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World team selection

AFUEL7067

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How will the world team be selected this year I remember reading it was changed to a overall points.If so when do the points start to count ,is it team points driver skier observer or just skier points alone ?skifaster wildone anybody know for sure? thanks
 

MrWarpath

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It is points only for the skier and the points started from Parker last year and will finish at Pittsburg in May this year. A skier can drop 3 of there worst point scores for there total. Real simple and no BS
 

AFUEL7067

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thank you Mike that is what I thought I read ........
 

Crazyhippy

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Does it matter what class is skied?

ie. Can I race veteran mens for the season, and then decide that I want to beat Mr. Mawer in F1, so I'm going to count my points for mens open instead?


Something something Tapatalk
 

AFUEL7067

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If you skied in class X in 2010 and it wasnt a class considered at the worlds and decided to switch to class D in 2011 which is reconized at the worlds could you transfer your points ?
 

work2ski

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I think you have to accumulate points in the class you want to compete in. Don't think you can transfer point from 1 class to another.
 
S

SKI AND RACE MARINE

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You can get points in any class fro worlds. If you are going for F2 you can ski any class But you have to Ski behind a F2 boat and you would only get point for those races
 
S

SKI AND RACE MARINE

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I think you have to accumulate points in the class you want to compete in. Don't think you can transfer point from 1 class to another.

For F2 points you have to ski behind a F2 boat any class.
 

AFUEL7067

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Can you direct me as to where I can read that rule . Seems like a strange rule to me thanks for your response......
 

OHHH YAAA

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It would have been nice if they did this in 2003 when Justin Soller and I finished first and second in F2 season points, and got to watch the worlds from the beach.:skull
 

OHHH YAAA

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LOL still a little bitter, but i'm in therapy, and it's getting better! :D
 

OHHH YAAA

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No worries. Thought I would throw 2 cents out there. I am glad the selection process changed. I agree with you about the read.
 

ikester

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From the 2010 NWSRA Rule Book.............
Read the highlighted sections. It does not say that you can transfer points from one class to another.


XXVI. WORLD TEAM SELECTION PROCEDURES
1. The selection committee shall convene prior to the World Water Ski
Championships. This committee shall consist of:
A. one (1) representative from Region I and two (2) representatives from
Region II.
B. the International Chairperson
C. the World Team Captain
2. Applications will be sent to prospective World Team skiers a minimum of
three weeks prior to the selection. Applications must be returned to the
representative designated on the application no later than 10 days prior to
the selection.
3. Method of selection:
A. Overall finishes in all USAWS / NWSRA Sanction point marathons beginning
with the first race the year prior to the world championships.
B. For world team selection purposes, Formula 1 and 2 Men skiers must
race in Heat A and Formula 1 and 2 Women skiers must race in Heat
B. The Formula 1 and 2 teams shall consist of 3 men and 1 reserve, 3
women and 1 reserve, two junior boys and 2 junior girls. Upon selection
to the World Team, all skiers (Formula 1, Formula 2 and Juniors)
must participate in all remaining NWSRA sanctioned marathons prior
to the World Competition. Skiers may be excused from a marathon
prior to the World Championships, after selection, with approval from
the NWSRA Executive Board.
C. Past international racing experience to be considered.

page 43
D. May be from any open, age or boat class.
E. Skier selection will be done on an accumulated points basis only. All
points earned in sanctioned points marathons during the selection
period preceeding the World Championships. Skier can throw out 20%
of the races.

F. Ability to represent the United States with dignity and pride.
G. All skiers seeking consideration for the selection of the World Team
must race in qualifying races for the next World Championships behind
a boat which is legal to race in a World Championships in their category,
abiding by all boat requirement rules stated in the IWWF Racing
Rule book.
5. If a skier declines their position, the decision is effective immediately. The
skier?s declination of their position is final and the next eligible skier will be
moved into the vacated position.
 

cking

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Yes, it does not say that you cannot transfer points from, say, senior men to men's open, but there is no rule that says you cannot. For years skiers have been selected for the world team while skiing in other categories. There have even been skiers who have skied formula 2 all season but have applied for a position on the formula 1 team. Even though I may not believe it is very nice, it is not against the rules.
 

AFUEL7067

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It at also says you must qualify using the correct boat for the class you are applying for..... It doesnt say you can run 1 race behind F1 boats in the vets class and throw those points out when you switch to a f2 boat in vets class and qualify for F2.

Also a F2 boat is only a F2 boat when its ran in F2. A F2 boat is inspected for class rules a vet class boat is inspected for safety...
 

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Also a F2 boat is only a F2 boat when its ran in F2. A F2 boat is inspected for class rules a vet class boat is inspected for safety...[/QUOTE]

That is one of the funniest things said yet.

Funny funny funny.
 

cking

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The rules states that you must behind a world championships legal boat, therefore points gained while skiing behind an illegal boat are not qualified. I understand what you are saying but this has been done before, and now that many people have an issue about, it's not allowed?

A rule was proposed a few years back for skiers to declare a class far before selection because of shenanigans like this but the board turned it down because why limit the skiers that could qualify for selection if they are in fact better. I'm not saying that the skiers I believe we are talking about are better then the other, I just want to be clear of the intent of the board. The selection process is meant to send the best team possible.

As for scrutineering, there is no difference in how boats were scrutineered last year, and there hasn't been a F2 scrutineering since I can remember...
 

AFUEL7067

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Cking it clearly states legal in their category not world legal. Also lets say they never inspect F2 boats thats fine but a F2 skier could protest another F2 in its class correct , how can you protest a boat in vets that may or may not be legal if you dont know your racing against them ? Also It comes up thats what happened before ,I thought 2010 was the year of Change it appears 2011 is the year of SOS...
 

AFUEL7067

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Cking it clearly states legal in their category not world legal. Also lets say they never inspect F2 boats thats fine but a F2 skier could protest another F2 in its class correct , how can you protest a boat in vets that may or may not be legal if you dont know your racing against them ? Also It comes up thats what happened before ,I thought 2010 was the year of Change it appears 2011 is the year of SOS...

G. All skiers seeking consideration for the selection of the World Team
must race in qualifying races for the next World Championships behind
a boat which is legal to race in a World Championships in their category,
abiding by all boat requirement rules stated in the IWWF Racing
Rule book.


Category is the key word......
 

138

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As for scrutineering, there is no difference in how boats were scrutineered last year, and there hasn't been a F2 scrutineering since I can remember...[/QUOTE]

As stated Saturday before the races by Dusty Schulz (VP of NWSRA and IWSF Racing Council President), we do not have the time or man power to scrutineer F2 boats. He also stated that he knows that there are boats that are probably not F2 legal and has talked to a local mechanic that has worked on F2 boats in the USA. If the IWSF Race Council President, the highest up in worlds water ski racing is saying this, then we really do not have an F2 class we have a single outboard boat class. With this attitude, it seems we have made the one class that could be affordable to the everyday racer only affordable to a select few. Furthermore, in my opinion there should be minimum weight but that is another topic.

Just because we don?t scrutineer doesn?t mean that we shouldn?t be. Might as well say cheating is winning. If you went to Belgium you already have a taste of that in your mouth.

I for one think if we cannot control the one affordable boat class in our sport in the USA, we will not have this sport here very soon.

P.S. I think I told you this thread was going to be fun.
 

138

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By the way, who shortened the course at Parker? The longest woman skier Sunday skied for 33 min 26 sec and the longest man skied for 39 min 28 sec. We do know that world?s is an hour plus a lap? Why are even picking a team with such short races?

I know I know - there are other skiers out on the course other than world team hopefuls but they could finish and pull to the inside of the course and let the world team hopefuls finish out the full time. If we truly want to compete at that world championship level and choose the correct people for the team, then I think we are doing a disservice to our team by not being the most prepared that the U.S. could possibly be.
 

MrWarpath

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Look the bottom line is that you can not ski behind a bunch of boats in the vets class even if one of them is an F-2 and then this year say I am sking F-2 and bring my points. That is completely unfair to all involved because they would not know to race you at any time because you are in a different class. The rules you are talking about were made for a SELECTION not a points only deal. Also that rule was for the F-1 class because there was no F-2 when it was writen.

We as a group need to do what is right for the sport and not what works out for one !! What the HELL has happened to SPORTSMANSHIP ??? We made it points only to stop the BS and here we are with BS. If you want to race in F-2 then sign up sack up and thumb up if you want to race in F-1 do the same only faster........:)........
 

skifaster

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It is unfortunate that any time the World Team gets brought up, there always is negativity surrounding it. Bitterness from previous selections, speculated favoritisms, etc. Whatever the reason, it is a shame. Instead of supporting the team that represents our country, those that aren?t selected shun the team and the sport creating a wedge in the sport that isn?t necessary. Although I compete with World Team aspirations and that is my focus, I also realize that the World Team should not be the focus of the sport of ski racing. Currently the sport has a higher majority of participants with a world team focus, but that doesn?t mean the sport should cater to the World Team. That just shows the sport needs to do a better job of attracting those that just want to race and have a good time. Grassroots and the Puddingstone days are a step in the right direction. But that is a separate topic and I don?t mean to get sidetracked.

Up until this year, the US Team had been selected by a committee. As much as people complain and the controversy that came of this process, the process worked as the US has won more team titles than any other country. The record speaks for itself. Of course there has always been controversy and if points was used the teams would have been very different most likely. In fact, in 2005 and 2007 Todd Haig probably wouldn?t have made the team either time and he Won a World Championship in 2005 and Silver in 2007, winning 2 of 3 races he finished. After all these years and success of the US team, the controversy had weighed enough on people that it was decided that ?A POINTS? system would be used. Keep in mind that it was determined ?A POINTS? system would be used, not a specific, detailed, spelled out points system. So in an effort to remove the subjective nature of a committee by going to points, thus removing controversy of the selection process, a whole new controversy has begun.

Although I don?t believe a points system will always pick the best available team, I do see that it was time to use a points system to eliminate controversy caused by a selection committee. A well thought out point system could put it in black and white how to make the team. Get enough points and you are in. If you don?t, you are out. No divisive wedge, no speculation on favoritism, bitterness, etc. However that opportunity failed when the first race at Parker in 2010 came and went without a clear definition on how to make the US Team. ?A POINTS? system was to be determined by June of 2010, however that didn?t happen. So all we knew for all of 2010 was that the team would be picked on points, but didn?t know what the points system would be and how many races would be dropped. This is equivalent to the NFL going 10 games into their 16 game season, then determining how teams would make the playoffs.

The intent to go to a points system was good, the process has not been fully thought out and should not have been implemented the way it was. The process simply wasn?t and still isn?t ready. It will need to be fixed for 2013, but the bed has been made for 2011 from what I understand.

As far as legal boats, that is an extremely slippery slope, especially when dealing with F2 boats. Unfortunately, as Dusty said, the man power simply isn?t there to ensure 100% that an F2 boat is 100% legal. To do it right, you need someone from the factory to inspect the motors, reset the computer, whatever it is they do to ensure a level playing field. We can?t get patrols, scorers, helpers, etc. let alone pay for a representative from each manufacture to come out and inspect each motor. You would need a Mercury guy and an Evinrude guy at each race and that currently isn?t practical. Should it be done, absolutely, but it isn?t realistic currently when the budget for it isn?t there. The sport is better off spending time/money on grassroots events and entry level classes than paying mercury and evinrude to come out and inspect boats.

The way the rule is currently set up to make the team, you need to ski behind a boat that is legal for F2 if you wish to make F2, and a legal boat for F1 if you wish to ski F1. If your desire is to make the womens or mens F2 team, you can ski whatever class you want, as long as you are skiing behind an F2 boat. If you skied a race, or races, behind an inboard or v-drive and want to make the F2 team, the races you skied behind a non-F2 boat would be dropped. Pretty simple. Many people have made the F1 team by skiing a class other than Mens or Womens Open. As long as they aren?t skiing behind an illegal boat, it shouldn?t matter. Mr Warpath is correct in saying that rule was written for F1, now with the F2 class, it is yet another loop hole that needs to be clarified going forward.

We can split hairs on what boats are legal and what aren?t, then we will create and even larger divisive wedge as I believe there are two F1 boats that aren?t technically ?legal? for F1 at the Worlds. I don?t think anyone will argue that the current system is flawed and undefined. Lots of loopholes. This all goes back to what I said previously, choosing on points was implemented too soon without thinking it through and clearly defining a system/process. Now we have the same controversy that a points system was meant to reduce/eliminate.

The bottom line as I see it is this, every skier puts the bindings on one foot at a time. If you want to make the team, beat the person lined up next to you and do it consistently. If you don?t beat the person, you shouldn?t be picked or have more points than them anyway.

Sorry for the rant
 

ikester

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You still need to know who you are racing and what class they are racing! It makes a difference.

You race people in your class different than you would race someone in that is not in your class.

You cannot allow people to transfer points from one class to another.

Why even have age classes, boat classes, veterans mens/womens, F2, Juniors, ect.......???????
 

skifaster

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You still need to know who you are racing and what class they are racing! It makes a difference.

You race people in your class different than you would race someone in that is not in your class.

You cannot allow people to transfer points from one class to another.

Why even have age classes, boat classes, veterans mens/womens, F2, Juniors, ect.......???????

Australia picks their team on points. But they have actual seletion races for the sole purpose of them being used for selection. In other words, they only have F1, F2, and Juniors. So they don't have this problem. The sport is not big enough here to justify "selection only" events. So we have people competing to be selected in our "marathons" which have multiple classes so anyone can participate. Often times someone has skied an age class and been selected for the F1 team. With F2, that has thrown another wrinkle into it.

But lets be honest, In most of the womens marathons these days there are about 10-14 boats in a race. 5-6 of switch are F2 boats. You know who you are racing.

That being said, classes should be declared in fairness and sportsmanship. But since that hasn't been ironed out yet, just beat the person you are racing against and it is a non-issue.

Just to be clear, I am not a board member and didn't vote for this, I am just spewing out my opinion.
 

skifaster

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You still need to know who you are racing and what class they are racing! It makes a difference.

You race people in your class different than you would race someone in that is not in your class.

You cannot allow people to transfer points from one class to another.

Why even have age classes, boat classes, veterans mens/womens, F2, Juniors, ect.......???????

sorry, one more thing. Points aren't being transferred from one class to another from what I understand of the situation. Points are simply being considered for selection. That is completely different than the marathon season hi points calculations. As it stands with the current rules, there is nothing wrong with that.
In the future it should be fixed where people delcare if they want to be considered for the world team though.
 

138

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What I hear is cheat but do not move class..

Fun fun fun
 

138

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wow very quiet... Also very funny.
 

skifaster

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What I hear is cheat but do not move class..

Fun fun fun

Carl, its easy to say the alleged cheating needs to be stopped. Its another thing to actually stop it. I think everyone is in favor of keeping it from happening, the problem is how to execute that. If someone in the class was willing to put up the money to get mercury and evinrude to show up at a race and test each motor, I don't think anyone would be against that. Mercury has already said they wouldn't want to show up unless other manufactures are there as well. They don't want a legal Merc to get beat by an illegal Evinrude. Personally I think the association is better off saving that money and putting it towards a grassroots event at Puddingstone to grow the sport. Having put on events in the past, it is tough to make money. A perfect example will be the race at Lake Elsinore. Unfortunately that event will likely lose money which is why we haven't raced there the last 2 years.
 

138

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Please?how many 300xs motors do we have running in the US right now? A five year old can tell the difference with most stock and non stock items on Evinrudes and Mercs... poppet valve diverters, modified gear case, spacer plates. An inspection should take less than 3 minutes. Shouldn?t affect any money being put toward grass-roots either.
Without these easily identified modifications, a hot computer won?t get you there on it?s own.
Lets try a picture comparison...is the one on the right or the one on the left a stock part? Let me tell you a secret, one of them is not stock.
 

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AFUEL7067

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Morning g man..... ski racing in America has definetly prospered from sending the best to the worlds....Promote F2 to get participation up and potentially dont send the skiers who participate.Could be why there is only 20 boats left? The rules being quoted had nothing to do with F2 they were written to allow a fast class skier who finished in the top 4 or so overall not just in his or her class a chance to be considered along with the open skiers for the worlds ,F1 and F2 didnt even exist.
 
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Please?how many 300xs motors do we have running in the US right now? A five year old can tell the difference with most stock and non stock items on Evinrudes and Mercs... poppet valve diverters, modified gear case, spacer plates. An inspection should take less than 3 minutes. Shouldn?t affect any money being put toward grass-roots either.
Without these easily identified modifications, a hot computer won?t get you there on it?s own.
Lets try a picture comparison...is the one on the right or the one on the left a stock part? Let me tell you a secret, one of them is not stock.

I pick the one on the Left to be stock.
 

138

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Good boy John good boy John. Is he the only one out of the 300 views that have looked at the pic that can figure this out?
 

Crazyhippy

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138,

So you're saying any shop capable of working on hi-po race outboards would be able to look them over in 5-10 minutes and catch 75% of the cheating? So it doesn't take a high dollar merc/evinrude factory rep (factory reps might catch that last 25% granted)?

Interesting...


Something something Tapatalk
 
S

SKI AND RACE MARINE

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138,

So you're saying any shop capable of working on hi-po race outboards would be able to look them over in 5-10 minutes and catch 75% of the cheating? So it doesn't take a high dollar merc/evinrude factory rep (factory reps might catch that last 25% granted)?

Interesting...


Something something Tapatalk

Crazyhippy you could check most of these with just the photos of what is stock on 2,5merc and 300xs. If all the F2 boats had a Gopro looking at the tack to see what max rpm it goes.You could make all the F2 boats put a small prop on and run WOT when it gets to 6300/6400 it should go into Gaurdian
 

fmo24

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Good boy John good boy John. Is he the only one out of the 300 views that have looked at the pic that can figure this out?

is it the casting finish on the stock one that gives it away?
 
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Unaccustomed as I am to participating in the ?social network?, some thoughts:

Although it is interesting persiflage for some, at some point it needs to be recognized by the World Championship hopefuls and their respective ?camps? that there is no selection process that will be embraced by 100% of participants. It is far more critical that the selection process be clear, understood and maintained. Whatever the process.

Different selection processes have long existed for team/individual sports competing internationally. It?s simple to look at the various selection processes affecting the US Olympic teams. Some are decided by culmination of results over a period of time. Some are purely decided by a committee or a coach with subjective criteria. Many, including track & field and swimming are decided by the results of a single performance. You can be the fastest runner/swimmer for 4 years. Don?t place in the Olympic trials you?re not going.

Each of these processes has their merits and faults. Bottom line- the parameters of the selection process needs to be clear, understand and its integrity maintained.

Now, as the inference that the top candidates are ?cheating?, that's another old yarn?
 

Rexone

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Unrelated but why is every apostrophe, quotation mark, or other symbol on this site a ?

Very annoying trying to read.
 

138

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Unrelated but why is every apostrophe, quotation mark, or other symbol on this site a ?

Very annoying trying to read.


For some reason spell check is doing that...
 

138

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Next class can you pick the one that has a spacer plate in it?
 

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138

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Now, as the inference that the top candidates are ?cheating?, that's another old yarn?[/QUOTE]

Jody when you where on the US Olympic team did you take roids?
 

SGettmann

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This is like Mechanic Outboard Class 101. I'm guessing the plate on the second photo? My Cyclone 2.5's don't have those. I understand a lighter flywheel and taking less energy to spin, but what's the benefit of hte spacer.

And computers? How do you check if those are hot? Maybe that's Mechanic Outboard Class 201. Sean
 
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SKI AND RACE MARINE

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:party2:
Next class can you pick the one that has a spacer plate in it?

I think the 2nd photo has a spacer plate and the top photo looks like a stock 2.5 280 hp merc
 
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