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TRI TOONS, 3 OR 4 BLADE PROP TRUTH AND FACTS....

throttle

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good stuff guys... I have been a little slower than expected getting to my 20 hour service and break in period. work and other vacays have interfered with my lake time (problems right?). I have really enjoyed the simplicity of the new toon and the merc400r. I have pushed her thru some rpm ranges and before temps recently warmed up I think I was seeing 62mph at 6500rpm with a 14.5x17p merc Enertia prop (2 of us on board with 50 gallons of gas and a cooler:) ). I will probably wait until fall to make any changes, not sure if I just change out a prop or go straight to the jack plate (not sure if I care or need to be faster), but maybe if conditions warranted. Easier to just keep it simple these days.
 

2FORCEFULL

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Just got back from mead....works great so far....topped out at 5500 rpms, so prop is still a little big,.. but, all round ...works great..jumps on plane… and cruises nice...40 mph is effort less.....gph is nice.. goes over 50 mph, so pretty close.... the raising of the motor seemed to help the hole shot... I went up 2 holes,.. and could have gone up one more and it would still work...gets right up at 2500 rpms.....
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2FORCEFULL

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good stuff guys... I have been a little slower than expected getting to my 20 hour service and break in period. work and other vacays have interfered with my lake time (problems right?). I have really enjoyed the simplicity of the new toon and the merc400r. I have pushed her thru some rpm ranges and before temps recently warmed up I think I was seeing 62mph at 6500rpm with a 14.5x17p merc Enertia prop (2 of us on board with 50 gallons of gas and a cooler:) ). I will probably wait until fall to make any changes, not sure if I just change out a prop or go straight to the jack plate (not sure if I care or need to be faster), but maybe if conditions warranted. Easier to just keep it simple these days.
I have a 17p and 19p 4 blade props if you wanna try so different ones..
 

2FORCEFULL

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There's no dougbt there is a lot going on with todays toons...and if you can pick up close to 10 mph and cruise 5 or 6 mph at the same rpms... worth the change to me....of coarse… prop and tune your toon to the desired usage….for me, cruising @ 40 mph with the lowest rpm and fuel usage.... and to be able top out over 50 mph, all at $59,999 … no brainer...you can buy two for 120k.... how much better could it get?????…..that's 2 motors, over 50' of trailers with four axels, and 48' of pontoon.....buying one 27' toon with 2 motors for 170k..... some ones making a ton off the deal....
 

Lavey29

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The dealer thought I was crazy for wanting to raise my motor. His attitude was “it’s a pontoon, who cares?”

When I bought my Skater, I removed the motors, put on jack plates and installed external pickups. The boat went from running 109 mph to 117 mph. Just a setup change gained 8 mph.

I am with 2FF. A boat should run to it’s potential. It does not matter if it’s a pontoon or a 100 mph performance boat.


I totally agree with the concept of running to its potential but shouldn't these manufacturers and dealers already know the optimal set ups based on the their own testing and the volume of boats they work with? I look at Throttle s post and he has the identical prop as mine but I'm running a 350 on a slightly larger toon versus his 400R. Seems like he should have more pitch then me. For the amount of money we pay for boats we should be getting optimal set ups right out the door.
 

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according to honda…. the water intake needs to be below the bottom of the boat... that being said... yours is completely above the water line.... do you notice high motor heat if run on pin for longer times??/? I know you said you had to change the water intake grates.... but ,did that eliminate the over heat problems???.... I know for fact that Hondas run at a high heat range...210 degrees......wouldn't take much to over heat one...
It has never overheated and I have good water pressure on both engines. I pulled both engines off and reset them to the level you see.
 

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@2FORCEFULL

Thanks for all the sharing of knowledge and testing. It will be helpful to the rest of us toon guys. I’ve played with mine a little on engine height which helped quite a bit. I need to try a few more props yet, especially 4 blades.

I have a Mercury labbed Rev 4 19p if anyone wants to try or buy. It’s to much for my Verado 250.

Cruise speed was phenomenal, 1000 rpm less a 35mp but I can’t pull it on the top.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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PlanB

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I totally agree with the concept of running to its potential but shouldn't these manufacturers and dealers already know the optimal set ups based on the their own testing and the volume of boats they work with? I look at Throttle s post and he has the identical prop as mine but I'm running a 350 on a slightly larger toon versus his 400R. Seems like he should have more pitch then me. For the amount of money we pay for boats we should be getting optimal set ups right out the door.

In my experience most people that buy toons don’t care or don’t know any better. Most dealers just want to get them out the door, and they don’t care about performance. I bought my current toon in 2015, so maybe some dealers have gotten better with the spike in performance toon sales since then. I think it will take a while for the toon world to catch up when it comes to setup.
 

Lavey29

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In my experience most people that buy toons don’t care or don’t know any better. Most dealers just want to get them out the door, and they don’t care about performance. I bought my current toon in 2015, so maybe some dealers have gotten better with the spike in performance toon sales since then. I think it will take a while for the toon world to catch up when it comes to setup.

Well that would be unfortunate considering the amount of money even a toon cost these days. What's funny also is that these set ups are about as basic as it gets. The motors are turnkey easy maintenance. The engine mounts are simple bolt on. Basic electronics for gauges and helm. Looks like everything kind of measures off the center can and the lower unit so you would think dealers would easily know where to set the motor height and prop size depending on the size of the boat and engine.
 

TCHB

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according to honda…. the water intake needs to be below the bottom of the boat... that being said... yours is completely above the water line.... do you notice high motor heat if run on pin for longer times??/? I know you said you had to change the water intake grates.... but ,did that eliminate the over heat problems???.... I know for fact that Hondas run at a high heat range...210 degrees......wouldn't take much to over heat one...
Never overeats
Well that would be unfortunate considering the amount of money even a toon cost these days. What's funny also is that these set ups are about as basic as it gets. The motors are turnkey easy maintenance. The engine mounts are simple bolt on. Basic electronics for gauges and helm. Looks like everything kind of measures off the center can and the lower unit so you would think dealers would easily know where to set the motor height and prop size depending on the size of the boat and engine.
The problem is how they mount to the rear. Most mounts are not tall enough to set the engine up correctly. They tend to leave them low low.
 

2FORCEFULL

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Never overeats

The problem is how they mount to the rear. Most mounts are not tall enough to set the engine up correctly. They tend to leave them low low.
I think in your case,...20'' motors would have worked better.... with the weight of two motors... you will always draft deeper....your setup, moving up 4'' past the mounting holes ...but the same most likely would have caused too much ventilation on a single engine toon....probley, the best and only way to really know would be to go pro the engine running at speed...what is the top speed so far... and at what rpms.... most toons of today have GPH meters....what do they run???
 

fasttoons

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Well you obviously have a lot of boating knowledge and tenacity but shouldn't the dealers and manufacturers of various toon models already have the set up guidelines for different engine packages ? I mean they sell 1000's of toons each year. They should know which prop works best with which motor and which hole to mount the motor. I know other variables come into play like temp and elevation along with typical boat load. Basically what I'm asking is why isn"t the dealers set up as close to optimal as it could be right from the start? I know there was also a previous poster in the thread who found nice performance increase by adjusting the motor height so obviously his set up from the dealer was not optimal either. Seems like you are doing a lot of testing work that should already be well known to those who manufacture and sell tons as their business.
I felt the same way. I asked a manufacturer and the answer was "it's the dealer's responsibility". If I owned the business I would be running on going tests.
 

2FORCEFULL

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In my case, sues Evinrude powered toon...I move the motor up 2 holes,.. while correctly set up from the dealer..cav plate was just above the bottom of the toon,.... her toon has the stepped notch at the rear.... you could eeally feel the motor drag when you let off the throttle... that and the huge amount of water spray when cruising...but like said.... the evolution of toons still have a long way to go...takes a huge amount of time and water testing... as of now there are a lot of toon shapes and sizes....problem is the guy that designs these changes just tells what it does ,.. but isn't hands on to handling ill effects that arise...same as toolers… they design it...step back and let riggers figure out how to make it work....by then... they have moved on..what it really takes is feed back,... and like said....if you don't know the difference... what difference does it make???
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2FORCEFULL

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I felt the same way. I asked a manufacturer and the answer was "it's the dealer's responsibility". If I owned the business I would be running on going tests.
the real problem....and the same answer always pops up...for every person that thinks sum ting wong….. there are thousands that are happy as is...I've been asked before..."why you fuc'n with that?"... I don't think it's set up right...."So you think your smarter that the engineers that designed and set it up????".... no, I just think I found a mistake in their set up as they don't get enough feed back to correct the situation …." so what do you think you'll gain?".... maybe run more efficient, and pick up a couple MPH!...."Sounds like a waist of time, I'd just leave it alone!"

So, what we really have..." REAL MEN OF GENIOUS "..... YOU GO MISTER PROP SELECTOR MAN!!!!! and when you are done...pop open a cold one….:D
 

2FORCEFULL

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Well that would be unfortunate considering the amount of money even a toon cost these days. What's funny also is that these set ups are about as basic as it gets. The motors are turnkey easy maintenance. The engine mounts are simple bolt on. Basic electronics for gauges and helm. Looks like everything kind of measures off the center can and the lower unit so you would think dealers would easily know where to set the motor height and prop size depending on the size of the boat and engine.
Not disagreeing with you but.....Toons are young as far as performance goes....who ever thought to stick a motor on a floating dock would probley dig himself out of his grave just to watch a now days toon go buy....kinda like what has happened performance wise to riding lawn mowers


 

2FORCEFULL

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So the plan next is to try a 17p 4 blade....and get closer to the WOT rpm of 6000 rpms...with the pics I took I will be able to see if there is any gain in GPH..and wot speed...and also rpm vs speed at cruise...my thought is that I will gain the needed 400 rpms, and though I will be turning more rpms to go 35... if the gph goes up I will consider it a gain...again... no why to know without water testing..I'll share the results to make prop selecting quicker and more easy for those with less time to do these kinda tests...

and as stated.... boat dealers prop boats to manufacture specs.....big question....did anyone actually do a test???

pretty sure that guy was on his phone watching monkeys fuc'n footballs
 

fasttoons

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The dealer thought I was crazy for wanting to raise my motor. His attitude was “it’s a pontoon, who cares?”

When I bought my Skater, I removed the motors, put on jack plates and installed external pickups. The boat went from running 109 mph to 117 mph. Just a setup change gained 8 mph.

I am with 2FF. A boat should run to it’s potential. It does not matter if it’s a pontoon or a 100 mph performance boat.
Your so right. Only a few dealers I know of have tested pontoons and set them up right. Most mount the motor flat on the transom and put on a 15-17" prop and that is the end of it.
 

satellitemike

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In my case, sues Evinrude powered toon...I move the motor up 2 holes,.. while correctly set up from the dealer..cav plate was just above the bottom of the toon,.... her toon has the stepped notch at the rear.... you could eeally feel the motor drag when you let off the throttle... that and the huge amount of water spray when cruising...but like said.... the evolution of toons still have a long way to go...takes a huge amount of time and water testing... as of now there are a lot of toon shapes and sizes....problem is the guy that designs these changes just tells what it does ,.. but isn't hands on to handling ill effects that arise...same as toolers… they design it...step back and let riggers figure out how to make it work....by then... they have moved on..what it really takes is feed back,... and like said....if you don't know the difference... what difference does it make??? View attachment 772154 View attachment 772155 View attachment 772156 View attachment 772157 View attachment 772158 View attachment 772159 View attachment 772160 View attachment 772163 View attachment 772164
Good morning Steve,
Looks like your center bunk on the right side looks to be canted in too far?
 

Lavey29

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Your so right. Only a few dealers I know of have tested pontoons and set them up right. Most mount the motor flat on the transom and put on a 15-17" prop and that is the end of it.

Well seems like my Avalon dealer in Madera is one of the few who takes the time to set them up right. I've been very happy with the performance and handling of the Avalon. It is a shame that some of these dealers dont really care about the overall customer experience and just slap them together after receiving them from the manufacturer. Guess they are only interested in making the sale or in some instances 2 sales.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAF6BAgGEAU&usg=AOvVaw0jey2LzrB6XsCaTG3e8uny
 
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2FORCEFULL

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Well seems like my Avalon dealer in Madera is one of the few who takes the time to set them up right. I've been very happy with the performance and handling of the Avalon. It is a shame that some of these dealers dont really care about the overall customer experience and just slap them together after receiving them from the manufacturer. Guess they are only interested in making the sale or in some instances 2 sales.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NwtwfJxaJXA&ved=2ahUKEwjh4uOS6KDjAhXtHjQIHauICxIQwqsBMAF6BAgGEAU&usg=AOvVaw0jey2LzrB6XsCaTG3e8uny
well, just we all know.... what are your numbers...?? I wanna know what right means/ is....
 

2FORCEFULL

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as with most everything I buy.... I tend to fine tune stuff...tweak a little power and economy ….while most everybody says their motor home rides great.... they don't find out they were wrong till they ride in a nice riding RV
 

Lavey29

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well, just we all know.... what are your numbers...?? I wanna know what right means/ is....

I've typically got the whole family on board and the dog along with all the water toys and beach stuff. I would probably have to wait until the off season and then on a cool March morning by myself, with the refrigerator empty, 1/4 tank of gas, I'd hit the button to close down the electric biminis, hit the other buttons and close down the electric lounges in the back making them more streamlined, then I'd hit the button and close down the electric wine rack, then strap on my lifeline vest and put the wind to my back and go balls to the wall and probably see 50 if the current was perfect with a little wind chop to air my cans just right while trimmed high to fly.
 

2FORCEFULL

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I've typically got the whole family on board and the dog along with all the water toys and beach stuff. I would probably have to wait until the off season and then on a cool March morning by myself, with the refrigerator empty, 1/4 tank of gas, I'd hit the button to close down the electric biminis, hit the other buttons and close down the electric lounges in the back making them more streamlined, then I'd hit the button and close down the electric wine rack, then strap on my lifeline vest and put the wind to my back and go balls to the wall and probably see 50 if the current was perfect with a little wind chop to air my cans just right while trimmed high to fly.
what motor???? and what toon do you have???
 

BHC Vic

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I’m more interested on how fast it goes with all that stuff in use :)
 

Lavey29

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I’m more interested on how fast it goes with all that stuff in use :)

Fully loaded with people, fuel and stuff it will nudge 48 with the double biminis up. Cruise speed mid 30s.
 

Lavey29

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I keep thinking of up grading the coach pontoon...I'm not dead yet and still have money left....why not.... right??? …:D

Guess it depends on your needs but I am more interested in your prop testing. You have jumped into this with great enthusiasm and confidence and I'm curious to see your final results. The other poster got some nice improvements in his toons performance with little time and expense just by adjusting his motor height. I still feel that the dealers should have this down to a science already and people buying brand new expensive toons should get optimal performance right from the start.
 

2FORCEFULL

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Guess it depends on your needs but I am more interested in your prop testing. You have jumped into this with great enthusiasm and confidence and I'm curious to see your final results. The other poster got some nice improvements in his toons performance with little time and expense just by adjusting his motor height. I still feel that the dealers should have this down to a science already and people buying brand new expensive toons should get optimal performance right from the start.
sues toon ran 54 mph on gps the first day out...with only a 250 hp motor... to me that's pretty spot on for right out of the box....jumps right on plane... cruises nice.... so not much bad to say for a havasu set up.... but.... running at mead motors loose power , though it still did good.... I felt there was more on the table....and still think it would pull a 19p in havasu..so reality is this.... it was set up pretty damn close for general boating, that and if loaded to max, the raise motor might not work as good.... but we mostly boat with just us two... and occasional another couple...so what I'm doing is more of a personal fine tune...I took the 19p off, and gonna try a 4 blade 17p tommorow

my thought is it gonna over rev,... even at mead...but,.. that's the cushion you would need to run it full load..I also have an 18p 4 blade ordered.…. one of the things I forgot when using gps speed.... we were going down river , not sure what that would add.... but i'm thinking 3 mph, or maybe 4... or maybe less????
 

Lavey29

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Yes I would think the flowing current adds a little top speed. Are you still in a 2 hole raised position for this round of testing?
 

2FORCEFULL

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so I went out to mead today...first I wanna talk about motor height.... it's my under standing to raise the motor to where the cav plate is just above water flow line, as said, wifes toon has a notched center 27'' toon...I raised the drive up 2 holes, but still think it can go up.... but afraid of what happens when there is a load in the boat.... kinda like a cat with a high X....top speed is not as important as being able to plane with a load....here's a pic of it running 25 mph on plane....
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2FORCEFULL

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from what I see , the motor needs to come up more.....the jack plate is sounding real good for this toon...with being able to trim this high,drive is too low

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satellitemike

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So Steve what is the best MPG cruise speed?
Thanks for the info BTW!
 

FlyByWire

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I will probably wait until fall to make any changes, not sure if I just change out a prop or go straight to the jack plate (not sure if I care or need to be faster), but maybe if conditions warranted. Easier to just keep it simple these days.

Double check your warranty, I’ve got a lifetime warranty from the deck down, which is instantly void the second I put a jack plate on the boat. [emoji15][emoji15]
 

FlyByWire

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I have a 17p and 19p 4 blade props if you wanna try so different ones..

If you’re in town sometime soon I’d really like to take you up on the 17p 4 blade sometime. I’m really thinking that’s where this beast needs to be.

What was weird to me is that the Avalon dealer runs 4 blades on all his bigger toons, and here I am with a 16p 3 blade on a 400. I don’t think much time was put into the prop choice [emoji2371][emoji2371]

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2FORCEFULL

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If you’re in town sometime soon I’d really like to take you up on the 17p 4 blade sometime. I’m really thinking that’s where this beast needs to be.

What was weird to me is that the Avalon dealer runs 4 blades on all his bigger toons, and here I am with a 16p 3 blade on a 400. I don’t think much time was put into the prop choice [emoji2371][emoji2371]

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I gonna go way out on the limb here,..and probley get bruised up pretty bad when I drop like a ripe apple...but that is a total wrong prop on that boat..the tube size is too small......I think....

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2FORCEFULL

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If you’re in town sometime soon I’d really like to take you up on the 17p 4 blade sometime. I’m really thinking that’s where this beast needs to be.

What was weird to me is that the Avalon dealer runs 4 blades on all his bigger toons, and here I am with a 16p 3 blade on a 400. I don’t think much time was put into the prop choice [emoji2371][emoji2371]

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what speeds are you seeing now???and are you talking havasu???
 

FlyByWire

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I gonna go way out on the limb here,..and probley get bruised up pretty bad when I drop like a ripe apple...but that is a total wrong prop on that boat..the tube size is too small......I think....

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That’s what I’ve been telling myself. WAY too easy to ride the rev limiter, I just don’t know which direction to go and don’t want to spend the coin on a bunch of different t props trying to get there. [emoji2359]
 

FlyByWire

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what speeds are you seeing now???and are you talking havasu???

Havasu, yes.

I’ll see 53-54 fully loaded, against the rev limiter. It’ll cruise easily at 40-45 but I’m at 6k and 20 GPH.
 

2FORCEFULL

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If you’re in town sometime soon I’d really like to take you up on the 17p 4 blade sometime. I’m really thinking that’s where this beast needs to be.

What was weird to me is that the Avalon dealer runs 4 blades on all his bigger toons, and here I am with a 16p 3 blade on a 400. I don’t think much time was put into the prop choice [emoji2371][emoji2371]

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some one please correct me if I'm wrong, but,... on out boards the exhaust runs through the prop,, with the tube too small the exhaust will come out over the top of the prop, that why the tube size has to match the gear case....correct????
 

2FORCEFULL

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That’s what I’ve been telling myself. WAY too easy to ride the rev limiter, I just don’t know which direction to go and don’t want to spend the coin on a bunch of different t props trying to get there. [emoji2359]
I got a pretty good selection that'll get you real close, if not spot on...I'll be there next week....you have a merc hub correct...
and which motor do you have???seems like on the Avalon I had I did over 60 with a 300 merc….
 

FlyByWire

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I got a pretty good selection that'll get you real close, if not spot on...I'll be there next week....you have a merc hub correct...
and which motor do you have???seems like on the Avalon I had I did over 60 with a 300 merc….

Nice. I’d appreciate it for sure!!

This is 400 Verado (non R) yes. It’s not a light toon by any means, but I know there’s more oomph in there somewhere.
 

2FORCEFULL

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I would think that the small tube would act like a stall converter on a drag car...or vent hole in a prop...
 

2FORCEFULL

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look at the prop tube size....


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and compare to the prop you have....
 

2FORCEFULL

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The 400 Verado is based on the 350 Verado, which debuted four years ago. It features the proven 2.6L inline-six powerhead with a dual overhead cam and 24 valves. It also has a supercharger to boost power and efficiency. Paired with a 5.44-inch 1.75 HD gear case (meaning it has a gear ratio of 1.75-to-1), the 400 Verado is designed for a max rpm of between 6,200 and 6,800, depending on installation and prop selection.
 
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