V-Drive Rigging

[Allan D]

I wanted to reach out to those in the community in the know on rigging a V Drive, the right way? knowing there are a ton of variables when it comes to hull, horsepower etc. so I?d like to narrow it down to a Schiada 21 RC or possibly a Hallett Vector. Is there an approximate average amount of man hours or even a minimum one can expect to be spent on rigging? This would include all the appropriate mounts, brackets, cavitation plates, pedals. I know there?s a litany of things not mentioned like strainers and coolers but let?s assume the whole deal. Are we talking 500-600 plus man hours? There?s not many new boats being done this way anymore and seems like the amount of men with the knowledge and skill is also becoming a dying art. Any input is greatly appreciated, thank you all in advance for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Gelcoater]

Where's AZGEO?
There's an old guy who will have some approximates.

 

[Headless hula]

Where's AZGEO?
There's an old guy who will have some approximates.

I've been waiting to see who dove on this grenade. Lololol
..

I thought for sure itd turn into an "oil" thread.

I know nothing about v drives, please pardon my interruption, and now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[AzGeo]

Where's AZGEO?
There's an old guy who will have some approximates.

I saw these questions when they were in another post, and declined to respond, because there are many variables to what he is asking .

Do you want ?
Rigging of V-drive, steering, plates, motor, all machined and placed, but no powder coat or anodize ?

Do you want ?
All the above rigging, motor and trans install, after powder coat install, final on all mechanical systems, less wiring, dash/gauges, plumbing, floors, seating ?

Maybe just a ?
Turn key boat ?

There are also different levels of design-finish .

Artistic CNC, hand crafted-one off parts, rubber hoses, SS lines, Hard lines, chain and cable steering, power hydraulic, race car gearbox steering, etc ?

Usually a new hull will be quicker to set up and get together, just because it is '*a known piece', and because it will 'start clean, stay clean, and end up clean', which is always a faster way to work .

'* a known piece' . I'm working on a Hondo runner right now, and it has taken much longer than I had ever anticipated, for a few reasons . First, it has been repaired by 3 different glass shops, and rigged once before, and much differently than any Hondo I've ever seen . I'm working with many of the used parts from the original set up . The floors and stringers are 1/8", to 3/4" different from side to side, and the right floor is 5/8" higher than the left . Other than that, everything is just bitchen . It has been very tough to make it all 'level' and 'look good', while hiding all the miss-matched repairs . The floors and stringers are smooth and shiny, just not in the right places . It will look great and run 'straight as a string' when done .

I'm working by myself on a dolley, changing the bottom shape, lowering the shaft angle, and remounting the V-drive and motor have made this more work than starting from a new hull .

The owner has made a few minor changes, but is willing to wait for me to 'make it run and look good' . I have about 500 + - hours in it so far, and am very near 'tear down', 'slot and design milling', 'hand finishing all surfaces', 'sizing all the holes for powder coat', 'chamfer all stinger holes for epoxy', laying out wiring and plumbing .

This boat is all hard line plumbing, all components have hand made 'covers' so that no wiring will be visible, while easily serviced . This is not a regular kind of deal .

When I built my 19', 20', 22' V-drive cruisers, they normally took 5 months from the order to the delivery date, as the norm . I can see 1000 hours to build a nice V-drive cruiser, turn key .

The flat I'm doing right now is the end of the line for me doing 'outside work' . I have too many projects I want to work on, that have waited much too long on the back burner .

What kind of prices and time estimates have you gotten so far ?

Good luck .

 

[Headless hula]

Hey George,
Just a question, because I've never seen one in person, but do these types of boats usually have a "false floor" in them, or do they just glass over the "parquet" core? Do some not have any core? I read so many threads about them, look at the pictures, but I just don't get it. Are there that many different styles of construction?

This is a sincere question, and thanks in advance.

 

[AzGeo]

Often the owner/builder will rely on the 'depth of the hull, and stringer height' . Next the consideration is 'actual boat use' (race, play, family) .

Even if you bury the V-drive right on the bottom of the bilge, you have 13" to 15" of height to 'cover' , if you want a floor above the V-drive and bilges . Many have a higher removable floor over the V-drive, drive shaft cover and automatic trans .

Some will 'glass in floors' to help make the hull/deck structure stronger without 'over building' the fiberglass or bulkhead strengths . (thicker or more bulkheads) Still using a higher removable center piece .

Some 'build up thickness', with core mat, balsa, foam, plywood, seeking 'strength, flexibility, and light weight' . Some just use a little more glass and install more full stringers, others will then add the 3/4" glassed in floors with the same goals in mind . Builder's choices, builder's reputation .

This 20' boat has 4 full stringers, with the nose floor and side floors bonded to the stringers and glassed to the hull . The 'center removable floor' was about 5" higher, and had a small 'door' in it to check the shaft seal . YES, that is a 'ski locker' in front of the V-drive .

Wish I had pix of how it rides in the water, but lost them in my old computer .

Good handling and what I think are good slip numbers (for a fast V-drive) at 12% slip .

540, 8.71, pump gas (6 lbs), 1.29 gear, 16 pitch 3 blade, full seating, bow rider, XM stereo, tilt wheel, full billet swim step . 6000 RPMs (zero boost) = 102 MPH 6700 RPMs = 114 MPH

 

[78Southwind]

Super Sleeper. What do you have to do to the bottom to make what looks to be a Southwind/Smiley hull work as a V- Drive?

 

[AzGeo]

Do you know who has the molds now ?

You know the hull, it's a 'canoe shaped' bottom, with no rocker .

So after flipping one over three times, carving on the bottom, water testing over about a year period, it would be my pleasure to tell you everything in exchange for, what ? HA HA

I would need to 'find my notes' but I'll tell you all the important info, right down to the fact that with a 'bow rider' the motor/T-400 go 3/8" farther back, than the closed deck boats . (7 1/4 degree shaft angle, MAX 12" prop)

Whoever has the molds, should have a stainless insert for I/O's and O/B's, a narrower one for jets, and three ss pieces for V-drives, two side plates, center pad and a single aluminum part for the recessed strut, that should have come with the molds .

edit; There is way too much work/change to try and get a used hull and 'fix it' , for a V-drive .

Do you remember the Green 20' that Dave Stockton had rigged by a famous K-boat racer . It was in the Dana color brochure, (old style deck) with a nasty tunnel ram motor .

That boat would NOT RUN 70 MPH, and was set up all wrong . It was rigged like a flatbottom, and having a 'round keel' and no rear strakes, it rolled over to the side at about 68 MPH .

 

[AzGeo]

out in Billion Oaks Calif, last month .

20' closed deck, low hours, nice motor, but only a B&M 177 blower, 87 MPH at Castaic, 90 at the river .

He was asking $50K

 

[78Southwind]

Do you know who has the molds now ?

You know the hull, it's a 'canoe shaped' bottom, with no rocker .

So after flipping one over three times, carving on the bottom, water testing over about a year period, it would be my pleasure to tell you everything in exchange for, what ? HA HA

I would need to 'find my notes' but I'll tell you all the important info, right down to the fact that with a 'bow rider' the motor/T-400 go 3/8" farther back, than the closed deck boats . (7 1/4 degree shaft angle, MAX 12" prop)

Whoever has the molds, should have a stainless insert for I/O's and O/B's, a narrower one for jets, and three ss pieces for V-drives, two side plates, center pad and a single aluminum part for the recessed strut, that should have come with the molds .

edit; There is way too much work/change to try and get a used hull and 'fix it' , for a V-drive .

Do you remember the Green 20' that Dave Stockton had rigged by a famous K-boat racer . It was in the Dana color brochure, (old style deck) with a nasty tunnel ram motor .

That boat would NOT RUN 70 MPH, and was set up all wrong . It was rigged like a flatbottom, and having a 'round keel' and no rear strakes, it rolled over to the side at about 68 MPH .

Hack Job ...who I think lives in Havasu bought a hull from Dana and rigged it himself as a jet with help from his brother Flat Broke...here on the boards. That is the last new hull I have seen and that was around 2005.

I don't personally own a 20 I have an 18 jet and a 20 Spectra V Drive. Your 20 and the one you posted is the only Southwind's I have seen as V Drives so I was just curious what has to be done.

 

[AzGeo]

many people like the styling of the 'new deck', and Smiley did a great job on the gel and lay ups .

I actually had a guy call me about building one a few weeks ago . But, no mold ......

The center insert is a 12 1/2" X 9" (parallel sides), then into a 'delta pad' that is 12 1/2" going forward to a point . Think it's about 5' long (overall). One degree rise on the 'pad' . This means that the 'pad' goes forward between the center strakes about 18" (?) Shitload of grinding and glassing on an old hull to do it . Then you need to 'router out' the areas for the two side plates .

You could use a 'drop thru strut' and fin', to reduce the work in those areas .

I've built about 12 or 13 of this configuration 20' V-drive . Seven at the same time just before moving out to Havasu . Three open bows, 4 closed decks , so total 3 OB, and 9 or 10 closed .

 

[78Southwind]

Have you tried calling Dana about the molds?

 

[AzGeo]

who, what, where or why .

Last I heard they were in Antelope Valley Calif , but don't know anything else .

Thanks in advance if you have info .

 

[78Southwind]

who, what, where or why .

Last I heard they were in Antelope Valley Calif , but don't know anything else .

Thanks in advance if you have info .

You probably know more than me since I haven't talked to Rhett since 2005 when I spoke with him about pricing on a new 20' Southwind/Dana. He told me he had purchased the molds from Smiley when he bought Dana Performance Boats. I have no idea if he still owns Dana Performance Boats or if he still has the 20 mold but here is his information that he gave me back in 2005. Hope it helps but like I said you probably know more than me.

Rhett Maxwell
Dana Performance Boats
909-399-4044
[email protected]

 

[AzGeo]

Never knew who bought the molds .

I'll need to ask Rhett about how this deal went down, since Smiley is Trophy Boats, and he owned those molds .

Smiley never used the Dana name, always Trophy .

I think after Dave Stockton left the scene his buddy Dan (who always owned the 27' molds) took the name over for a while .

Thanks again, G

 

[78Southwind]

Never knew who bought the molds .

I'll need to ask Rhett about how this deal went down, since Smiley is Trophy Boats, and he owned those molds .

Smiley never used the Dana name, always Trophy .

I think after Dave Stockton left the scene his buddy Dan (who always owned the 27' molds) took the name over for a while .

Thanks again, G

I don't think the info I gave you is good anymore so I sent a facebook message to Tyson who's boat was the first 20' Southwind/Trophy with the Dana Performance Boats name on it. Maybe he will have better info for you. This was back in 2005 he has since sold the boat and it looks like he is living in Havasu.



Here's the ad with his info in it.
http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?4025-2005-Dana-sw20

 

[AzGeo]

Thank you again .......


SORRY to have taken the original thread sideways .

 

[Allan D]

I saw these questions when they were in another post, and declined to respond, because there are many variables to what he is asking .

Do you want ?
Rigging of V-drive, steering, plates, motor, all machined and placed, but no powder coat or anodize ?

Do you want ?
All the above rigging, motor and trans install, after powder coat install, final on all mechanical systems, less wiring, dash/gauges, plumbing, floors, seating ?

Maybe just a ?
Turn key boat ?

There are also different levels of design-finish .

Artistic CNC, hand crafted-one off parts, rubber hoses, SS lines, Hard lines, chain and cable steering, power hydraulic, race car gearbox steering, etc ?

Usually a new hull will be quicker to set up and get together, just because it is '*a known piece', and because it will 'start clean, stay clean, and end up clean', which is always a faster way to work .

'* a known piece' . I'm working on a Hondo runner right now, and it has taken much longer than I had ever anticipated, for a few reasons . First, it has been repaired by 3 different glass shops, and rigged once before, and much differently than any Hondo I've ever seen . I'm working with many of the used parts from the original set up . The floors and stringers are 1/8", to 3/4" different from side to side, and the right floor is 5/8" higher than the left . Other than that, everything is just bitchen . It has been very tough to make it all 'level' and 'look good', while hiding all the miss-matched repairs . The floors and stringers are smooth and shiny, just not in the right places . It will look great and run 'straight as a string' when done .

I'm working by myself on a dolley, changing the bottom shape, lowering the shaft angle, and remounting the V-drive and motor have made this more work than starting from a new hull .

The owner has made a few minor changes, but is willing to wait for me to 'make it run and look good' . I have about 500 + - hours in it so far, and am very near 'tear down', 'slot and design milling', 'hand finishing all surfaces', 'sizing all the holes for powder coat', 'chamfer all stinger holes for epoxy', laying out wiring and plumbing .

This boat is all hard line plumbing, all components have hand made 'covers' so that no wiring will be visible, while easily serviced . This is not a regular kind of deal .

When I built my 19', 20', 22' V-drive cruisers, they normally took 5 months from the order to the delivery date, as the norm . I can see 1000 hours to build a nice V-drive cruiser, turn key .

The flat I'm doing right now is the end of the line for me doing 'outside work' . I have too many projects I want to work on, that have waited much too long on the back burner .

What kind of prices and time estimates have you gotten so far ?

Good luck .

Thank you for the wealth of knowledge you've shared. Sorry for the double post as I didn't know where it was appropriate to post and I'm new to the community here at River Dave's Place.

I've gotten to a point in my life where we finally have some disposable income after raising a family etc. so I thought I might consider stepping up to the plate with an RC21 or a Vector. I've always admired the skilled craftsmanship of various builders when it comes to V-Drives and know rigging isn't something to be taken lightly. I had guessed at around 750 hours doing a new complete install such as the boat pictured here. Respectfully I apologize for not remembering who the boat belongs to give proper credit to though. Hard lines, polished and anodized parts, manual plates that extend deep under the rear of the boat, possible outboard rudder style steering.... and a TT Brummett motor. Everything that's expected with a build of this nature. In the past I was never in a position to afford a build approaching $200k, as this is what I've estimated they are and above.

I considered possibly purchasing one already done and going through it but after seeing some of the builds here I'd guess a full refresh with gel and repairs is up there as well as you've stated. I currently have a Stoker 204 in need of a once over so I though why not go big? As for use it's 90% family, 10% full out and with an RC21 dare I say 100% pride of ownership.

 

[78Southwind]

Thank you again .......


SORRY to have taken the original thread sideways .

I talked to Tyson and he said Rhett sold the molds to someone in Southern California but he was going to try and get them back. Tyson doesn't know if he ever got them back but he's going to contact him and see.

 

[Gelcoater]

Never knew who bought the molds .

I'll need to ask Rhett about how this deal went down, since Smiley is Trophy Boats, and he owned those molds .

Smiley never used the Dana name, always Trophy .

I think after Dave Stockton left the scene his buddy Dan (who always owned the 27' molds) took the name over for a while .

Thanks again, G

George?
Wasn't Steve Strange involved with those molds at one point? I remember going out to tape with Sullivan on one for him. I think it was out in Perris or Hemet? Was a long long time ago.

 

[AzGeo]

Steve had two tunnel boat molds and one 20' (?) v-bottom jet boat mold . NONE of those were Smiley's, and Dana was still Dave Stockton at that time . Smiley was never Dana, only Trophy .

I went out to pick up a Marine Power motor from Marv, he sent us a warranty job . I went instead of sending one of my guys (because I wanted to fuck off all day, HA HA) because Steve and I were using the same computer control for nitrous at the time .

Steve had a 140+ MPH one of his tunnels and I had a motor in a 'street race car', with a similar set up, and we wanted to 'bench race some ideas', and compare fuel and power curves . Steve, his son and Marv were always a 'welcome port in any storm', good guys .

Smiley and I parted ways in 2000, and I got some cash and 4 - 22' hulls . When Stockton 'bailed out' (years before) , he stiffed Smiley for 1/2 payment on 11 hulls of all sizes ($30 to $50K) . Smiley was pretty tight after that, and I jumped in to keep things going forward, since I had known him from the days he stopped making sail boats and made the tooling and boats for Southwind (1969/70) .

 

[River Lynchmob]

Thank you for the wealth of knowledge you've shared. Sorry for the double post as I didn't know where it was appropriate to post and I'm new to the community here at River Dave's Place.

I've gotten to a point in my life where we finally have some disposable income after raising a family etc. so I thought I might consider stepping up to the plate with an RC21 or a Vector. I've always admired the skilled craftsmanship of various builders when it comes to V-Drives and know rigging isn't something to be taken lightly. I had guessed at around 750 hours doing a new complete install such as the boat pictured here. Respectfully I apologize for not remembering who the boat belongs to give proper credit to though. Hard lines, polished and anodized parts, manual plates that extend deep under the rear of the boat, possible outboard rudder style steering.... and a TT Brummett motor. Everything that's expected with a build of this nature. In the past I was never in a position to afford a build approaching $200k, as this is what I've estimated they are and above.

I considered possibly purchasing one already done and going through it but after seeing some of the builds here I'd guess a full refresh with gel and repairs is up there as well as you've stated. I currently have a Stoker 204 in need of a once over so I though why not go big? As for use it's 90% family, 10% full out and with an RC21 dare I say 100% pride of ownership.

That boat belongs to Kiwi77 on here. To do that boat today is going to be north of 250k and 2 years if you are lucky. The engine alone is north of 100k. I don't think you could build this boat in double your estimated hours, everything on these boats when built new is pretty close to a one off. Each boat that Lee builds is that much nicer and more trick that the last one.

Good luck with what ever route you go and start a thread on it so we can all follow it!

 

[Allan D]

That boat belongs to Kiwi77 on here. To do that boat today is going to be north of 250k and 2 years if you are lucky. The engine alone is north of 100k. I don't think you could build this boat in double your estimated hours, everything on these boats when built new is pretty close to a one off. Each boat that Lee builds is that much nicer and more trick that the last one.

Good luck with what ever route you go and start a thread on it so we can all follow it!

John I have to agree with you... the more I think about it the more I continue to realize its a passion I can't truely afford. Maybe one that's been well taken care of but not a new build on that level. Watching what Carson has done over the years just keeps me in awe. Who knows maybe Dan will buy Big Red back and I can cruise around in it again at his expense We have a ton of great memories in that boat! For now I guess I'll be content sprucing up my little 204 Stoker.

 

[River Lynchmob]

John I have to agree with you... the more I think about it the more I continue to realize its a passion I can't truely afford. Maybe one that's been well taken care of but not a new build on that level. Watching what Carson has done over the years just keeps me in awe. Who knows maybe Dan will buy Big Red back and I can cruise around in it again at his expense We have a ton of great memories in that boat! For now I guess I'll be content sprucing up my little 204 Stoker.

Carson is doing some crazy insane things these days and I would love to have one of his latest creations in mine some day.

Its something you just have to be patient with. When I bout mine it was an old ski race boat and I could have run it as it was but it had been beat up a bit and I didn't like it. I spent a year or so redoing it and I'm into less than half of what a new one would cost to build. What's great about mine is it was already set up and was a known quantity so there was very little time spent playing with it. These things do pop up used on occasion though the used ones are going up in price since most do not want to sell. If you are seriously looking I would get in touch with Lee. He knows where very one of these boats is and what the story is on them and who is thinking of selling long before they hit the market. Many are sold without ever being advertised and not many knowing that the boat was for sale.

Tell Dan my dad would love for him to take it back...he's been trying for over a year to sell it to no avail. It is a great boat and it has a ton of great memories in it for us as well.

Good luck!

 

[78Southwind]

Thank you again .......


SORRY to have taken the original thread sideways .

Here is the guy who had the molds last. I think he might be on RDP. His name is Jason and I will PM you his info.