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"Without electricity, your generation is nothin'." or What are your plans today?

TPC

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Not sure what generators you already have. But a Honda EU 7000 would run the house (no AC in house. Maybe the garage mini splits)

Plus you can take that to the desert, run your merchandise trailer, power your stage at desert storm etc.


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Beware! The Honda eu7000i only has 30 amp receptacles:


You want the 50 AMP receptacle to power the house:



BTW: The Honda is 5500 running watts, the Powerhorse is 6500 running watts. A BFD.
Delivered the Honda is twice the price.
 
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TPC

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Driving around my neighborhood I see the big pallet/small pallet set out by peoples trash. That's how the generator is shipped. Our electrician lives on the corner and word is spreading around how we did it.
Complete blackout conditions for several blocks and people see our house all lit up not hearing a generator running, big screen TV in the living room on and word traveled fast.
 

HBCraig

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Post a photo of the panel if you have a chance.

With arc fault breakers panel swaps have gone up. 3k is a fair price assuming there’s no wild patching, repairs needed etc.

We do a lot of Siemens and Square D


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Here it is

@lbhsbz
@TPC
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Taboma

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Beware! The Honda eu7000i only has 30 amp receptacles:


You want the 50 AMP receptacle to power the house:



BTW: The Honda is 5500 running watts, the Powerhorse is 6500 running watts. A BFD.
Delivered the Honda is twice the price.
Yes but if you purchase two + the parallel kit, then you get the magic box with the 50A 240V receptacle. Not sure why they'd give you a 50A receptacle for 29FLA @ 240V and 23A Rated @ 240V ---

But I get your point with the Powerhorse, but you're still not getting close to 50A @ 240V, even if they give you a receptacle. If they're good and not to loud, why not ??
 

Uncle Dave

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If you haven't put in a transfer switch yet take a look at a product called generlink. Its really a better alternative than dealing with a Xfer sitch.

I fixed the electricity problem at my place.

When you have a well pump and black tank pump and need to go several days in 100 degree weather a natural gas powered 20K unit works well.


IMG_1105.jpeg
 

TPC

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Yes but if you purchase two + the parallel kit, then you get the magic box with the 50A 240V receptacle. Not sure why they'd give you a 50A receptacle for 29FLA @ 240V and 23A Rated @ 240V ---

But I get your point with the Powerhorse, but you're still not getting close to 50A @ 240V, even if they give you a receptacle. If they're good and not to loud, why not ??
Easy to get confused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but:
240V: Isn't that 29 amps per phase X2 where the other: 120V is single phase at 23 AMPS X1?

50 AMP: I have two separate 29 amp "legs" feeding the panel divided evenly 50/50 staggered feed between the breakers. 58 AMPS potential total.
30 AMP: I have one 23 amp "leg" feeding all the breakers. 23 amps potential total.

Two Honda 7000's are $10.000.00!
May as well go dedicated Generac or save a ton of money and parallel another Powerhouse 7500.

It runs the house with ease.
Washer running while using the microwave,, TV's on it barely comes off low idle.

This is giving me a headache and I may have it all wrong so don't take the above as fact. Most my memory was wiped out and deleted with CHEMO and age and being out of the business so long.

240V two phase in North America is called single phase. Damfino why. Probably because it's 240V measured phase to phase.
In Europe its called 2 phase if I remember correctly probably because it's 480V measured phase to phase.
I may remember it all wrong.
I digress.
 
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Taboma

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Easy to get confused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but:
240V: Isn't that 29 amps per phase X2 where the other: 120V is single phase at 23 AMPS X1?

50 AMP: I have two separate 29 amp "legs" feeding the panel divided evenly 50/50 staggered feed between the breakers. 58 AMPS potential total.
30 AMP: I have one 23 amp "leg" feeding all the breakers. 23 amps potential total.

Two Honda 7000's are $10.000.00!
May as well go dedicated Generac or save a ton of money and parallel another Powerhouse 7500.

It runs the house with ease.
Washer running while using the microwave,, TV's on it barely comes off low idle.

This is giving me a headache and I may have it all wrong so don't take the above as fact. Most my memory was wiped out and deleted with CHEMO and age and being out of the business so long.

240V two phase in North America is called single phase. Damfino why. Probably because it's 240V measured phase to phase.
In Europe its called 2 phase if I remember correctly probably because it's 480V measured phase to phase.
I may remember it all wrong.
I digress.

The Honda 7000I will provide you with a max of 29 Amps on each phase or leg of 240V / 120 4 wire 30 amp receptacle = 7000 watts, or a continuous rated load of 23 amps per phase at 240V / 120V 4 wire 30 amp receptacle = 5500 Watts.
The generator is not configured to provide 5500 Watts or 46 amps at 120V and I have no idea what you'd use it for if it did.

If however, you spend a total of $ 10,000 which should include the parallel kit ( Good God I'd hope so 🥴 ) you can be the proud owner of the paralleling cable AND at no extra cost, a cute box with two wattage meters and a nice shiny 50 Amp 240 / 120 4 wire receptacle. Now that receptacle is going to have a max load of 14,000 Watts = 58 Amps, like for starting, but the rated load is 11,000 Watts = 46 Amps per phase.

And NO despite 50 years in both the American electrical system and some time spent with the German system, I have no idea why two phases are referred to as single phase, yet three phases is in fact three phases --- but I can tell you this, I think the German 220V 50 Hz cycle hurts more than our 240V 60 Hz when you're careless --- although I really didn't try to grasp it long enough to be absolutely positive about that. But working things hot with our 120V is for sure less intimidating. 😁

I'm not sure if I answered your questions, or exactly what your questions were. But hey, we know in this reality, intentions are nice, but only results count. 👍
 

hallett21

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50 amp hook up only matters if your generator can make that kind of power.

7000-7500 watts is only getting you 29-31 amps running wide open


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hallett21

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50 amp hook up only matters if your generator can make that kind of power.

7000-7500 is only getting you 29-31 amps running wide open


Watts divided by 240v = amps per phase.


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FUN4ME

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That shouldn't matter should it? May be wrong but but I think:

The generator hook up is pretty much it's own separate panel with it's own breakers. It bypasses the old panel when the switches are on generator setting.
The switches decide one panel (your old one) or the other/ line power or generator. Ya still use your old panel when not using the generator.

View attachment 961612

I'll eventually bring in solar. SCE isn't cooperating. Kids say their is a glut of solar that SCE isn't happy about.
We're hitting tier 3 rates in the summer and what once was a $95 monthly electric bill for decades is now $350.
Who makes this electrical box with the transfer switches built in?
Thanks Erich
 

Uncle Dave

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Who makes this electrical box with the transfer switches built in?
Thanks Erich
look at the generlink - it attaches behind the meter head and you use your existing panel.

 

MillerTime

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You guys might check out the Duromax dual fuel generators. They seem to have great reviews. You can get on Amazon or Lowe's can order them (thats where i ordered from)
I got one a couple weeks ago and got the 13,000 surge with 10,500 running on gas, little less on propane. I think puts out a continuous 43 amps and does have a 50 amp plug on it. I just started it a couple nights ago and haven't gotten a 50 amp connection placed on my transfer switch yet, still only have a 30amp.
They are about $1,400 plus tax and you can get extended warranty thru Lowe's if you order thru them.
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Uncle Dave

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So at 5250 watts out it uses 24 gallons of gas a day.
I cant find a THD # on it?
 

Uncle Dave

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Read the fine print...@50% load.
Right - rated load is 10500 /2 = 5250 for 50% load

Said runtime at @ 50% load is 8 hours

one tank of gas is 8.3 gallon.

8x3=24 (24.9)

You basically need 5- 5ers of gas per 24 period.

at 3.2 $ gallon x24 gallons its about 75 bones a day (at 50% load)

What am I missing?
 
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Uncle Dave

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At those levels a diesel generator? LOL :p
This is the thing - in a multi day power outage running a 10K gas generator you've got a lot of feeding the beast.

That Genny wants an oil change every 20 hours which means you end up doing it every day.

Lots of guys dont run 24/7 but run something like an 18/6 , and or scale back and run a lil genny at night like a 2 -3K inverter or equivalent to keep the fridges running and the lights, furnace fans the going and ramp the noise and consumption way down, but you are maintaining 2 crankcases/ valves etcetera.

Every 12.5 days (300 hours) of runtime you need to inspect the valve lash on that 10500.
 

MillerTime

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This is the thing - in a multi day power outage running a 10K gas generator you've got a lot of feeding the beast.

That Genny wants an oil change every 20 hours which means you end up doing it every day.

Lots of guys dont run 24/7 but run something like an 18/6 , and or scale back and run a lil genny at night like a 2 -3K inverter or equivalent to keep the fridges running and the lights, furnace fans the going and ramp the noise and consumption way down, but you are maintaining 2 crankcases/ valves etcetera.

Every 12.5 days (300 hours) of runtime you need to inspect the valve lash on that 10500.
Its like you read the manual
Correct on all accounts!
We lost power for 12 days from an ice storm in October. We went and stayed with the inlaws and used a little genny for the deep freeze and a fridge.
My brother brought at 9500 watt max genny and they ran it about 16 hours a day. It cost a bunch in fuel to do it. But he was able to run his well and an electric water heater and his gas furnace.
I have an extra 500 gallon propane tank at the shop that I plan to bring home. That should make it a little easier to deal with, but still won't be cheap, and we loose some amperage on propane.
Any generator is gonna burn some fuel tho. I heard a friends generac 13k or 15k was using about 2.5 gallons of propane an hour running their house.

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MillerTime

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At those levels a diesel generator? LOL :p
That was my original plan when we built our house and had a 400 amp transfer switch installed. I figured I could find an Oilfield genny cheap, but.....this $1400 one should get us by for most situations

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mesquito_creek

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I am going the silent route and just ordered 18000 wh of 48v batteries and a 6000 watt inverter. I will start with about a 2400 watt solar array and scale up from there. Totally off grid on my 4 acres at lake Powell... I figure if I can live in a boat for a week at a time totally isolated from the grid I can figure out a way to power a stationary rv/trailer. It all new to me having never attempted anything like this but I am all in at this point. The utility wants 7000 dollars for the priveledge of sending me a bill for the rest of my life plus another 14k in meter equipment etc.. so I am rebelling and told them to pound sand.
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Taboma

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look at the generlink - it attaches behind the meter head and you use your existing panel.


Not sure where you're located. Squeezer posted this Generlink adaptor on page 1 of this discussion --- Generlink is not allowed in CA, at least with any major power providers. If you notice, the utility (SCE, PGE, SDG&E) places seals not only on the meter, but on the meter section. This is their area and as such locked off, your area begins at the main breaker.

Generlink in CA.JPG
 

Uncle Dave

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Not sure where you're located. Squeezer posted this Generlink adaptor on page 1 of this discussion --- Generlink is not allowed in CA, at least with any major power providers. If you notice, the utility (SCE, PGE, SDG&E) places seals not only on the meter, but on the meter section. This is their area and as such locked off, your area begins at the main breaker.

View attachment 962437
Missed squeezes reply sorry -

LADWP was ok with it but thats city owned not investor owned.

I've seen a few of them here on PGE meters so I'm not sure what gives, too bad saves a lot fo money.
 

Berdes

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That shouldn't matter should it? May be wrong but but I think:

The generator hook up is pretty much it's own separate panel with it's own breakers. It bypasses the old panel when the switches are on generator setting.
The switches decide one panel (your old one) or the other/ line power or generator. Ya still use your old panel when not using the generator.

View attachment 961612

I'll eventually bring in solar. SCE isn't cooperating. Kids say their is a glut of solar that SCE isn't happy about.
We're hitting tier 3 rates in the summer and what once was a $95 monthly electric bill for decades is now $350.
You may want to rethink the solar anyway if the same rules apply there as jersey. The solar shuts down in a power outage via the inverter to stop feeding into the grid for so called safety reasons. Have no idea why it can't be wired like a whole house generator with automatic isolation, but I'm told that's the "LAW"! I had installed enough panels to power the entire house before finding that little fact out. Finally out of jersey now to a saner area.
 

Taboma

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Missed squeezes reply sorry -

LADWP was ok with it but thats city owned not investor owned.

I've seen a few of them here on PGE meters so I'm not sure what gives, too bad saves a lot fo money.
I must admit, not a way as a retired sparky how I'd do it, especially hanging that much weight, plus then a cord, off that meter flange. Also, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of how it serves as a disconnecting means and the potential for injury or death to linemen working upstream. Obviously a true transfer switch provides a positive means of disconnect.
 

Uncle Dave

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I must admit, not a way as a retired sparky how I'd do it, especially hanging that much weight, plus then a cord, off that meter flange. Also, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of how it serves as a disconnecting means and the potential for injury or death to linemen working upstream. Obviously a true transfer switch provides a positive means of disconnect.
It's done with mirrors.....I was skeptical as well, but after getting a firsthand glimpse of the thing I was impressed.
Cool thing is you have access and use your house panel to regulate loads, but aren't hardwired out like a pony panel will do to you.
Its disconnect and reconnect is internal and automatic. My beef if you could call it that is that you really need a 240V genset.

I got by with a 120v 3K Yamaha using a 30 amp connector and manual switch for decades. The 240V stuff in my la house could wait.
When you say a "true transfer switch" what do you mean? an entire secondary panel broken off from the grid ? ....or a pony panel?

You used be be able to get away with an interlock but I think the gendarmes have a problem with that now.
 
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Uncle Dave

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That was my original plan when we built our house and had a 400 amp transfer switch installed. I figured I could find an Oilfield genny cheap, but.....this $1400 one should get us by for most situations

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oil field engines are sweet - little rough moving them around.

Grandad had a lister 12/2 flywheel diesel that had million of hours on it.
 

Uncle Dave

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I am going the silent route and just ordered 18000 wh of 48v batteries and a 6000 watt inverter. I will start with about a 2400 watt solar array and scale up from there. Totally off grid on my 4 acres at lake Powell... I figure if I can live in a boat for a week at a time totally isolated from the grid I can figure out a way to power a stationary rv/trailer. It all new to me having never attempted anything like this but I am all in at this point. The utility wants 7000 dollars for the priveledge of sending me a bill for the rest of my life plus another 14k in meter equipment etc.. so I am rebelling and told them to pound sand.
Whose inverter?
 

Uncle Dave

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You may want to rethink the solar anyway if the same rules apply there as jersey. The solar shuts down in a power outage via the inverter to stop feeding into the grid for so called safety reasons. Have no idea why it can't be wired like a whole house generator with automatic isolation, but I'm told that's the "LAW"! I had installed enough panels to power the entire house before finding that little fact out. Finally out of jersey now to a saner area.
"The law" is a cop out answer, and only partially truthful.

I can be wired that way, but its extremely uncommon without battery as a buffer.
The new gen inviters can be had with a subset of your roof as emergency power - like 2K out of 5. A 2K kick out per se.

What you are referring to is "grid tied solar", which typically goes down in a power outage. Tis is what almost everyone has if you are already on grid.

Off grid setup is different this uses solar to charge batteries that you then invert from DC - AC.

Some of the new inviters like the outback skybox, and the Sol ARK can do both, as well as tie in a genny.
 
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FUN4ME

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look at the generlink - it attaches behind the meter head and you use your existing panel.


Kind a joking kinda not...

What if i installed this behind my solar generation meter? I think it would kill my solar while the generator is running but that shouldnt be a problem. The generator is a 15kw diesel 220v.

Pictures solar meter is on the right.
Solar meter has 2 15amp tied together and 2 20 amp tied together.

Thanks everyone
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FUN4ME

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I should add i am with SCE so i dont think i can add that behind their meter
 

94Nautique

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Good thing Newsom wants to have 100% of cars sold in CA to be electric. The grid is totally ready for millions more cars. These power outages will be weekly... 🤦‍♂️
 

Taboma

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It's done with mirrors.....I was skeptical as well, but after getting a firsthand glimpse of the thing I was impressed.
Cool thing is you have access and use your house panel to regulate loads, but aren't hardwired out like a pony panel will do to you.
Its disconnect and reconnect is internal and automatic. My beef if you could call it that is that you really need a 240V genset.

I got by with a 120v 3K Yamaha using a 30 amp connector and manual switch for decades. The 240V stuff in my la house could wait.
When you say a "true transfer switch" what do you mean? an entire secondary panel broken off from the grid ? ....or a pony panel?

You used be be able to get away with an interlock but I think the gendarmes have a problem with that now.
What I meant by a "True Transfer Switch", was simply the double pole (Residential) double throw mechanical design. It's not mechanically possible for the switch to make contact with both inputs simultaneously. It's also break before make, so it disconnects from one input (Line power) prior to making contact with the second (Generator).

Regardless if the transfer is the entire main panel, a dedicated priority (Emergency) panel, or transferring individual circuits as with TPC's Reliance Gen Panel. The switch mechanics are the same, either double pole, double throw, or single pole, double throw (Like TPC's example).

The one CON I have with whole house transfer, or the Generlink type, is having a means for determining when the line power is restored. If you're just transfering an "E" panel, to your gen, then you can leave a light on from your main to alert you when power is restored.

I wish I could find a diagram that shows the positive disconnecting means provided with the Generlink, just because I enjoy knowing how electrical components function.
I can only assume it's a mechanical function, but I couldn't find any info on their web site.
 

mesquito_creek

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Whose inverter?
either victron/growatt/mppsolar... there is a massive run on all three and hard to find because everyone is going crazy with this off the grid stuff right now... my local solar shop has a pair of mppsolars 3000 split phase kits to get me to 6000 and I can add more pairs to get me to 12000 and up if needed.
The batteries can go to 8 units in parallel for about 48000 watt hours of storage and the 6000 watt inverter pair can do 8000 watts of panels...
You can add more inverter in parallel and keep stepping up from 6k to 12k etc

if I have to run more than 1 AC unit for more than a day with a generator I will leave and go somewhere cooler!! Lol

but to answer your question I have mpp solar inverters on hold with my solar shop but I still could change my mind. The batteries are a done deal...
 
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