawsuits Ect ran it into the ground.

If you could put lots where they were going to out the RV park you could get your investment back ASAP. I see opportunity to whoever owns it.


Currently they do zero marketing or sales of memberships. We moved in no one sent us a membership packet marketing brochure ect. Seems like they needed a true salesperson so get some memberships. The town has grown 40% in the last 10 years no reason the amount of rounds should of gone up 40%.
 

Joker

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I’d imagine summer months always run negative at the golf courses both in havasu and bullhead area.
They are keeping the greens watered because that’s what’s the $$$. Greens cost over 50k per green. I have a home on hole 1 that looks at the club. My guts telling me someone is waiting for BK then buy it for pennies on the dollar. They do have wells for water too. The clubhouse and grounds are really nice. First class if you ask me. Shame the lawsuits Ect ran it into the ground.

If you could put lots where they were going to out the RV park you could get your investment back ASAP. I see opportunity to whoever owns it.


Currently they do zero marketing or sales of memberships. We moved in no one sent us a membership packet marketing brochure ect. Seems like they needed a true salesperson so get some memberships. The town has grown 40% in the last 10 years no reason the amount of rounds should of gone up 40%.

we’re paying 4,200.00 per couple at Laughlin Ranch which i think is a steal. I’m not sure I’d want to live on a course where i didnt have a stake in it.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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They are keeping the greens watered because that’s what’s the $$$. Greens cost over 50k per green. I have a home on hole 1 that looks at the club. My guts telling me someone is waiting for BK then buy it for pennies on the dollar. They do have wells for water too. The clubhouse and grounds are really nice. First class if you ask me. Shame the lawsuits Ect ran it into the ground.

If you could put lots where they were going to out the RV park you could get your investment back ASAP. I see opportunity to whoever owns it.


Currently they do zero marketing or sales of memberships. We moved in no one sent us a membership packet marketing brochure ect. Seems like they needed a true salesperson so get some memberships. The town has grown 40% in the last 10 years no reason the amount of rounds should of gone up 40%.

As a relatively new resident, about a year and half, here is my take on everything that is going on......

  • We are not golfers, we didnt buy in the Refuge because of the golf course, we bought because we fell in love with the house, the gated neighborhood with security rolling around (if you want to call it that but the trucks do say security on them), and the views from our house are amazing, and we stole the house way below market. The realtor listing the house was clueless, it wasnt listed correctly in the MLS, the RV garage wasnt mentioned and the house technically has 5 bedrooms not 3 as listed and Stacy uncovered the place and we jumped on it. The homeowners husband had died and she didnt need a 4100 square foot house by herself. We dont live on the course, its nice to have the course but it wasn't what sold us on living here.
  • The neighborhood did not end up like the founding fathers thought it would........there are more weekend boaters living in here than golfers. There are 360 homesites, 237 are built on, but there are only 60 full time residents. The balance are snowbirds and weekend boaters just like any where else in Havasu. So you dont have 237 hard core golfers supporting the course or the restaurant / bar, or better yet 360 golfer residents supporting the course / bar.
  • There is a core group of residents who used the course and frequented the bar and restaurant, but that number of people is too small to make the course or the restaurant a success. There was no marketing of either entity, but my observation is that many of the people liked it that way. They were living in basically a private country club that very few people knew was public course and knew that it was a public restaurant and bar. You cant have a private country club for HOA dues of a little over a $100 a month let alone no one time buy in price. Try joining a country club anywhere else, 50k, 100k, are all very real numbers to join as well as some big annual dues. They had their cake and ate it too for as long as possible before the owners walked away and locked the place up after losing money month after month.
  • The course is zoned as recreational, you cant build houses on it, and cant make it a RV park. I think a high end RV resort would be cool but the residents who paid a premium to live in a golf course community didnt see it that way and they won in court over it, and the course was hacked up to make room for the RV park, which led to the course being shut down a few years ago as well. You can only have golf course on the land or let it go back to natural desert. My comment in one of the recent meetings was so if its zoned as recreational can we build a motocross track on the land? Not many thought that was all the funny.
  • There are quite a few people who live in here that are very well off, I mean very very well off, business owners, lawyers, CPA's and two that I know of that own golf courses elsewhere. So the money is there as is the brainpower to try and make it work.
  • Horizon Bank in Havasu holds the paper on the course and restaurant, its in there best interest to save the greens or else their chance of recouping any money on the loan is pointless without the greens, as MooreMoney mentioned, the greens are a shit ton of money if they go bad. Horizon is covering the watering costs to try and save their investment. Many of them are being watered but I know of several that are not. I walk the back 9 or front 9 just about every morning with my dog, there are several greens that are in bad shape. The fairways can go close to 6 months without water, the greens cant.
  • So that leaves the question of where do we go from here. I think the HOA buying the course is the best bet, and then bringing in a professional course management company like Troon and others to get the course back in good condition and then manage it correctly is the best route as well as market it. $4.8 million divided by 360 owners is $13,000 ish per owner. I am OK with that as long as they bring in professional company to run the course, the other route to raise the cash is to raise the HOA dues a bunch, I am OK with that as well. They are a little over $100 a month which in my opinion is a joke for a gated golf course community. They are proposing closer to $400 with almost half of it being redeemable at the restaurant if you choose to do so.
  • Bottom line its question of time.......if the course forecloses and BK is filed it will be tied up in legal BS for too long and the course wont be salvageable any more, so something has to be done pretty quick. The assets would be bought at pennies on the dollar but who would buy it? The course would be a total loss and you cant build homes on it.
  • Lastly there is the restaurant. I am talking with a successful restaurant owner in town who would love to take over the restaurant and bar but doesn't want anything to do with the course. The attraction is a bad ass view location, wedding and banquet facilities, pool side mixers, concerts, etc., there is huge potential if someone with some vision too it over and marketed it correctly, actually marketed it period. The restaurant had in my opinion some of the best rib eyes and prime ribs in town. If you asked 10 people if Havasu if they knew about the restaurant I would say half didnt know about it, and those that did thought it was a private members only place. The concept of separating the two assets is being looked at for this reason.
I feel bad for people like MooreMoney who live on the course, they have a eye sore to look at and it impacts property values, everyones not just the people on the course, but I would buy again in here today even with the current drama and with a dead course. We have flipped our last two homes in Havasu and with the real estate market being as crazy as it is the thought crossed our mind now that the pool is done. Stacy visited a few months back and discussed what we would list the house at, when she gave us the number we thought about flipping it. The number was big, nearly doubling our money in about a year and a half, but we said no. I know that number isnt realistic now, but we could still do pretty well if we sold it but we wont. We like it here and we are not going anywhere. My wife retires at then end of the month and we are going to become snowbirds, basically living in our motorhome and traveling and not being here for the summer, like the majority of homeowners here do. If all of the work going on behind the scenes goes bust and the course goes back into desert I will still like it here. Lots of wide open natural space, etc., but the course is important to us all and I hope it works out.
 
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badgas

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Feel bad for any land owners that lose $$ maybe a situation comes up where they make $$ 👍

For me, Everything I enjoy about Havasu is polar opposite of Golf and the CC lifestyle. I have been around luxury Golf clubs my entire life because my Dad has always belonged. Palm Desert, La Quinta, HB, LB, San Gabriel etc. It is a cool thing if you like it but SOO differnet from what makes Havasu a great place. Boating, Off roading, Fishing, Shooting, Mountain biking, hiking, kayak/paddle boarding etc. just a low key non pretentious lifestyle ....... well some boat owners might fit that profile but not the majority.

i'm curious why this project failed, Not enough golfers in Havasu ?
 

Boatymcboatface

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Like mentioned above greens and maintaining them are a big cost water being the most expensive depending on how they get it. If I ever bought a golf course 1st thing I’d ask is about the water! Labor isn’t to bad but gm/super take up a big chunk. If anyone on here buys it let me know I’d happily take on the role of GM/super. I’ve held every position on a golf course.

Also like mentioned above most management companies are selling and taking on more of a consultant type position this started happening about 8 or so years ago lots of people buying up courses some closing them and sitting on them and then getting them rezoned to build. Selling carbon credits seems to be the fastest way to accomplish that Like San Luis Rey in San Diego. You can also do it like they’re trying to do with Escondido CC and StoneRidge. I believe Escondido already past the 7yrs and his building now.
 

GOTTBoat

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I used to work with a gal and her and her husband bought and built early on in there. I heard all about the suits regarding the modification of the course for the RV park and other issues. I haven’t talked to her since she retired but for the long time residents living in there it’s been a long battle dealing with the owners of the golf course. Long term I hope this works out for property owners out there.
 

TCHB

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I know the owners of Lake Havasu Golf Club. They have put in $100,000 of dollars into infrastructure. water storage ponds full of silt that would get sucked into the irrigation system and plug up all the sprinklers/equipment. They pot in new pumps/cleaned the water storage ponds and modified pumping stations. ZThey are constantly fixing the main lines going along each fairway. zThey have also purchased a lot of new expensive maintenance equipment. I have to say Dan is a good guy and really wants to make his golf course a community golf course. Havasu has a problem with is recycled water for irrigation, high salt due to all the softness in town. That means you need more city water!
 

Ace in the Hole

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I know the owners of Lake Havasu Golf Club. They have put in $100,000 of dollars into infrastructure. water storage ponds full of silt that would get sucked into the irrigation system and plug up all the sprinklers/equipment. They pot in new pumps/cleaned the water storage ponds and modified pumping stations. ZThey are constantly fixing the main lines going along each fairway. zThey have also purchased a lot of new expensive maintenance equipment. I have to say Dan is a good guy and really wants to make his golf course a community golf course. Havasu has a problem with is recycled water for irrigation, high salt due to all the softness in town. That means you need more city water!

It would be nice to see the clubhouse replaced with something that would attract more people. I've been going there since I was a kid, and that was always an issue.

As far as the rest of the course...night and day difference. they are doing a good job.
 

hallett21

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My brother and I love playing at the refuge. Hope someone turns it around.


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EarpRider

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I know the owners of Lake Havasu Golf Club. They have put in $100,000 of dollars into infrastructure. water storage ponds full of silt that would get sucked into the irrigation system and plug up all the sprinklers/equipment. They pot in new pumps/cleaned the water storage ponds and modified pumping stations. ZThey are constantly fixing the main lines going along each fairway. zThey have also purchased a lot of new expensive maintenance equipment. I have to say Dan is a good guy and really wants to make his golf course a community golf course. Havasu has a problem with is recycled water for irrigation, high salt due to all the softness in town. That means you need more city water!
I live on the Lake Havasu Golf Club, I've only been here two years and in that short time they really have made the course look a lot nicer.
 

MooreMoney

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We never bought the lot for the golf course view. How the house and lot sit we are well above the fairways so we don’t see the course much. We have a partial lake view and city/Mountain View. We bought the lot to put a huge garage in and long driveway. I hope the course works out but it it goes desert I don’t see it affecting me much.


As a relatively new resident, about a year and half, here is my take on everything that is going on......

  • We are not golfers, we didnt buy in the Refuge because of the golf course, we bought because we fell in love with the house, the gated neighborhood with security rolling around (if you want to call it that but the trucks do say security on them), and the views from our house are amazing, and we stole the house way below market. The realtor listing the house was clueless, it wasnt listed correctly in the MLS, the RV garage wasnt mentioned and the house technically has 5 bedrooms not 3 as listed and Stacy uncovered the place and we jumped on it. The homeowners husband had died and she didnt need a 4100 square foot house by herself. We dont live on the course, its nice to have the course but it wasn't what sold us on living here.
  • The neighborhood did not end up like the founding fathers thought it would........there are more weekend boaters living in here than golfers. There are 360 homesites, 237 are built on, but there are only 60 full time residents. The balance are snowbirds and weekend boaters just like any where else in Havasu. So you dont have 237 hard core golfers supporting the course or the restaurant / bar, or better yet 360 golfer residents supporting the course / bar.
  • There is a core group of residents who used the course and frequented the bar and restaurant, but that number of people is too small to make the course or the restaurant a success. There was no marketing of either entity, but my observation is that many of the people liked it that way. They were living in basically a private country club that very few people knew was public course and knew that it was a public restaurant and bar. You cant have a private country club for HOA dues of a little over a $100 a month let alone no one time buy in price. Try joining a country club anywhere else, 50k, 100k, are all very real numbers to join as well as some big annual dues. They had their cake and ate it too for as long as possible before the owners walked away and locked the place up after losing money month after month.
  • The course is zoned as recreational, you cant build houses on it, and cant make it a RV park. I think a high end RV resort would be cool but the residents who paid a premium to live in a golf course community didnt see it that way and they won in court over it, and the course was hacked up to make room for the RV park, which led to the course being shut down a few years ago as well. You can only have golf course on the land or let it go back to natural desert. My comment in one of the recent meetings was so if its zoned as recreational can we build a motocross track on the land? Not many thought that was all the funny.
  • There are quite a few people who live in here that are very well off, I mean very very well off, business owners, lawyers, CPA's and two that I know of that own golf courses elsewhere. So the money is there as is the brainpower to try and make it work.
  • Horizon Bank in Havasu holds the paper on the course and restaurant, its in there best interest to save the greens or else their chance of recouping any money on the loan is pointless without the greens, as MooreMoney mentioned, the greens are a shit ton of money if they go bad. Horizon is covering the watering costs to try and save their investment. Many of them are being watered but I know of several that are not. I walk the back 9 or front 9 just about every morning with my dog, there are several greens that are in bad shape. The fairways can go close to 6 months without water, the greens cant.
  • So that leaves the question of where do we go from here. I think the HOA buying the course is the best bet, and then bringing in a professional course management company like Troon and others to get the course back in good condition and then manage it correctly is the best route as well as market it. $4.8 million divided by 360 owners is $13,000 ish per owner. I am OK with that as long as they bring in professional company to run the course, the other route to raise the cash is to raise the HOA dues a bunch, I am OK with that as well. They are a little over $100 a month which in my opinion is a joke for a gated golf course community. They are proposing closer to $400 with almost half of it being redeemable at the restaurant if you choose to do so.
  • Bottom line its question of time.......if the course forecloses and BK is filed it will be tied up in legal BS for too long and the course wont be salvageable any more, so something has to be done pretty quick. The assets would be bought at pennies on the dollar but who would buy it? The course would be a total loss and you cant build homes on it.
  • Lastly there is the restaurant. I am talking with a successful restaurant owner in town who would love to take over the restaurant and bar but doesn't want anything to do with the course. The attraction is a bad ass view location, wedding and banquet facilities, pool side mixers, concerts, etc., there is huge potential if someone with some vision too it over and marketed it correctly, actually marketed it period. The restaurant had in my opinion some of the best rib eyes and prime ribs in town. If you asked 10 people if Havasu if they knew about the restaurant I would say half didnt know about it, and those that did thought it was a private members only place. The concept of separating the two assets is being looked at for this reason.
I feel bad for people like MooreMoney who live on the course, they have a eye sore to look at and it impacts property values, everyones not just the people on the course, but I would buy again in here today even with the current drama and with a dead course. We have flipped our last two homes in Havasu and with the real estate market being as crazy as it is the thought crossed our mind now that the pool is done. Stacy visited a few months back and discussed what we would list the house at, when she gave us the number we thought about flipping it. The number was big, nearly doubling our money in about a year and a half, but we said no. I know that number isnt realistic now, but we could still do pretty well if we sold it but we wont. We like it here and we are not going anywhere. My wife retires at then end of the month and we are going to become snowbirds, basically living in our motorhome and traveling and not being here for the summer, like the majority of homeowners here do. If all of the work going on behind the scenes goes bust and the course goes back into desert I will still like it here. Lots of wide open natural space, etc., but the course is important to us all and I hope it works out.
 

Ziggy

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Why in the hell does a golf course cost so much. Its just grass that gets mowed and some pvc pipe hammered into the ground for a hole?


Seriously never could understand that.

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Lol, sounds like my wife when she expects me to complete a 5 day project she watched get finished during a one hour show.😄😂
 

Justfishing

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We had a case here in 2006. a group had a dozen courses across the country. Some were under preforming and the company went bankrupt and the local course was sold in the proceedings. The local course was bought by a developer who thought he could build homes and apartments.

Turns out there were ccr's that stated the course was required to stay as a gc. The new course owner started cutting trees and didnt water the course. The clubhouse was not maintained. The homeowners filed suit and the courts said it has to remain a gc or maintained as greenspace.. That was 15 years ago. To this day it has not been developed and has minimal maintenance. the course owner doesnt allow anyone on the land and goes after home owners that take dogs out there. Total waste of land.

I would find out what happens to the gc should it be shut down and sold. Based on what happened with the local course I think i would be proactive that a buyer understands what can be done with the course.


Are 20-30 year olds taking up golf? Is the sport growing
 

Ziggy

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We had a case here in 2006. a group had a dozen courses across the country. Some were under preforming and the company went bankrupt and the local course was sold in the proceedings. The local course was bought by a developer who thought he could build homes and apartments.

Turns out there were ccr's that stated the course was required to stay as a gc. The new course owner started cutting trees and didnt water the course. The clubhouse was not maintained. The homeowners filed suit and the courts said it has to remain a gc or maintained as greenspace.. That was 15 years ago. To this day it has not been developed and has minimal maintenance. the course owner doesnt allow anyone on the land and goes after home owners that take dogs out there. Total waste of land.

I would find out what happens to the gc should it be shut down and sold. Based on what happened with the local course I think i would be proactive that a buyer understands what can be done with the course.


Are 20-30 year olds taking up golf? Is the sport growing
Yes, there are a lot of young people golfing these day. Sometimes annoying as they tend to play music on their phone or Bluetooth speakers. I prefer the sound of hawks squawking overhead.😏
 

LHC Kirby

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Are 20-30 year olds taking up golf? Is the sport growing

Yes they are.... the big money problem from what I have heard - TAX LAWS - the good ol boys club of big business having memberships and business deals are few and far between.... IMO based on stuff I have read over the past couple of years.

Some of the youngings are playing their music a bit loud -AND NO I'M NOT TOO OLD - it's a golf course.....ssshhhh
 

Bigbore500r

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Golf carts would be another large investment.
We leased 100 from ezgo and I think we were right around $80 a month per cart for the basic RXZ model.

But even just the grounds crew isn’t cheap. Mechanic, chemicals for the greens, irrigation. You’d still have wear and tear on the course due to residents walking the course in the evenings.


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Did I just read that you can lease a brand new golf cart or $80 per month with fresh batteries? Lol
 

JayBreww

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Did I just read that you can lease a brand new golf cart or $80 per month with fresh batteries? Lol

I believe that was our contract, I’ve been out of the business for 7 years so can’t remember exactly. I’d say +/- $10.
I’m sure prices have gone up since then.
Our carts would only last about 3 years with batteries needing to get replaced around the 2 year mark.


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Bigbore500r

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Lol, only if you commit to leasing 50 of them for 6 years.

Just need 99 buddies to join lol

1631050443498.png
 

dspracing

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Did I just read that you can lease a brand new golf cart or $80 per month with fresh batteries? Lol

I would have to look at the budget again but I was pretty shocked at the annual cost that the refuge is paying for these carts.
 

TCHB

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There were quite a few people that got screwed on the lifetime membership program. You would pay the Refuge $25k and golf was unlimited golf for your lifetime. About a year into this deal they changed it and started charging a cart fee of $20. I know about 10 of the Refuge members switched to Lake Havasu Golf club and sued to get their money back. I came very close to signing up for the deal. Glad I stayed at LHGC.
 

TCHB

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Most Golf clubs are going with EZ Lithium carts which are more expensive but no battery maintenance and much quicker charging. If you have had a electric cart in the hot climate and use it everyday it is a pain to keep all the water levels up and keeping the acid off your garage floors.
 

teded

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It’s only a few votes away from an RV campground.


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