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WATTS = VOLTS X AMPS ????

rrrr

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also... I'm going round and round with the "12V STORE" I order from them a roof ac,.... the ac comes in two parts,... roof unit and the inside mounting parts,... you have to order for a duct system, or with out....the roof part showed up,... but not the inside part,...few days go by and they said that the inside part was back ordered...when I bought it they said in stock,.. ship in 3 days.... well,... not the case... they just drop ship from a big supply house...so,.. I waited,.... then they said,.... we can't get the in side half, so we refunded 89 bucks..... wtf......so then I find out that no one else has the parts and they are obsolete ,... so I say,... come get it all and give all my money back....crickets....... so time goes by,... and I call my credit card company... and do a charge back... so today they email me this..." has it been installed?"... im sure there is some verbage they have that if it's installed, no returns.... well, you can't install it, there no bolts, instructions,.. or controlls.... this came shipped by truck, taped to a pallet.....pissed....
This is why I always buy cheap shit from China.

👍
 

2FORCEFULL

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Update..... got the parts needed to finish the roof A/C yesterday,... finished the install about 3pm.. inside the van was 136.... and 115 out side.. with the A/C as low as it is, as soon as you turn it on there is a cool breeze....after about an hour it was low 80's inside and after 2 hrs... low 70's... I set it on low and left it running for the night...50 degreees at night...the cool thing is you can reach the controls while still in the bed... the next test will be to try to run it on battery power... I checked the amp draw on shore power...13 amps on high fan,... which would mean about 130 amp 12v draw....I also got the 2600 watt gen,,...my calc's say about 1500 watts needed to run the A/C...anyway.....pretty cool set up,
 

2FORCEFULL

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On the express van, going down the road with both front and rear factory A/C's it will freeeze you out.... so my thought is this...say you wanna pull over for a quick nap.... with already cool in side you could turn on the inverter, set the roof A/C to low , and it should run for a bout an hour or more.... but if you are staying over night,,you'll need the gen or shore power...still wanna find out how the new class b' are doing it for 8-10hrs on 200 amp battery????
 

67 baron sprint LD 390 FE

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You also have the start up Amps when the unit first kicks on . A company makes a capacitor for rv ac’s that reduces that and you can run one rv ac off of a Honda 2,000 gen. It’s about 250$ for it
 

Uncle Dave

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You also have the start up Amps when the unit first kicks on . A company makes a capacitor for rv ac’s that reduces that and you can run one rv ac off of a Honda 2,000 gen. It’s about 250$ for it
SUPCO make a very affordable soft start kit for standard coleman and domestic AC's.

Using one you can reliably start a 13.5K unit with a honda 2K, but its a roaring little bastard running nearly flat out powering it.
 

Uncle Dave

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.... but if you are staying over night,,you'll need the gen or shore power...still wanna find out how the new class b' are doing it for 8-10hrs on 200 amp battery????
OR you need a secondary alternator and to idle/ fast idle the vehicle which causes its own set of issues.

IF/When you find out could you please let me know as well sir?

They aren't doing it off a 200 AMP bank because....math is a cruel bitch that treats everyone the same.
 

2FORCEFULL

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another update.... ran the A/C off the inverter/battery today...I let it set in the sun till 11 am... at 11 am,... I turned on the A/C It ran for almost 1 hr.....went 58 minutes on high... took about 5 minutes to make it cool enough for a nap... slept for 1 hour till the alarm went off for low battery,,,,so way long enough for a road side nap,... but like said, if it was for all night with no power, just fire up the gen,,, it is supposed to run 10 hrs on one tank of fuel...
 

2FORCEFULL

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also wanna add... no startup problem with my a/c... but it is only 9000 btu... when I turned on the A/C the fan didn't even come on with the 3000 watt converter...so for it to go 1 hour,... must have been pulling an average of 10 amps..or less... still had 60% battery when the first beeper went off.. it'll shut off at 10.8 volts
 

2FORCEFULL

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You also have the start up Amps when the unit first kicks on . A company makes a capacitor for rv ac’s that reduces that and you can run one rv ac off of a Honda 2,000 gen. It’s about 250$ for it
I'm thinking the coleman cub 9000 btu must have some kind of soft start built in because when you go fromfan to A/C there is no differance, in fact I put my clamp on tester to see if the compressor was even coming on,.... same when it cycled ,... no noteable differance in sound...all in all... very very happy with the results..I can go to a job site, or camp ground, or just pull over where ever......self contained Van down by the river....lol
 

67 baron sprint LD 390 FE

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I'm thinking the coleman cub 9000 btu must have some kind of soft start built in because when you go fromfan to A/C there is no differance, in fact I put my clamp on tester to see if the compressor was even coming on,.... same when it cycled ,... no noteable differance in sound...all in all... very very happy with the results..I can go to a job site, or camp ground, or just pull over where ever......self contained Van down by the river....lol
That’s will be nice 👍 I did a amp Check on a panel one day because there were some issues , with both airs on and maybe a few
Lights and the converter I was pulling 22 amps,
Obviously after they were running and not on start up . I know a buddy of mine has a new toy hauler with triple ac’s and he has a 5500 gen and runs all 3. He said the new ac’s pull less amps and prob have the soft start on them
 

rrrr

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also wanna add... no startup problem with my a/c... but it is only 9000 btu... when I turned on the A/C the fan didn't even come on with the 3000 watt converter...so for it to go 1 hour,... must have been pulling an average of 10 amps..or less... still had 60% battery when the first beeper went off.. it'll shut off at 10.8 volts
If you're running the battery down to 10.8 volts, that's 100% discharged. Repeatedly allowing the battery to reach that state of discharge will have an extreme effect on its lifespan.

The typical discharge voltage allowed for 12 volt deep cycle batteries that provides the most discharge-charge cycles is 60%.

You'll be fortunate if you get 40-50 cycles out of it before it fails.

 

2FORCEFULL

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If you're running the battery down to 10.8 volts, that's 100% discharged. Repeatedly allowing the battery to reach that state of discharge will have an extreme effect on its lifespan.

The typical discharge voltage allowed for 12 volt deep cycle batteries that provides the most discharge-charge cycles is 60%.

You'll be fortunate if you get 40-50 cycles out of it before it fails.

warning beeper goes off at 60% 11.8 volts
 

2FORCEFULL

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If you're running the battery down to 10.8 volts, that's 100% discharged. Repeatedly allowing the battery to reach that state of discharge will have an extreme effect on its lifespan.

The typical discharge voltage allowed for 12 volt deep cycle batteries that provides the most discharge-charge cycles is 60%.

You'll be fortunate if you get 40-50 cycles out of it before it fails.

my battery says 750 50% discharge cycles


  • Manufactured with gel suspended electrolyte and advanced valve regulated technology, Renogy Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Batteries save you from acid leakage and frequent maintenance
  • Corrosion resistant grids enable a design life of up to 12 years in standby applications and more than 750 charge/discharge cycles at 50% DOD in cyclic applications
  • Made of high purity materials, Renogy Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Batteries reduce the monthly self-discharge rate below 3% at 77℉ (25℃), which is 5 times lower than their flooded counterparts
  • Proprietary plate composition and patented gel electrolyte ensures excellent recovery capability after excessive deep discharge
  • : 3-year material
 

rrrr

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my battery says 750 50% discharge cycles
And that's a typical number. The way your post read, I thought you were running the battery down to 10.8 volts, which would obviously kill it quickly.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

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2FORCEFULL

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well,... this pisses me off.....got the gen out,... put oil in it.... while the side cover was off...I turned the fuel bowl drain screw,... carb full of varnish!!!!!..so put fuel in the tank, and let it run through the carb....,.. once clear, tightened the screw and tried to start,... only runs half ass with choke on, dies as quick as you let off the choke....so I loaded it up with lucas,... and let it run,.. if it runs at all , it's getting some fuel through the jet.....after about an hour I was able to pull the choke off,... but won't take a power load
 

2FORCEFULL

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lucus did the trick...had it run @ 1500 watts for about 30 min....no problem.....plugged the van in, turned on the A/C....it must have a soft start because you never hear the compressor come on...@ 4pm... temp in side was 121 degrees.....@ 4:30 ...91 degrees... van is setting out in total sunshine....I did put tweeker tint on the big back windows, they were @ 156 degrees out side 121 inside...

with the van plugged in and A/C on max....1580 watts...so 620 watts left....not counting surge of 2600 watts..


so again,,, the intended use will be going down the road.... both van a/c's on,....pull into a rest spot for a nap....van will already be cool inside..., then just turn on the roof A/C,.. if just stopping for a 1/2 hour or so,run A/C off battery's..... if longer than an hour, look for rv park,... (KOA)... or fire up the gen...


pretty "COOL RIG"
 

2FORCEFULL

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Blue

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So you were sold a used generator?
 

2FORCEFULL

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So you were sold a used generator?
NO, when they test them the run them on load.. ,drain the fluids , and ship...if one sets on the shelf and they didn't drain the carb bowl they get gummed up and won't run.... I ran a bunch of lucus through it and it runs fine... ran it for 2 hrs yesterday with the A/C on low... the bed was @ 62 degrees with the temp set to max,.. another cool thing is you can reach right up and turn controls... only difference running on high was about 100 watts... 1490 on low and 1590 on high... that's at full load 115 degrees outside..
 

Uncle Dave

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The idle for power scheme is one way to keep continuous power flowing, but you have to look at what you actually put out at idle as far as amps go, and without a hairpin type alternator or fast idle kit it's usually deminimis. There will be a curve on the kit that shows you what you'll get at idle.

Some other things to consider about that scheme.

1 hour of idling is more or less equivalent to 33 miles of driving. (based on Fords study of government service vehicles)

Without airflow under the vehicle the cat and exhaust are going to create and trap ton of heat - that will xfer to the interior to some degree negating some cooling.

Depending on the year of the vehicle if it uses a Direct injection system idling will foul the oil with fuel at a much faster than a typical drive will, and the OLM will signal an oil change at around 3K (with a nights worth of idling being about 240 of those miles). IF one is going to do this frequently Id suggest an oil analysis regimen, or at min follow the severe service schedule even with synthetic oil.

Thanks for sharing your tribulations with us Steve.

Dave
 
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Uncle Dave

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You have 2 of these in parallel right Steve?

IF so better be careful hooking them up to an alternator - the max charge rate on these is fairly low lower than a high amp alternator.

AN alterator driven separate charger like a ctek 250 would be a good idea.

This also acts as an isolator so you wouldnt need to buy that and integrates as an mppt charger with solar up to X volts- you may be over.



RENOGY DEEP CYCLE HYBRID GEL BATTERY 12V 100AH
Nominal Voltage: 12VRated Capacity:100Ah@20hr-rate to 10.5V @ 25°C / 77°F
Reference Capacity:C3: 74.4Ah;C5: 83.5Ah;C10: 95.0Ah;C20: 100.0AhFloat Charging Voltage:13.6V~13.8V (25°C / 77°F);Temperature Compensation: -18mV/°C
Cycle Use Voltage:14.2V~14.4V (25°C / 77°F);Temperature Compensation: -24mV/°CEqualization Voltage:14.2V (25°C / 77°F)
Max Discharge Current:1000A (5 seconds)Max Charge Current:30A
Normal Operating Temperature:77°F±9°F / 25°C±5°COperating Temperature Range:Discharge: -4°F~140°F / -20°C~60°C;Charge: 32°F~122°F / 0°C~50°C
Storage Temperature Range:-4°F~140°F / -20°C~60°CSelf Discharge Rate:≤3% per month at 25°C / 77°F
Terminal Bolt Size:M8 x 1.25 x 16 mmInternal Resistance:Approx. 6.0mΩ
Container Material:ABSWeight:63.9 lb. / 29 kg
Dimension:12.9 x 6.8 x 8.7 inch / 328 x 172 x 220 mmRecommended Terminal Torque:88.5-106.2 inch·lb / 10-12 N·m
 
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2FORCEFULL

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You have 2 of these in parallel right Steve?

IF so better be careful hooking them up to an alternator - the max charge rate on these is fairly low lower than a high amp alternator.

AN alterator driven separate charger like a ctek 250 would be a good idea.

This also acts as an isolator so you wouldnt need to buy that and integrates as an mppt charger with solar up to X volts- you may be over.



RENOGY DEEP CYCLE HYBRID GEL BATTERY 12V 100AH
Nominal Voltage: 12VRated Capacity:100Ah@20hr-rate to 10.5V @ 25°C / 77°F
Reference Capacity:C3: 74.4Ah;C5: 83.5Ah;C10: 95.0Ah;C20: 100.0AhFloat Charging Voltage:13.6V~13.8V (25°C / 77°F);Temperature Compensation: -18mV/°C
Cycle Use Voltage:14.2V~14.4V (25°C / 77°F);Temperature Compensation: -24mV/°CEqualization Voltage:14.2V (25°C / 77°F)
Max Discharge Current:1000A (5 seconds)Max Charge Current:30A
Normal Operating Temperature:77°F±9°F / 25°C±5°COperating Temperature Range:Discharge: -4°F~140°F / -20°C~60°C;Charge: 32°F~122°F / 0°C~50°C
Storage Temperature Range:-4°F~140°F / -20°C~60°CSelf Discharge Rate:≤3% per month at 25°C / 77°F
Terminal Bolt Size:M8 x 1.25 x 16 mmInternal Resistance:Approx. 6.0mΩ
Container Material:ABSWeight:63.9 lb. / 29 kg
Dimension:12.9 x 6.8 x 8.7 inch / 328 x 172 x 220 mmRecommended Terminal Torque:88.5-106.2 inch·lb / 10-12 N·m
NO,.... I have the one 200ah battery...

Battery Specifications
12V 200AH Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Battery


  • Rated Capacity: 200Ah@20hr-rate to 10.8V @ 25℃ / 77℉
  • Reference Capacity: C3: 148.5Ah/C5: 167.0Ah/C10: 190.0Ah/C20: 200.0Ah
  • Float Charging Voltage: 13.6V~13.8V 77℉ -Temperature Compensation: -18mV/℃
  • Cycle Use Voltage: 14.2V~14.4V 77℉ -Temperature Compensation: -24mV/℃
  • Equalization Voltage: 14.2V 77℉
  • Max Discharge Current: 2000A (5 seconds)
  • Max Charge Current: 60A
  • Operating Temperature Range: Discharge: -4℉~140℉/ Charge: 32℉~122℉
  • Storage Temperature Range: -4℉~140℉
  • Self Discharge Rate: ≤3% per month at 77℉
now, according to their specs I can go 10.8 volts , 750 times or more..."?????
The idle for power scheme is one way to keep continuous power flowing, but you have to look at what you actually put out at idle as far as amps go, and without a hairpin type alternator or fast idle kit it's usually deminimis. There will be a curve on the kit that shows you what you'll get at idle.

Some other things to consider about that scheme.

1 hour of idling is more or less equivalent to 33 miles of driving. (based on Fords study of government service vehicles)

Without airflow under the vehicle the cat and exhaust are going to create and trap ton of heat - that will xfer to the interior to some degree negating some cooling.

Depending on the year of the vehicle if it uses a Direct injection system idling will foul the oil with fuel at a much faster than a typical drive will, and the OLM will signal an oil change at around 3K (with a nights worth of idling being about 240 of those miles). IF one is going to do this frequently Id suggest an oil analysis regimen, or at min follow the severe service schedule even with synthetic oil.

Thanks for sharing your tribulations with us Steve.

Dave
I'm doing the "
12V 140 Amp Dual Battery Isolator by KeyLine Chargers - Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR) Pro Dual Battery Kit) ....

$114.97


my idea is this.... if I do stop and run the A/C for 20 min.... the van alt would bring the coach battery up to full way quicker...I already have the 2500 gen, so I would just use that for the one or two times I might wanna stop longer. the stock van alt will be plenty for me, and the battery will always be up,... same as in my motor home....

as it is right now, all I have to do is get a good idea where I'm going, and what for, and how long... I can go in the van, the motorhome,... and also tow the travel trailer....


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Uncle Dave

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Got it - almost the same exact result paralleling the 2x100AH batts- 60 AH max charge.

This isolator will pass 140 amps at (probably 13.6 volts) through it which is great for a 4 batt bank, but too much for your single battery

You can only charge that battery at 60 amps - you'll likely cook it at the charge rate the alternator can put out.

How many amps is your alternator at freeway speed?

Id guess your alternator is closer to 100 than 60 amps.

UD
 
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2FORCEFULL

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Got it - almost the same exact result paralleling the 2x100AH batts- 60 AH max charge.

This isolator will pass 140 amps at (probably 13.6 volts) through it which is great for a 4 batt bank, but too much for your single battery

You can only charge that battery at 60 amps - you'll likely cook it at the charge rate the alternator can put out.

How many amps is your alternator at freeway speed?

Id guess your alternator is closer to 100 than 60 amps.

UD
interesting,,,...how many amps can you charge a reg. lead acid car battery???
 

Uncle Dave

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interesting,,,...how many amps can you charge a reg. lead acid car battery???
Depends on the battery chemistry and construction - each manufacturer has a defined rate of charge/discharge

This charge and discharge rate is whats known as the "C" rate by many manufacturers, its safe to assume the charge and discharge rate are about equal.

Odyssey AGMs have an extremely low internal resistance and can allow bulk charging at the same amperage as the face value of the battery - you can slam 80% of the amps back into them quickly without an overheat.
 

2FORCEFULL

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I'm thinking this...............a 200 amp alt... will take a 200 amp draw.... a low battery will not ever ask for 200 amps...I think the 60 amps is the max the battery will pull...
 

2FORCEFULL

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Depends on the battery chemistry and construction - each manufacturer has a defined rate of charge/discharge

This charge and discharge rate is whats known as the "C" rate by many manufacturers, its safe to assume the charge and discharge rate are about equal.

Odyssey AGMs have an extremely low internal resistance and can allow bulk charging at the same amperage as the face value of the battery - you can slam 80% of the amps back into them quickly without an overheat.
a 200 ah battery, considered dead @ 100 amps,... or 10.8???? is not gonna draw 200 amps of charge, I don't think...
 

Uncle Dave

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I'm thinking this...............a 200 amp alt... will take a 200 amp draw.... a low battery will not ever ask for 200 amps...I think the 60 amps is the max the battery will pull...
Heres how this was explained to me- FWIW

The battery isnt "pulling" when its taking a charge- the alternator is pushing. Its like a battery charger with a fixed output at say 1700 RPM

Your starter battery doesnt consistently drain down as far and as such doenst often require deep bulk cycle charges bouncing between 80-95%

IF you wanted that battery to live the longest possible life you'd charge it with as low an amperage as you can get away with between discharges - that creates less internal heat and off gassing, but with a 100 Amp alternator you are charging at max or above max rate every cycle.

dedicated chargers have multiple stages (and temp sensors) and taper the amp output based on voltage as the voltage gets closer to max they taper downward - your (anyones) alternator has one charge rate when driving down the freeway- full bore.

Your setup will for sure work I think based on what Ive seen though that you are going to end up cooking your battery early..

UD
 
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2FORCEFULL

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Depends on the battery chemistry and construction - each manufacturer has a defined rate of charge/discharge

This charge and discharge rate is whats known as the "C" rate by many manufacturers, its safe to assume the charge and discharge rate are about equal.

Odyssey AGMs have an extremely low internal resistance and can allow bulk charging at the same amperage as the face value of the battery - you can slam 80% of the amps back into them quickly without an overheat.
I personaly don't know what is right...but.. here's the way I was taught... It's not the amps that will kill it, it's the volts... charge with over 14 volts and it'll kill the battery, thats what the controller is for..as far as amps,... the max amps of 60 is the max amps it will accept, anything over it won't absorb so it's just a waist....

like I said, I don't know,... but having fun learning all I caan before I die.... might need to know on the other side..
 

2FORCEFULL

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Heres how this was explained to me- FWIW

The battery isnt "pulling" when its taking a charge- the alternator is pushing. Its like a battery charger with a fixed output at say 1700 RPM

Your starter battery doesnt consistently drain down as far and as such doenst often require deep bulk cycle charges bouncing between 80-95%

IF you wanted that battery to live the longest possible life you'd charge it with as low an amperage as you can get away with between discharges - that creates less internal heat and off gassing, but with a 100 Amp alternator you are charging at max or above max rate every cycle.

dedicated chargers have multiple stages (and temp sensors) and taper the amp output based on voltage as the voltage gets closer to max they taper downward - your (anyones) alternator has one charge rate when driving down the freeway- full bore.

Your setup will for sure work I think based on what Ive seen though that you are going to end up cooking your battery early..

UD
first off, Thanks for all your posts!!!.. I've learned from you through the years.... your post raises yet another question...voltage regulator..... if your battery is not dead... the alt charges at a lower rate... if you ac is not on, the alt produces less amps.... the alt doesn't put out any amps with out an amp draw...
I put a 200 amp on a ford van I had.... wasn't doing what they said.... so they had me bring it in...they had a box that created200 amp draw and measure how much the alt was putting out...in my case it was only putting out 110 amps,.. so the gave me a new one...kinda like a 12v light ... you can put all the amps you want and it will just light up,... but increase the volts and it will keep getting brighter till it burns up..
 

rrrr

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NO,.... I have the one 200ah battery...

Battery Specifications
12V 200AH Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Battery


  • Rated Capacity: 200Ah@20hr-rate to 10.8V @ 25℃ / 77℉
  • Reference Capacity: C3: 148.5Ah/C5: 167.0Ah/C10: 190.0Ah/C20: 200.0Ah
  • Float Charging Voltage: 13.6V~13.8V 77℉ -Temperature Compensation: -18mV/℃
  • Cycle Use Voltage: 14.2V~14.4V 77℉ -Temperature Compensation: -24mV/℃
  • Equalization Voltage: 14.2V 77℉
  • Max Discharge Current: 2000A (5 seconds)
  • Max Charge Current: 60A
  • Operating Temperature Range: Discharge: -4℉~140℉/ Charge: 32℉~122℉
  • Storage Temperature Range: -4℉~140℉
  • Self Discharge Rate: ≤3% per month at 77℉
now, according to their specs I can go 10.8 volts , 750 times or more..."?????
You have missed the fine print on your battery specs. From the post above in which you replied to my comments about 10.8 volts and posted the specifications of your battery, this is its lifetime cyclic capacity:

Corrosion resistant grids enable a design life of up to 12 years in standby applications and more than 750 charge/discharge cycles at 50% DOD in cyclic applications

"DOD" means depth of discharge. The 50% DOD voltage for your battery is 12.6 volts. As I said above, if you run the battery down to 10.8 volts, which is 100% discharged, the cycle life will be around 50, not 750.
 

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Run your calculations assume worst case conditions:

Sine Wave efficiency = 90%
Battery input to converter = 10.6VDC
Inverter Output = 120VAC -10%
Cable loss = 3%

A 200AH battery doesn't output 200A. The standard rating is an amp rating taken for 20 hours. What this means for a 100 AH rated battery is this: Draw from the battery for 20 hours, and it will provide a total of 100 amp hours. That translates to about 5 amps an hour. (5 x 20 = 100). However, it's very important to know that the total time of discharge and load applied is not a linear relationship. As your load increases, your realized capacity decreases. This means if you discharged that same 100 AH battery by a 100 amp load, it will not give you one hour of runtime.
 

Uncle Dave

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I personaly don't know what is right...but.. here's the way I was taught... It's not the amps that will kill it, it's the volts... charge with over 14 volts and it'll kill the battery, thats what the controller is for..as far as amps,... the max amps of 60 is the max amps it will accept, anything over it won't absorb so it's just a waist....

like I said, I don't know,... but having fun learning all I caan before I die.... might need to know on the other side..

Both volts and amps are critical to get right -either can kill/shorten.

Wet lead, agm, and gels all require a different voltage.
Many AGMS want 14.7 to float. So an alternator that never puts out more than 14 won't charge them fully.
Undervolting isnt as critical as overvolting but undervaluing results in a chronically undercharged battery will sulfate and wear out quicker.

Max charge rate in amps is usually around 20% of face for wet leads, to 100% of face for some AGM's based on chemistry.

You can test the theory of battery acceptance being limaiting factor by draining a battery down to 50% dod then putting it on an old school analog charger and feeding it more amps than the max charge rate they claim it can take and seeing what happens after 10 or so of these cycles back to back.


I did a lot of inverter/ charger work for dog vans and struggled with the same things so whatever little bit I can help I'm happy to share what I can.
 

Uncle Dave

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As your load increases, your realized capacity decreases. This means if you discharged that same 100 AH battery by a 100 amp load, it will not give you one hour of runtime.
Correct this non linear outcome based on load is known as the "puekert" effect/ formula.

This is recognized in this spec, as load increases ( c ) the available TOTAL AH falls.

  • Reference Capacity: C3: 148.5Ah/C5: 167.0Ah/C10: 190.0Ah/C20: 200.0Ah
 

Wheeler

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I personaly don't know what is right...but.. here's the way I was taught... It's not the amps that will kill it, it's the volts... charge with over 14 volts and it'll kill the battery, thats what the controller is for..as far as amps,... the max amps of 60 is the max amps it will accept, anything over it won't absorb so it's just a waist....

like I said, I don't know,... but having fun learning all I caan before I die.... might need to know on the other side..
I would assume that you've checked this site out but we know about assumptions.

 

rrrr

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IF you wanted that battery to live the longest possible life you'd charge it with as low an amperage as you can get away with between discharges - that creates less internal heat and off gassing, but with a 100 Amp alternator you are charging at max or above max rate every cycle.
This is incorrect. Automotive deep cycle type battery initial recharge rates should be a percentage (usually 10-20%) of its Ah capacity, and the current should taper off as the state of charge increases. The typical electronically controlled charger accomplishes this automatically.

Using a vehicle alternator to recharge a battery that is subject to repeated discharges and a moderate depth of discharge will result in a less than optimum battery life, but it's not a significant difference.

The battery will be recharged at the maximum voltage output of the alternator, about 14.8 volts, not the current capacity (in this case 100 amps) of the alternator. An alternator will produce its maximum rated amperage output only if the load demands it, but at a voltage that is the maximum value established by its voltage regulator. Although batteries do have a self limiting amount of current acceptance, constant voltage charging automatically reduces the charge current as the battery reaches full charge.

Steve mentioned his understanding that amperage, not voltage, is the determining factor in reducing battery life. In fact, both are intertwined and inseparable. When the DC charging voltage is increased, so does the charge amperage. This is different than the properties of AC systems, where voltage remains constant as the load, expressed in amps, is increased or decreased.

Deep cycle lead acid and AGM batteries should ideally be recharged in a three step process that automatically reduces the charge voltage and current as a function of time. Electronically controlled step chargers properly perform this function.

This chart shows the relationship between voltage and amperage in battery charging. The chart also illustrates both the amperage, volts per cell (VPC) charge rates, and the desired time at each charging stage. which will produce a 100% charge and the longest life for the battery.

Regardless of the manner used to recharge the battery, excessive heat and off gassing will not be an issue as long as the battery hasn't been discharged an extreme amount. In those instances, because of the higher current involved, the battery temperature should be monitored during the initial charge stage.

 
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2FORCEFULL

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here's a concern of mine with no definite answer,... here's the deal.. on my rv,... I have a reg lead acid battery for the chassis...I have a 200 ah gel for the coach.... I have 300 watt solar hooked to the coach battery....I tow a trailer... with another 300 watt solar feeding a single rv deep cycle battery,...

before putting the solar and the trailer battery, I had a 12v wire coming from the coach battery's to power the trailer....when I added the trailer solar and battery, I disconnected the 12v wire that hooked the trailer to coach power... so now,... the trailer is stand alone..... my question is this,... what if I hooked the wire back up,... this would end up making a battery bank with different battery's... and end up with two solar systems,... correct???

so I say the wire has to stay disconected....Correct????.. the idea would be that going down the road the alt would charge the trailer battery,...
 

rrrr

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While I don't know for sure, I would think the solar panels have a diode on the output wire to prevent voltage feedback. If that's so, you can leave then hooked up. Check the wiring diagrams or ask the manufacturer.

As for the gel and lead acid batteries, the optimum charging voltage for both varies a couple of tenths, but is centered around 14.4 volts. Your van's alternator probably has an output of 14.4-14.8 volts. That difference isn't a big deal. Float charging for batteries in stationary applications is more critical, because they're being charged 24/7. Your 2-3 hour trips between Las Vegas and LHC aren't going to make a difference.
 
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Uncle Dave

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From the renogy site - warranty claim was denied due to the client using an 80 amp charger but insisted on it being ok because his claim of battery "draw" being the factor.




Watch out for your charger
These guys denied my warranty because my charger was rated higher than their batteries' max amp charging current. The batteries will draw on a charging cycle which means that they will draw up to 60amps. An 80 amp charger is correct size for the application because it is capable of charging up to an 80 amp draw (charging cycle). Just terrible customer service when it comes to a warranty.
  • Use
  • Marine/Boat
  • ✘ No,
  • I do not recommend this product.
  • Quality of Product
 

lbhsbz

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here's a concern of mine with no definite answer,... here's the deal.. on my rv,... I have a reg lead acid battery for the chassis...I have a 200 ah gel for the coach.... I have 300 watt solar hooked to the coach battery....I tow a trailer... with another 300 watt solar feeding a single rv deep cycle battery,...

before putting the solar and the trailer battery, I had a 12v wire coming from the coach battery's to power the trailer....when I added the trailer solar and battery, I disconnected the 12v wire that hooked the trailer to coach power... so now,... the trailer is stand alone..... my question is this,... what if I hooked the wire back up,... this would end up making a battery bank with different battery's... and end up with two solar systems,... correct???

so I say the wire has to stay disconected....Correct????.. the idea would be that going down the road the alt would charge the trailer battery,...
Any batteries that are tied together should be of the same type/size and same state of charge. Also, alternators are not battery chargers...they are designed to supply power to support a load using the battery as a buffer. You'd do better to run a charger off the genset for the house batteries, along with the solar, and keep the alternator for the chassis battery.
 

rrrr

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Any batteries that are tied together should be of the same type/size and same state of charge. Also, alternators are not battery chargers...they are designed to supply power to support a load using the battery as a buffer. You'd do better to run a charger off the genset for the house batteries, along with the solar, and keep the alternator for the chassis battery.
Based on the fact the batteries would be charged by the alternator at a constant rate of about 2.42 VPC, and the duration of the trip is only two or three hours, the individual state of discharge and impedance differences due to battery type become much less critical. I don't think charging them with the alternator would unduly affect their lifespan.

If the batteries were in stationary service and connected to the same charging source 24/7, the difference in size and impedance would produce an increasing diversion in float voltage and state of charge, rendering the batteries unserviceable in relatively short order.

I do agree that when the vehicle reaches the end of a trip, the batteries should be disconnected from each other and charged separately with an automatic three stage charger.

As for my comment about the solar panels, I have reconsidered my statement above. Even if they have isolation diodes, they should be disconnected when the vehicle is traveling. They won't be contributing any charge current, so in the interest of protecting them from any anomalies that's the best choice.
 

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This is incorrect. Automotive deep cycle type battery initial recharge rates should be a percentage (usually 10-20%) of its Ah capacity, and the current will taper off as the state of charge increases. The typical electronically controlled charger accomplishes this automatically.
Good dialog.

The current will taper off but start out with the max the system can deliver amp wise (this is max amps minus losses that alway occur) A 100 amp alternator will very likely charge higher than the 60 amp max charge rating when charging a well depleted battery - its this bulk charge phase that builds heat especially if its going to charge in bulk a long time. Steve won't know how many amps its putting out and when, because his dash likely only has a voltmeter.

Agreed - an electronically controlled charger does offer this, but an alternator is not that, its typically an analog device without any sort of smart regulation.

Agreed on a min % being needed. The lower % of the acceptable range the better for longevity.
In the post prior I mention 20% - thats almost always a safe bet for wet lead acids.

Using a vehicle alternator to recharge a battery that is subject to repeated discharges and a moderate depth of discharge will result in a less than optimum battery life, but it's not a significant difference.
I guess it depends on ones definition of moderate dod - to my mind a 50% dod is a lot on a regular basis for an alternator to recover from.
The greater the spend on the battery the more it makes sense to get as close to the deal charge profile as you can.

The battery will be recharged at the maximum voltage output of the alternator, about 14.8 volts, not the current capacity (in this case 100 amps) of the alternator. An alternator will produce its maximum rated amperage output only if the load demands it, but at a voltage that is the maximum value established by its voltage regulator. Although batteries do have a self limiting amount of current acceptance, constant voltage charging automatically reduces the charge current as the battery reaches full charge.
If its really 14.8 volts Steve is over Volted slightly from what the spec calls for. Without an electronic feedback like a smart charger has your alternator either over charges or undercharges never quite getting it right - usually they err on the side of undercharging and taper to 13.6V really quickly.
A separate charger, or balmar kit would remove this guesswork.

Steve mentioned his understanding that amperage, not voltage, is the determining factor in reducing battery life. In fact, both are intertwined and inseparable. When the DC charging voltage is increased, so does the charge amperage. This is different than the properties of AC systems, where voltage remains constant as the load, expressed in amps, is increased or decreased.
Agreed- mostly. My outback inverter has a very high end charger and will taper both voltage and amperage when using AC inputs..

Deep cycle lead acid and AGM batteries should ideally be recharged in a three step process that automatically reduces the charge voltage and current as a function of time. Electronically controlled step chargers properly perform this function.
agreed, although I would add gel to that list of benefiting from an electronically controlled charging process.

This chart shows the relationship between voltage and amperage in battery charging. The chart also illustrates both the amperage, volts per cell (VPC) charge rates, and the desired time at each charging stage. which will produce a 100% charge and the longest life for the battery.
This chart shows one particular battery and its chemistries ideal charge profile (looks like wet lead acid).

Regardless of the manner used to recharge the battery, excessive heat and off gassing will not be an issue as long as the battery hasn't been discharged an extreme amount. In those instances, because of the higher current involved, the battery temperature should be monitored during the initial charge stage.
Agreed mostly - at what point is a battery discharged an extreme amount? what if his wife leaves the fan on and no one is around to hear the alarm and it goes to 10.8V-
Steve has no temp sensor in his scheme, this is one reason why I recommended a dedicated charge controller like the CTEK that has one. This would get around all the questions about his alternators current and voltage output as well as offer a controlled stepped profile for the exact chemistry he's using vs the generic output an alternator provides

In my experience a remote (not ambient) temp sensor is paramount to making regularly cycled batteries live a long life, and should be part of any charger thats capable of 20 amps continuous or more but my experience is in commercial applications used about 1K hours a year.
 
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Uncle Dave

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Here's my last setup

It has an onan 8K for main power and when you need massive amps (dog grooming vans are horrific)

An outback 2000 inverter with built in charger and 2 pc 1800's carries you through when you dont need AC and a high power dryer.

Just had a guy lose his deposit - dropped 10K to hold it a month and 2 weeks ago and can't get a loan.

Bummed for him- bummed for me.


UD

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rrrr

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I'm too tired to respond to everything but this:

The current will taper off but start out with the max the system can deliver amp wise (this is max amps minus losses that alway occur) A 100 amp alternator will very likely charge higher than the 60 amp max charge rating when charging a well depleted battery - its this bulk charge phase that builds heat especially if its going to charge in bulk a long time. Steve won't know how many amps its putting out and when, because his dash likely only has a voltmeter.

I'm also too tired and lazy to plot a charge curve for a flooded lead acid 200 Ah battery that's 100% discharged, but I'm going to guess when connected to the 100 amp alternator, the maximum current wouldn't exceed 80 amps, would drop to half that in less than five minutes, and so on as the curve rapidly flattens out.

You're correct in stating a temperature sensor is a good idea.

I should also note Steve said his system beeped when the voltage reached 11.8 volts, or 40% discharged. If the system was shut down at that point, he would avoid the damage to the battery caused by deeper discharges. If he exceeds that limit, his battery life will be drastically reduced.

This is especially true with battery types other than flooded lead acid. They can stand more abuse than AGM and gel batteries.
 

2FORCEFULL

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Any batteries that are tied together should be of the same type/size and same state of charge. Also, alternators are not battery chargers...they are designed to supply power to support a load using the battery as a buffer. You'd do better to run a charger off the genset for the house batteries, along with the solar, and keep the alternator for the chassis battery.
pretty sure that's the way it is on the RV, ,when plugged in or gen running,...it gets it's charge through the power converter.....on the RV there is a BIN, that isolates the house from chassis battery's I think... the BIN allows for the chassis to be charged, then when in float ,charge the house battery's
 

2FORCEFULL

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Here's my last setup

It has an onan 8K for main power and when you need massive amps (dog grooming vans are horrific)

An outback 2000 inverter with built in charger and 2 pc 1800's carries you through when you dont need AC and a high power dryer.

Just had a guy lose his deposit - dropped 10K to hold it a month and 2 weeks ago and can't get a loan.

Bummed for him- bummed for me.


UD

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Damn,... wish you were close by so I could show you the first ,what I though after buying was way over kill...

first thing I bought was 2 of these 200ah battery's
Renogy 12V 200AH Rechargeable Deep Cycle Hybrid Gel Battery for Solar Wind RV Marine Camping UPS Wheelchair Trolling Motor, Maintenance Free, Non Spillable
next, I bought this 3000 watt.9000 surge inverter charger

Renogy PCL1-30111S 3000 Watt 12V DC to 120V AC Pure Sine Wave Inverter Charger w/LCD Display, Lithium Battery Compatibility 9000W Surge

and,
Renogy LCD remote Control Module for 1000W 2000W 3000W Inverter Charger AC Input & AC Output Display, Renogy LCD Remote for Inverter Charger



I also bought local a 300 watt 24v solar panel w/ 30amp controller... after buying everything, and looking at the size, I decided against using every thing, and bought a new smaller 3000 watt inverter with out the charger.... the problem for me with the inverter charger was the size, and the fact that on shore power you had to run through the converter, and if it fails, no power from shore.. with my set up as it is now,I can use shore power, (which I will use the most) and not have to turn the inverter on

this is the inverter i'm using..

Renogy 3000W 12V Pure Sine Wave Inverter 3000 Watt Solar Power Battery Converter 12VDC to 120Vac ETL Listed
 
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