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Why the P-47 had a huge fuselage

rrrr

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I know we have a bunch of pilots here, and also warbird enthusiasts, so I wanted to share a website I found. It has some amazing information and photos concerning the rugged and deadly Republic Aviation P-47 Thunderbolt, the "Jug". This airplane filled in the need for a long range escort fighter for American bomber forces between late 1943 and mid 1944, before the P-51 Mustang appeared and became the dominant fighter of the European theater.

Even so, the "Jug" was known as a powerful dogfighter and terror inducing tactical ground attack weapon. German troops were known to fear the aircraft, which they called the "Jabo", derived from the German Jäger-Bomber or Fighter-Bomber. The D model was fitted with 10 underwing 5" rockets, which could easily destroy freight trains and Wehrmacht armored columns.

If you look at a photo of a Thunderbolt, the first glance shows it has a huge fuselage. Compare it to the size of the cockpit canopy. I knew the reason for that was because the turbocharger was placed behind the pilot, but I had no idea just what was involved with how it was plumbed and making the system work.

P-47-no-engine-cowling.png


What's going on here?

The answer is related to the 2,400 HP 18 cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp engine that powered the Thunderbolt. The R-2800 in the P-47 was turbocharged, and the manner in which this was accomplished and the size of the components is astounding.

First of all, at an altitude of 25,000', the sea level atmospheric pressure of 14.7 PSI is around 5 PSI. This had huge implications for the amount of air the engine required to produce its rated horsepower, and just as importantly, the amount of air needed to cool the intake charge after it left the turbocharger.

Every part of the induction system and exhaust plumbing, the intercooler, the ducts, and the turbocharger were huge. Massive. Seeing the entire setup on a static display stand reveals just how much engineering was required to make it all work.

The National Museum of WW II Aviation in Colorado Springs, CO, has one of these static displays, and it's amazing to look at.

I'll post a couple of photos, but you need to visit the website to get the full story. I was blown away by how big all of the parts are. Take a look at the turbocharger and the intercooler. Realize you're seeing just one half of the intercooler, the other half is concealed by the port side cooling air overboard dump ductwork. The turbocharger, manufactured by GE, was the same one used on the B-17's Wright R-1820 radial, but seeing it in the context of a fighter instead of a four engine bomber reveals just how big it is.

P-47-powertrain_DSC_7262.jpg


Here's a front view of the the big P&W radial. Take a look at the size of the turbocharger and intercooler supply inlet and duct, which runs under the cockpit. The twin engine exhausts were outboard of the air inlet duct. The compressed charge air ducts feeding the engine were routed on either side of the pilot.

P-47-powertrain_DSC_7258.jpg


With regards to the advancement of aviation in general, and particularly the genius involved in engineering the Thunderbolt, consider the complexity of the aircraft as a whole. While the reason for the incredible pace of innovation in aviation since World War I was obviously a second World War, it's simply astounding to consider the capabilities of the aircraft compared to WWI designs that were the pinnacle of the industry less than thirty years before.

The fighter aircraft of that era were constructed with wood and linen fabric, flew at altitudes generally less than 5,000', speeds close to 100 MPH, and had one or two primitive machine guns as armament. The P-47 could dogfight at altitudes over 20,000', exceeded 400 MPH doing it, had eight wing mounted Browning 50 caliber machine guns, and could also carry rockets or thousands of pounds of bombs under the wings.

I hope you enjoyed exploring the inner workings of the "Jug" as much as I have.

The museum website:

https://lynceans.org/all-posts/the-complexity-of-a-ww-ii-p-47-thunderbolts-powerplant/
 
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TITTIES AND BEER

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Out side of St George , Ut is a place called Sky Ranch ( Hurricane,Ut ) all kinds of hidden treasure in those hangers I did 3-4 of those places every place has a story a few sad a few killer . Lots of old stuff ;)
 

rrrr

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Looking at the photos of the P-47 and what was required to make it work, I think one of the most impressive things about the aircraft is that space for the huge components of the induction and exhaust system had to be engineered while still providing a fuselage structure that could support loads approaching 8 Gs.

Not only that, the overall aircraft had to outperform those of the enemy or provide tactical attack capabilities which would overwhelm his ground forces. The circumferential frames and longerons must have been incredibly stout, but since weight in a fighter aircraft is so critical, the designers couldn't just overengineer it.

Imagine all of the considerations taken into account; aerodynamic efficiency, adequate structural strength, space for the exhaust and induction system components, routing of flight control cables, fuel and hydraulic tubing, and of course weight.

Then consider the pressure of wartime exegicies. Contracts required unrealistic production demands. Materials, new aluminum alloys for instance, were being developed to provide advantages in weight and strength, but their properties might be unproven and therefore risky to design into the aircraft.

These problems were just part of the challenge faced by the American aircraft industry during the war.

New factories had to be built. Manufacturers were facing huge personnel shortages. Legions of engineers and plant workers were desperately needed. Aircraft couldn't be built unless thousands of subcontractors delivered products that were dimensionally accurate, functioned properly, and arrived on schedule.

I think everyone pretty much knows the story of how America's industries and workers turned out an incredible amount of military equipment during WWII, after starting from almost nothing, as the effects of the Depression were still very much evident in 1940. I found some figures to share that illustrate just a portion of that effort.

In 1940, American aircraft manufacturers built a total of 1,175 fighter aircraft, all of which had been designed at least five years earlier. They were not good airplanes. In 1943, just three years later, factories produced 23,621 fighters, and designs like the F6F Hellcat, P-38 Lightning, P-47 Thunderbolt, F4U Corsair, and P-51 Mustang were in full production and distribution to fighting forces. In 1944 those numbers increased to 38,838, before falling to 21,082 in 1945 as victory became certain.

Overall, United States aircraft production between 1940 and 1945 was 295,959, an astounding amount. Compare that to today. In 2019, there were 220,596 aircraft registered in the US, including all general aviation, corporate, and airline fleets.

I enjoy sharing stories and information about WWII. I have been studying it for about 40 years now. It's been one of my favorite pastimes. I hope you all enjoy them too.
 
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buck35

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I spent the last 20 years of my working life at an aluminum smelter. As a gm we were rotated thru the different areas in the plant. You were not allowed to have ball point pens in the potrooms or casthouse because some of the metal produced was used in aircraft and that little ball could lead to catastrophic failure in a part.
 

franky

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Thanks for sharing. I am going to go read this to my Dad today, he is 90 and digs this stuff. He served in the AF and then was Confederate Air Force for years. Reads all kind of WWII books.

I bet that cockpit was a hot crazy place when sitting on the runway with no air flow over those exhaust tubes......
 

zx14

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I’m surprised it could carry any armament if you think of how heavy the exhaust side of that turbo weighs. That thing is fricking huge. Was it just that inefficient? I would like to see a comparison in cfm moved of a turbo today that moves the same amount, maybe it not that different.
Great read, I always wondered why those planes where so fat.
 

OC Mike

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Great post. Thanks for sharing.
Never really wondered why it was so large, but now we know.
Got me thinking of the Corsair and the Hellcat.
Both used the PW 2800 and why weren't they as large.
Found this, clipped from Wikki...

Performance[edit]

The performance of the Corsair was superior to most of its contemporaries. The F4U-1 was considerably faster than the Grumman F6F Hellcat and only 13 mph (21 km/h) slower than the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt;[34][35][36] all three were powered by the R-2800. But while the P-47 achieved its highest speed at 30,020 feet (9,150 m) with the help of an intercooled turbocharger,[37] the F4U-1 reached its maximum speed at 19,900 ft (6,100 m),[38] and used a mechanically supercharged engine.[39

Now we know.........

Love this Stuff......
 

monkeyswrench

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And these punk-ass ricky racers are impressed with an 88mm or 100mm turbo...WWII boys were getting it handled:)

Great info. From both historical standpoint, and the history of Badasses.
 

Tank

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Really cool. I'm no airplane aficionado but I do love these old birds as much as the next guy. Made me wonder the difference in the Mustang compared to the Jug and started deep diving. Supercharged V16 compared to the turbo rotary reduced in the need for the large air frame. Pretty cool evolution.

Thanks for posting this.
 

zx14

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37D53808-8FE1-4B8A-AF63-B9CB56CA6CF8.png
780C3C66-9575-42AA-BB70-BC621E59753B.png
My buddies dad flew one in ww2 he past last year. But he had said it was a beast. This is him.
That photo at the beginning of the article is from his Fighter Group. Different Squadron 379th Yellow Nose, Red Tail Tip, 378th Blue Nose, Red Tail tip and my dads was 377th Red Nose, Red Tail Tip.
 
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Old Texan

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The engineering and manufacture alone are mindboggling. Perfecting it and making it successful in the short period they had, is amazing. We can still do these unbelievable feats but not without the computer technology those folks had no idea about. Makes it even more amazing.....
 

franky

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Whenever I hear a radial powered airplane flying over my house, I go tearing outside like some sorta idiot. It can be rewarding, last summer the CAF's B-29 FiFi flew right over my house as it was on a 10 mile final to KADS.

Suuuuper cool stuff!
And it looks like it is standing still in a the air
 

franky

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Whenever I hear a radial powered airplane flying over my house, I go tearing outside like some sorta idiot. It can be rewarding, last summer the CAF's B-29 FiFi flew right over my house as it was on a 10 mile final to KADS.

Suuuuper cool stuff!
I thought you were a west coaster
 

rrrr

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I’m surprised it could carry any armament if you think of how heavy the exhaust side of that turbo weighs. That thing is fricking huge. Was it just that inefficient? I would like to see a comparison in cfm moved of a turbo today that moves the same amount, maybe it not that different.
Great read, I always wondered why those planes where so fat.

The Jug and its power source were actually very efficient and allowed it to haul significant weight.

There's a good reason the turbocharger was so large. The displacement of the Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp engine in the P-47 was 2,800 cubic inches. At the R-2800-54's maximum RPM of 2,850, it moved over 200 lbs of air per minute.

A cubic foot of air weighs .0807 pounds. I found a data sheet for the GE B-2 turbocharger used in the R-2800 powered P-47, and to my surprise, it weighs just 135 lbs.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/b-type-turbos-pdf.286919/

Regarding armament and external stores, the Jug could carry a bunch. It had eight M2 Browning 50 caliber machine guns in the wings. Each M2 and its standard 350 round combat load of ball and tracer ammo weighed about 200 lbs each, or 1,600 lbs for all eight. The aircraft could also carry 10 five inch rockets or bombs with a weight limit of 2,500 lbs. A 200 gallon belly tank weighed 1,435 lbs. when full. All of the above totaled 5,535 lbs.

The all-up weight of a combat loaded and fully fueled P-47D was 17,500 lbs. As a comparison, a Cessna Sovereign+, classified as a super midsize business jet, weighs 18,200 lbs empty, and carries a two man crew and twelve passengers.

New-Sovereign-cropped.jpg


sovereign_interior.jpg
 
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monkeyswrench

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The Jug and its power source were actually very efficient and allowed it to haul significant weight.

There's a good reason the turbocharger was so large. The displacement of the Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp engine in the P-47 was 2,800 cubic inches. At the R-2800-54's maximum RPM of 2,850, it moved over 200 lbs of air per minute.

A cubic foot of air weighs .0807 pounds. I found a data sheet for the GE B-2 turbocharger used in the R-2800 powered P-47, and to my surprise, it weighs just 135 lbs.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/b-type-turbos-pdf.286919/

Regarding armament and external stores, the Jug could carry a bunch. It had eight M2 Browning 50 caliber machine guns in the wings. Each M2 and its standard 350 round combat load of ball and tracer ammo weighed about 200 lbs each, or 1,600 lbs for all eight. The aircraft could also carry 10 five inch rockets or bombs with a weight limit of 2,500 lbs. A 200 gallon belly tank weighed 1,435 lbs. when full. All of the above totaled 5,535 lbs.

The all-up weight of a combat loaded and fully fueled P-47D was 17,500 lbs. As a comparison, a Cessna Sovereign+, classified as a super midsize business jet, weighs 18,200 lbs empty, and carries a two man crew and twelve passengers.

New-Sovereign-cropped.jpg


sovereign_interior.jpg
As nice and comfortable as that Cessna looks, I can't help but think I'd rather own a P-47...the roar of a turbocharged radial engine, the nose high stance on the ground...I guess it's kind of like the difference between those who would prefer an old hot rod to a new Mercedes. The new Mercedes may be faster, and much more comfortable, but lacks any sense of historical masculinity.

Then again, my opinion may be swayed a bit if you find me a Mercedes with eight .50 cal belt feds...
 

Dkahnjob

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Thanks for sharing the info. I had no idea that there was so much going on inside and under a Jug.
Great info.
 

rrrr

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Thanks for sharing. I am going to go read this to my Dad today, he is 90 and digs this stuff. He served in the AF and then was Confederate Air Force for years. Reads all kind of WWII books.

I bet that cockpit was a hot crazy place when sitting on the runway with no air flow over those exhaust tubes......

I did some more reading, and found a website that said when the engine was leaned out and producing maximum power, the first few feet of the primary exhausts downstream from the engine collector header glowed cherry red.

I'm not sure about it, but I'd guess the exhaust system piping running through the fuselage must have been insulated with asbestos wrapping. Exhaust gas temperatures exceed 1,600° F during peak engine performance, and the melting point of 6061 T6 aluminum is between 1,000 and 1,200 °F.
 
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