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The Refuge

badgas

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So what happens to the golf course ?

More homes ?

SXS track ?
 

SJP

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That is a bummer for owners there. I have only been to the restaurant once. It was nice.
 

Joker

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Sucks for the people that live in there who bought for the golf and convenience of not having to leave for food. I can’t imagine this will be good for property values with a dried up golf course.
It’s the risk the owners take when they themselves don’t own the course or club.
 

hallett21

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I love that course. Damn. Any chance someone picks it up?


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Hammer

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How does that work. Don’t the home owners pay the HOA to Maintain the community Including the golf course and restaurant? Does that mean the CC&R’s are just torn up?


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Hammer

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Sucks for the people that live in there who bought for the golf and convenience of not having to leave for food. I can’t imagine this will be good for property values with a dried up golf course.
It’s the risk the owners take when they themselves don’t own the course or club.

If I’m understanding you correctly, when you buy in the refuge you don’t own a piece of the course or the restaurant property ? It’s privately owned, but you pay HOA dues for access and maintenance?

This is going to hurt home values.

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Bobby V

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Sucks for the people that live in there who bought for the golf and convenience of not having to leave for food. I can’t imagine this will be good for property values with a dried up golf course.
It’s the risk the owners take when they themselves don’t own the course or club.
Yep. My buddy bought a lot there a few years ago And loves playing golf there. He just retired and is renting a house during the build. Prices for the build have tripled and now he is selling the lot.
 

stephenkatsea

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How does that work. Don’t the home owners pay the HOA to Maintain the community Including the golf course and restaurant? Does that mean the CC&R’s are just torn up?
Good question. I believe a Special Assessment, in order to keep the restaurant/club house open was recently passed to the home owners. The home owners told them to Pack Sand. Had to figure the course would soon follow. The Refuge seems to have had many difficulties, some unusual. In the middle of the course is a defunct RV park. Believe the HOA put a stop to that before it even opened. Hard to imagine Arnold Palmer was once involved with The Refuge.


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Joe mama

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Doesn’t Walt live here? I’m sure he can clear up some of the questions.
 

FishSniper

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I believe I saw it listed for sale the other day for in the 4.8 million range.
 

RiverDave

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It is for sale for 4.8 right now for the club and the golf course.. actually not a bad deal for what it is!

Someone told me they were trying to bk it so the HOA could purchase it and make it all under one roof. That whole deal up there was kinda weird how it was run with the chains across the parking lot etc
 
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Singleton

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How does that work. Don’t the home owners pay the HOA to Maintain the community Including the golf course and restaurant? Does that mean the CC&R’s are just torn up?


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Occurred in my dads golf course community. Homeowners had 2 options - bankrupt the club and property values go to shit. Option 2 - owners write a check and take over ownership and then hire a company to run it. A third option occurred in my dads community - a successful business owner who owned 3 houses in the community purchased the club for $10M and Troon now runs it. They allowed folks outside the gate to join the club and it has been the best thing for the community. Most were going to see a high 6 figure devalue in their homes if club went under. Due to changes it now low 6 figures for most. Community is focused around the club now more then ever.
 
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Activated

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Feel like we dodged a bullet. Made an offer on a lot, the owner countered and we then decided to rescind our offer.

We were short on a cash offer and didn’t want to finance. Felt like we were scrambling a bit to make it happen and that never results in good things. Lol…and then this happens.

Having said that, I still think it’s the best neighborhood in Havasu and we still have it at the top of our list of retirement locations. Maybe we can get a deal at some point and pay cash. 🤷‍♂️
 

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I monitor one of the comerical RE page/sites for an eventual storage unit purchase and saw this earlier today.

 

satellitemike

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A lot of things have happened in the past few weeks there.
First, we bought a lot there, maybe at the wrong time? I feel there is too much $$$ invested there with the current home owners to let it go to shit.
Second, the POA/HOA has been working on options for well over a year.
1 Is the POA/HOA buy it and manage it
2 Is the POA/HOA buy it and hire a professional golf management team to run day to day operations.
3 The Refuge golf CC is sold by current owners and new owners come in and take a shot at making it work.
4 Let the current owners default on the loan and then hopefully buy it at largely reduced price but if that happens the course will be in such disrepair it will be very costly to bring it back!
If the POA/HOA do end up buying it, the homeowners will end up seeing a large increase in the monthly dues!
Stuff seems to be changing daily and only time will tell what the outcome will be.
If anyone knows anything more please share what you know!!!
 

DWC

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Love the neighborhood and the course. Would have moved there had we started our search 30days earlier. (Couple places sold right before). The Vid was good for golf. Number of players is up big. Number of younger players is even bigger. If the right people run it things will be better than ever. They need to clean up the old RV pads between 1-2, clean up some of the transition areas and cut down some dead stuff.
 

Singleton

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A lot of things have happened in the past few weeks there.
First, we bought a lot there, maybe at the wrong time? I feel there is too much $$$ invested there with the current home owners to let it go to shit.
Second, the POA/HOA has been working on options for well over a year.
1 Is the POA/HOA buy it and manage it
2 Is the POA/HOA buy it and hire a professional golf management team to run day to day operations.
3 The Refuge golf CC is sold by current owners and new owners come in and take a shot at making it work.
4 Let the current owners default on the loan and then hopefully buy it at largely reduced price but if that happens the course will be in such disrepair it will be very costly to bring it back!
If the POA/HOA do end up buying it, the homeowners will end up seeing a large increase in the monthly dues!
Stuff seems to be changing daily and only time will tell what the outcome will be.
If anyone knows anything more please share what you know!!!

Option 2 (no matter who ends up buying it), allow Troon to bid on the operational activities. They saved the club in my dads community and we’re allowed to keep the Golden Beer in the club :)
 

2Driver

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I’ve seen this before where the course isn’t feasible to keep running. one where the course was let to die and one where the HOA bought and ran the course. The later cost each owner a $25k assessment and HOA dues for course access tripled.

One good piece of due diligence is to ask who runs the community course and what is the contract with the HOA and what is the financial status of the course. I mean look at the details just don’t take the realtors word for it.

In the one case, I had a golf course property as hard money loan collateral that I nearly ended up getting back. I didn’t think to investigate before doing the loan, but the HOA had a long standing contract with the golf course owner’s group to buy out the course at a specific date - which fell during the loan and during the period where It looked like I might be getting the property back. The numbers didnt work for me to take it over since it was in 2010. The borrower, with some creative financing from me, ended up selling the property and paying off the loan. The stuff you learn, at least it didn’t cost me to learn that lesson.
 
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EarpRider

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Is the actual golf course zoned as only a Golf Course?
 
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satellitemike

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Another revenue generating idea discussed by the POA was to sub out the dining facilities to a local restaurant and let them work their magic to get more peps in the gates!
I like the idea especially if it was to be a local brewery or something similar.
 

Singleton

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We’re looking at Wickenberg Ranch and the fee is 30k on top of the house to buy into the course

The buy in at my parents place was 100k on top of the house purchase if you wanted Golf + Club, 65k for just club (no golf). Monthly F&B was 1500 / month on top of that. when my dad purchased you had to live inside the gates to join. As more folks retired and corporations move (thus all the C level execs in the community moved), shit hit the fan quickly.
 
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Hammer

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If I lived in the refuge I would do everything in my power to keep that course maintained. You don’t want all that property to turn to shit.

Is it possible to pay the grounds crew and the water bill through the HOA temporarily?


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DWC

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The buy in at my parents place was 100k on top of the house purchase if you wanted Golf + Club, 65k for just club (no golf). Monthly F&B was 1500 / month on top of that of that. when my dad purchased you had to live inside the gates to join. As more folks retired and corporations move (thus all the C level execs in the community moved), shit hit the fan quickly.
The higher dollar clubs are tough to fund. I was a buyer in late 80’s, early 90’s. Played just a “little” free golf and attended a shit load of sporting events. Tax laws were changed in mid-90’s and it changed a shit load. Recent changes hurt corporate golf even more. The elite clubs with a ton of money don’t have an issue. The mid-level, private depending on member dues are tough.
 

185EZ

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I believe the main change was flipping #2 to a par 3 and adding RV parking? Poor decision IMO as a golfer and the fact the area is an eyesore. It’s a weird transition from 1 to 2 and then back to back par 3’s is strange.
Also adding pool and spa I believe ruins an Arnold Palmer signature GC.
Then add in a fugly eyesore of a tent.
The pond to water everything is almost dry and fairways are brown
It's a sad deal especially for the workers
 

530RL

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Developers add a golf course so that they can get a premium for lots.

They also understand most golf courses and clubhouses are liabilities once the lot premiums have been derived.
 

JayBreww

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If I lived in the refuge I would do everything in my power to keep that course maintained. You don’t want all that property to turn to shit.

Is it possible to pay the grounds crew and the water bill through the HOA temporarily?


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Thats a lot of money per month. Superintendent and 6 ground crews aren’t cheap. Might as well throw in a few proshop guys and combine a superintended with general manager role and you could reopen the course to public play.


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Hammer

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Thats a lot of money per month. Superintendent and 6 ground crews aren’t cheap. Might as well throw in a few proshop guys and combine a superintended with general manager role and you could reopen the course to public play.


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Is that an option? Could you lease it from the owners?

Nothing good is going to come from letting the golf course turn into an eyesore for the people that own property there. I don’t see an investment company coming in there and rehabilitating the course to make it usable again. You would be better of trying to turn it into lots to be sold to builders I would think?


Really unfortunate, I went to a wedding and thought it was a beautiful place.



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JayBreww

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Is that an option? Could you lease it from the owners?

Nothing good is going to come from letting the golf course turn into an eyesore for the people that own property there. I don’t see an investment company coming in there and rehabilitating the course to make it usable again. You would be better of trying to turn it into lots to be sold to builders I would think?


Really unfortunate, I went to a wedding and thought it was a beautiful place.



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Golf carts would be another large investment.
We leased 100 from ezgo and I think we were right around $80 a month per cart for the basic RXZ model.

But even just the grounds crew isn’t cheap. Mechanic, chemicals for the greens, irrigation. You’d still have wear and tear on the course due to residents walking the course in the evenings.


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calkid

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I have no skin in this game but have seen this scenario play out before. The first thing I would want to know is if there are water rights involved. We are facing another drought and it could be that those (if any) water rights, might be worth much more on the annual open market then watering your grass. If there are water rights involved the owners may have transferred them to second corporation, and they wouldn't be a part of the CC sale. If the water is being purchased from the City or County would the HOA get the same long term rate that the Developer originally negotiated. Buying a broke CC without securing an "agricultural" or cheaper water rate may not be the best idea. Again, I have no skin in this game and maybe the City already supplies Reclaimed Water to the Refuge.
 

Singleton

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Is that an option? Could you lease it from the owners?

Nothing good is going to come from letting the golf course turn into an eyesore for the people that own property there. I don’t see an investment company coming in there and rehabilitating the course to make it usable again. You would be better of trying to turn it into lots to be sold to builders I would think?


Really unfortunate, I went to a wedding and thought it was a beautiful place.



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Once for sale, options get limited. If I was on the HOA Board, I would be reading the bylaws and contact with the club. My dads HOA had the obligation to purchase the club if it ever went BK. Since every COA was also in the HOA and the HOA had the obligation, things got ugly. HOA members wanted nothing to do with the club, yet if they refused the assessment to purchase, the HOA could place a lien on the HOA members house to collect. My dad was the CFO of both the HOA and Club OA and when it got ugly, he laid out the options very clearly. Over 60% of the HOA had no idea the HOA had that obligation to purchase. They only woke up after an external valuation company was hired and folks realized an additional devaluation of their homes was at risk if the club closed operations. When you $3M house is only going to be worth $2M if the private Jack Nicklaus Golf Course closes, people wake up. The club got in trouble when it took loans out against the property value to repair course infrastructure, when IL property values went down, the loans got called. At that time, my dad took over as CFO and the guy who ended up purchasing the club took over as CEO. The past board was sued by the HOA. HOA won and seized past club board member houses, since fraud was found. I had the joy of doing that forensic fraud audit on the club board (they did some shady shit, that should of been voted on by all owners, yet it was not).

IMO, the best option for the Refuge is for the HOA to buy it or 1 homeowner buys it and turns operations over to a mgmt company (Troon, AmericanGolf, ClubCorip, etc).
 

spectra3279

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Why in the hell does a golf course cost so much. Its just grass that gets mowed and some pvc pipe hammered into the ground for a hole?


Seriously never could understand that.

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LHC Kirby

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Why in the hell does a golf course cost so much. Its just grass that gets mowed and some pvc pipe hammered into the ground for a hole?


Seriously never could understand that.

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chemicals for the grass... fertilizer, rodent control, pesticides.
Golf carts
So much other stuff
 

Singleton

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Why in the hell does a golf course cost so much. Its just grass that gets mowed and some pvc pipe hammered into the ground for a hole?


Seriously never could understand that.

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Between ground keeper and his crew, then club pro and others working in the back office and restaurant, I bet they have over 500k in salary expenses a year.
 

JFMFG

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Thats a lot of money per month. Superintendent and 6 ground crews aren’t cheap. Might as well throw in a few proshop guys and combine a superintended with general manager role and you could reopen the course to public play.


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Exactly
 

River918

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We were in escrow a few months ago on a lot down from MaGoo's place and got cold feet before pulling out of the deal. After seeing this Q&A sheet last week, I'm glad we did. If the HOA fees go up as much as they are looking at it could get pretty expensive.....


The Refuge Community Association Revised FAQ's & Answers
 
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JayBreww

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Between ground keeper and his crew, then club pro and others working in the back office and restaurant, I bet they have over 500k in salary expenses a year.

At a course like the refuge I would agree.
Between the super and GM it’s probably 200.
Throw in 6 grounds keepers and 5 pro shop assistants, yore around there.


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TCHB

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It is for sale for 4.8 right now for the club and the golf course.. actually not a bad deal for what it is!

Someone told me they were trying to bk it so the HOA could purchase it and make it all under one roof. That whole deal up there was kinda weird how it was run with the chains across the parking lot etc
This place has been in financial free fall for years. The coarse itself has also been going down hill every time I play there. The hole thing is not good for the home owners.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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Why in the hell does a golf course cost so much. Its just grass that gets mowed and some pvc pipe hammered into the ground for a hole?


Seriously never could understand that.

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Have a look at the “Professionals ripping people off thread :)
 
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530RL

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Figure that course uses about 450 to 500 acre feet of water per year.

Last time I dealt with it the cost was about 1000 per acre foot of reclaimed water, 1,650 for untreated water and 2,000 for potable water.

Private courses don’t run that many rounds per year so it gets real expensive for labor, winter grass overseed and water before a penny is paid for the course or the annual capital expenditures for equipment and irrigation maintenance.

There is a reason why Troon and many other companies have migrated to a bigger focus on fee based management model versus an ownership model.
 

TCHB

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Today at Reflection Bay. Refuge not even close but charges about the same.
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