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V drive Hydraulic Steering

Discussion in 'V-Drives' started by farmo83, Feb 1, 2010.

  1. farmo83

    farmo83 Well-Known Member

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    If their is another thread on this topic then gladly steer me in the right direction but I was wondering how much it would cost to convert a Vdrive from cable steering to hydraulic?
     
  2. lebel409

    lebel409 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure it's been tried but why? Properly adjusted cables are simple and positive.

    I can see Hydraulic on a stern drive..you are moving the propulsion and the steering. On a V-drive it's only the rudder.
     
  3. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    Hydraulic steering on a v-drive is the shit, We put it on the last 22 day cruiser we built, Dunsmore put it on Herbst's 21, and Lynch's 21 also has it....

    The stuff is amazing, really eliminates arm fatigue and let's you worry more about driving the boat rather than holding the wheel.

    The only thing is it's pretty expensive to do it right, Char-Lynn powered steering is the only way to go, so between the pump, cooler, hoses, helm, collumn, etc you have spent near $2k in parts alone, plus rams, if you want a balanced system (even # of turns left to right) you need to run dual rams, or a balanced single ram (the kind where the shaft protrudes out both sides....

    You are looking at $3,500 to $4,000 for the setup.

    Since Teleflex bought Morse out and stopped making the command 2 rotary steering (the red cable type) almost every new v-drive v-bottom is going to full hydraulic, look at all new Schiadas, Danny's DCM etc, there is just no other option for good strong AND comfortable steering, Calgo works but it is always under constant wheel tension, you have to drive with both hands at all times, it's one thing to have this type of feel on a flat bottom but on a pleasure boat it sucks. It's a shame that they stopped producing the the Command 2 cable steering because it was far superior, had very good wheel feel, and cost about 1/6th what full hydraulic does....
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
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  4. River Lynchmob

    River Lynchmob What can I do to u for u?

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    I agree with Racey...it is unreal...hands down easier to drive then cables and a tits set up
     
  5. RiverDave

    RiverDave In it to win it

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    Couldn't you use the hydraulics and power steering off a Merc sterndrive in a v-drive application? Seems like the parts would be considerably cheaper then.. (Like 500 bucks total?)

    RD
     
  6. lebel409

    lebel409 Well-Known Member

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    I see your points.

    Maybe take it a step further...add the hydraulic down pedal into the deal...one pump, just a couple more valves...
     
  7. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    if you want a sloppy single cable setup, and a crummy looking, cumbersome, and nearly wider than the stringers cable actuated merc inboard steering system sure....

    if you want real hydraulic steering the Char-Lynn helm costs $500 alone.

    Edit: no comparison in the feel between a full hydraulic and a cable assist setup.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2010
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  8. SuperDave013

    SuperDave013 Well-Known Member

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    why use that Char-Lynn helm? Couldn't you just use a Howe control valve and mount it down on the bulkhead? Then a guy could keep his old skool steering post.
     
  9. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    You can, or you can mount the charlynn on the bulkhead, We have adapted more than one long column systems to charlynn and kept it all up at the dash, and the look of the column unchanged, i prefer to have the helm at the dash, it opens up a lot of room under the deck by getting that long post out of the way.
     
  10. Sleek Freak

    Sleek Freak Well-Known Member

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    you guys know the Charlynn steering valves come stock on alot or equipment, like forklifts etc. Charlynn makes different length bodys and you can change the oil orfice to control the volume to any size rams. you can buy the steering valve and rams cheap but may want a check valve to control the hydrolic drift. most charlynn valves are 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. you can buy alloy rams ( light weight ones ) at alot of surplus yards and they look way cool. we ran this stuff on monster trucks for years. for the do-it your selfers and save a few $$$
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2010
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  11. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    Junk the cable steering and go Hyd, far better.
    Over 50mph you need to run a two cable deal. Well you don't need to Just like you don't need to have shoe's on in Havasu when its 115deg,
    But you mite get burned.
    Hyd,steering works so well, I don't know what a lot of these guy's ran on there deal but I can tell you one thing you do not need or have to run pwr,hyd, steering, No need at all. My Daughter when she was 12 had no prob, with turning my Cloe 20 V-Drive. And far as being very Expensive...... not at all.
    If you still want it let me know and I will get you the info.
    Here's a pic you can kinda see the steering ram, I can take a pic of the pump under the dash if you need.
    I'm trying to find the name and the paper work where I got it from.
     

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  12. RiverDave

    RiverDave In it to win it

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    Welcome to the board J540!!!

    Place is gettin better all the time! :)

    RD
     
  13. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    No you don't need to run hyrdraulic steering, Rudder design plays a huge role in how drivable a boat with cable steering is. Plays zero role with hydraulic, all you have to worry about is the rudders actual performance in regard to how the boat handles, not how it feels at the wheel..... Since you haven't been able to get the good Morse command 2 rotary cable steering for about 10 years now you really only have a couple options....

    -Full cable, bicycle chain and pulley steering (sucks imo, takes up tons of room)
    -Calgo cable (Not a big fan of this stuff either really)
    Solid linkage gear steering (Works awesome, but expensive and takes up lots of room through the boat, with complex rods and linkages)
    -Passive hydraulic, not powered (either very hard to turn, or easy to turn but 12 spins on the wheel lock to lock)
    -Full Hydraulic (Butter, but $$$$$, lots of plumbing, cooler, filter, pump, helm)

    Welcome to the boards BTW, not too often that you see a V-Drive open bow, especially with some power, that's a nice single balanced ram setup too :cool:
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  14. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    It would'nt let me post for some reason. So how you been Dave.
     
  15. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    What???? I'm lost.
     
  16. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    If you are referring to the Injector, Having two of the openings plugged, it's far from that. and yes the driveability is fine, well fine enough for my kids to wakeboard an tube behind it.
    But it use to run 115 on any given day, KEY word used to, Till I stripped it down. well kinda. I can still get it going if needed.
    Dave has seen it around a few times.
     
  17. Hallett

    Hallett Well-Known Member

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    One bad ass boat i have seen this boat run in havasu it's all business sounds killer too. welcome Jay.:thumbsup
     
  18. AZLineman

    AZLineman Well-Known Member

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    Jay?????? Looks like John to me. Good to see you here :champagne:
     
  19. nelson#109

    nelson#109 layed in mexico

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    j540... any more details on your hydraulic steering would be great. id like to change from calgo to hydraulic on my 21 eliminator monaco v-drive. the calgo is clean and works well, its just harder to turn to the left than the right. does the hydraulic eliminate the old hard left on a v-drive?
     
  20. 78 Continental

    78 Continental Well-Known Member

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    Yes more details here too. Have been looking into hydraulic steering on our cruiser.
     
  21. RiverDave

    RiverDave In it to win it

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    Been good.. Why did you tear down the boat?

    RD
     
  22. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry so long to reply, I don't go on a lot. Not sure what Sys, you have driven on the passive steering, Far as being hard or 12 turns, Not mine, it was 2 1/2 lock to lock. And my kids had no prob, with the turning and they were 8 an 9 at the time. Solid link, good in Hydro's, and is kinda Complex.
    I could not believe how well the sys, I put in worked. and took up very little room I'm trying to find all my paper work on it, But i will go out and take a pic of the helm in a bit.

    Hey dave
    The interior was old and a few other things.
    5years ago I was just going by the sandbar slow of course, :D And I had a lifter come apart.
    Like a dummy I had my foot on the gas when I was starting it that day and didn't realize it, And when it started it rev-ed to the moon before I could get my foot off it, And the cam slap the lifters hard and it was all downhill from there,
    So I put new ones in but I'm just not happy with them. So I'm going to machine the block for these bigger lifters that my friend has, Bigger in dia, and in $$$$.
    Just dont want to have that happen again, I was real lucky this time so $1200 in lifters is better than 30K or more for a new motor.

    Well I'll try to get a pic, up of the steering in a few,
     
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  23. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    I'd like to know what helm and system you are using, because both the Hynautic, and the Teleflex capilano system i have used, are not even remotely comparable to full power (obviously), in fact they have way more wheel resistance than any other type of steering i have ever used, including cable, the only thing that makes them better than cable is that they are a one way system (the rudder can't turn the wheel), AKA you can let go of the wheel or relax your grip while driving straight, which helps a lot with arm fatigue, but in most cases i have come across even cable steering takes less force (or has less friction is what i'm saying) when actually turning the wheel (if this makes sense). I'm using 'very hard' to turn as a comparative term when comparing them to all other steering systems. A kid can drive them no problem, it's not like it takes hulk hogan to turn the wheel, i've just never came across one that was silky smooth along with being ultra responsive and easy to turn, which I have many times with cable steering. ;)


    The capilano helms have a knob that you can adjust the steering speed with, and when you turn it to fastest setting they get WAY harder to turn than when it's at the softest settings with the most turns lock to lock


    EDIT: BTW i think i saw your boat in the River Rats II DVD, looks like it runs pretty good :thumbsup

    EDIT: Looks like a balanced(shaft comes through both sides of the cylinder) ram on your steering. When running a single ram setup if you don't use a balanced ram the steering will respond considerably faster in one direction than in the other. IE when the rudder is straight it may be 3/4 of a turn to go to right lock, and 1.5 turns to go to left lock. This is because without a balanced ram it takes more volume of fluid to fill the back of the cylinder than the front, because you have to subtract the volume that the shaft occupies on the front side.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  24. j540

    j540 Well-Known Member

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    Ok I finely looked at it. And Racey you are right,
    It is The Teleflex Capilano PN# HH5275 num,1275.
    But far as being hard or "not even remotely comparable to full power"
    A bravo 1 drive isn't that much easier than mine, and that's full pwr, steering. But yes it is that "silky smooth" feel. I do know what you mean.

    I do know if you skimp and use small,dia line going to the ram it will be a lot harder, Like #4 or 6 instead of #8or -10

    I don't know about you but at High mph, I like it to have some stiffness to it. (WOW That didn't sound right) HAHAHA. Nothing like hitting some rough water and have your wheel turn to easy, That's a good way to take a bath.

    And yes I think cable steering takes a bit less force to turn, But been there done that with a push/pull sys, with one and a two cable deal.
    I just don't think that is the strongest way or the best way togo.
    But I totally understand what you are saying about the silky smooth feeling.

    But to be honest my arms don't get tired at all and I drive a lot, from Havasu all the way up river to needles all the time with a lot of playing on the way.

    Yes I here my boat is in that Video but the funny thing is I just switch over from my MSD 7AL to my 7AL-3 and of-course the purple and green wire were switched but I didn't check the timing like a dummy and just went out that day and said WOW its just not running rt, WTF, well they usually don't with 7deg, of timing instead of 30. HEY look my ex, is yellow. lol.
    Dont know what it is with MSD and some times having to switch the purple and green wire on some boxes,
     
  25. 500bbc

    500bbc Well-Known Member

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    ??????????

    You putting a new water pump in it?:p
     
  26. excelwelder

    excelwelder Well-Known Member

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    Just my 2cents,But just know if your running hyd steering that is NOT Full manual if you ever lose power you may not have any rudder control I used a full man. system it is easy to use and very tight (no slop)
     

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  27. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    You will have rudder control, it will just be hard to turn the wheel, char-lynn helms will push fluid without a pressure supply ;)
     
  28. wedge45

    wedge45 Well-Known Member

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    Juat to bump this post up....butt J540 is a DICK !:D:D:D wedge
     
  29. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    Hahahah stirring the pot huh :skull :bash: :D
     
  30. old man on the lake

    old man on the lake Well-Known Member

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    I would think the Out drive hyd steering company s could put together a system for much less than 3-4000.
     
  31. rivergames

    rivergames Well-Known Member

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    BUMP

    What is wrong with the calgo steering and how much does it cost. At the moment, I just cant justify dropping $3,500 on a full hydraulic system
     
  32. jstnoc

    jstnoc Well-Known Member

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    Shane what degree from center is the max you should turn the rudder? Trying to determine tiller arm length and balanced ram throw. Thanks, Mike
     
  33. AzGeo

    AzGeo Well-Known Member

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    my eyes are burning here ..........
     
  34. Outdrive1

    Outdrive1 Well-Known Member

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    Never having a boat of my own with hydraulic steering on an outboard until now. Here's what I will say. Yes racey is right as there is no input from the ram transferred back to the steering wheel. That's nice but you can buy a no feed back cable system now that will mimic that. Second. At speed it's a breeze to drive. You can take your hand off the wheel and never worry that the boat wont go straight. The effort to steer it is firm but it feels right.

    Where it's an issue is at idle when your docking. Holy shit your arms get a workout trying to turn hydraulic non power steering in a hurry from side to side. Then it sucks ass. I'm not sure a chick could dock my boat. Drive it down the river, no problem. Turn it in close quarters. No way.

    Just a thought. Mercruiser makes an electric pump, the maroon 24 Schiada that's been through a couple of members here has that system. I drove it a couple of times but didn't have enough time in it around a dock to see if it was better. Driving it was nice however but the steering almost seemed too easy. Idk. If it's a vdrive I would add a power-steering pump on the motor and just call it a day. You just have to get the right helm. If you get one that's too fast or too slow you're not gonna love it. That's going to make all the different in how the boat feels driving it.
     
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  35. jstnoc

    jstnoc Well-Known Member

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    Good to know what the pros and cons are for each system. After I posted the question I got a call from someone with a brand new cable for my dual cable rotary helm. Looks like I will stay dual cable for a couple more years.
     
  36. Outdrive1

    Outdrive1 Well-Known Member

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    Another thought. Talking to a buddy of mine who has had flatties said and vdrives told me he prefers the feel of dual cable. It's real so to speak. He's on the boards and raced NASCAR so he knows setups and what feels right to a driver. Hydraulic and assisted hydraulic take most of feel out of driving it he says. If that makes sense. On a big out board hydraulic is just way safer because there's prop torque and the motor has a lot of leverage. So with cables your holding the wheel with a death grip at high speed. Something a vdrive isn't going to do to you.
     
  37. RiverDave

    RiverDave In it to win it

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    Sounds like you may have the wrong ratio helm on your outboard. Is it a bunch of turns lock to lock? Is that what the problem is? Or is it like one turn and it's hard to actually move? You may have a restriction orifice inline somewhere as well to slow the movement?

    All the full hydrualic outboards I've driven have been smooth and easy.

    RD
     
  38. Nailhead

    Nailhead Well-Known Member

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    IMG_4392.JPG Bringing this back up since it's the most recent posting I can find. I'm going to be putting some sort of hydraulic steering in our 24' Campbell. I've seen Sea Star single ram kits installed that were clean. Then there is this kit from CPPerformance that I was thinking of trying.
    https://www.cpperformance.com/p-115...dual-bravo-or-single-bravo-with-dual-ram.aspx

    We are starting with a clean slate on our hull so looking for a clean setup that works great. Any other options? Do I buy piece by piece? What rams would I get if I went with charlynn set up?
     
  39. lenmann

    lenmann Well-Known Member

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    I was told, by a guy that rigs Schiada's for a living, that IMCO sells as close to a turn key set up as there is. Not sure what set up that is but it's worth giving IMCO Nevada a call.
     
  40. lenmann

    lenmann Well-Known Member

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    And, IIRC, @Racey is an IMCO dealer and has extensive insight in this area.
     
  41. Racey

    Racey Maxwell Smart-Ass

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    call ron at IMCO, usually an 8" stroke 5/8" rod single ram and their smallest CC helm is about ideal for a vdrive, it's about 4 turns lock to lock if i remember correctly, 1.5 turns in one direction and 2.5 in the other (this is because you are using a single ram that is unbalanced. You won't notice it when driving. If you want to have balanced steering you either need to use two rams, or a balanced ram (IMCO doesn't make those). As i've gotten older i tend to appreciate the simpler setups, and a single ram just makes for a much cleaner installation, less hoses, less bracketry, easier to clean and work on. And still many magnitudes stronger than a cable setup.

    702-294-3030 IMCO NV
     
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  42. Nailhead

    Nailhead Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'll give them a call. Cleaner and less clutter is a plus.
     
  43. SoCalZero

    SoCalZero Well-Known Member

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    Here is mine. IMG_1465.jpg
     
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  44. Nailhead

    Nailhead Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, that looks clean and easy. What helm do you have?
     
  45. SoCalZero

    SoCalZero Well-Known Member

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    IMG_4216.jpg
    That’s just hooked up to a manual hydraulic motor.
     
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  46. Nailhead

    Nailhead Well-Known Member

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    So no pump driven off the engine?
    That's kind of like the Seastar set ups.
     
  47. SoCalZero

    SoCalZero Well-Known Member

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    No pump. You are the pump. Similar to this. IMG_1468.jpg
     
  48. vdcruiser

    vdcruiser Well-Known Member

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    So how do you like and who is it made by ?
     
  49. SFV2RVR

    SFV2RVR Registered Parker Legend

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    I did a zeiger single balanced ram and a charlynn 55cc helm on my 21 Schiada. Also used a KRC power steering pump. Worked amazing!

    IMG_3536.jpg
    IMG_3202.jpg
    IMG_3222.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  50. Nailhead

    Nailhead Well-Known Member

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    IMG_4399.PNG
    That's what I'm after with the space in dealing with. Exhaust is below stringers so the single side mount will be difficult. I'll need to build a new rudder support anyways. Looks like that what Schiada has been going with these days. I found this from one of Daves tours.
     
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