LiPo battery in a boat?

[lenmann]

Anybody running or thinking about switching to Lithium batteries in their boat? At a claimed 4x the life of lead acid the economics are starting to make sense.

Dakota Lithium makes a group 24 size unit with 1000 CCA/ 60 Ah for $600 that compares pretty nice with an Optima at $285.

DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

Twoin pack, 12V 60Ah multi propose 1000 CCA lithium starting dakota battery plus for marine engine, automotive, deep cycle use. 4x longer 11year lifetime.

dakotalithium.com

 

[Bpracing1127]

For 60 amp hours it’s a rip off.

I have half designed a battery group 24 size 40 lbs. with 240 amp hours

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Anybody running or thinking about switching to Lithium batteries in their boat? At a claimed 4x the life of lead acid the economics are staring to make sense.

Dakota Lithium makes a group 24 size unit with 1000 CCA/ 60 Ah for $600 that compares pretty nice with an Optima at $285.

DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

Twoin pack, 12V 60Ah multi propose 1000 CCA lithium starting dakota battery plus for marine engine, automotive, deep cycle use. 4x longer 11year lifetime.

dakotalithium.com

You have to make sure your charging system is compatible from what I've seen. They make larger ones that the fishing guys have been running (essentially combining their 2 or 3 batteries into one unit. Not something that really interests me though..the AGM's do just fine for how little we actually use the boat.

 

[lenmann]

For 60 amp hours it’s a rip off.

I have half designed a battery group 24 size 40 lbs. with 240 amp hours

Tell me more about the 240 Ah group 24 size deal, that sounds pretty interesting.

 

[ChrisV]

Run Antigravity batteries.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Tell me more about the 240 Ah group 24 size deal, that sounds pretty interesting.

size of a group 24, 240 amp hours, 1000+ cca, 40 ish pounds. Direct bolt in no charging system upgrades needed. However your on board battery chargers will have to be replaced. Roughly same price as a battle born.

not ready to roll these out. i cannot get the PCBA right now due to supply chain issues

 

[Crazyhippy]

We destroyed an odyssey in a F2 ski race boat. Modern Merc 300R, so charging system was good. Made it 2 race weekends and maybe a dozen test days. Ended up so dead it wouldn't raise the motor. Battery was physically warm to the touch, and under 6v when it was pulled. Not sure if it was vibrations, or a few big impacts that killed it.

Have 2x as much time on a Optima now. Will see how it holds up.

 

[Riverfamlee]

My concern would the Havasu heat with a lipo. Seems like some manufactures would have already took advantage of the weight savings if there weren't still concerns.

 

[Riverryder]

why spend so much money on a battery that will go bad just like the cheap ones? I get it’s RDP and you guys have to spend all the money on something that you can.

I have a set of Oreily batteries in my boat. Bought them 2 years ago. Doesn’t hurt so bad if I need to replace them.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

We destroyed an odyssey in a F2 ski race boat. Modern Merc 300R, so charging system was good. Made it 2 race weekends and maybe a dozen test days. Ended up so dead it wouldn't raise the motor. Battery was physically warm to the touch, and under 6v when it was pulled. Not sure if it was vibrations, or a few big impacts that killed it.

Going to guess they wouldn't warranty it out because of the voltage reading? Been told they classify it as abuse if they get under a certain amount. Just curious if thats the case.

 

[Crazyhippy]

Going to guess they wouldn't warranty it out because of the voltage reading? Been told they classify it as abuse if they get under a certain amount. Just curious if thats the case.

They didn't warranty it... voltage too low.

 

[lavey jr]

If it means anything to anybody, the Mercury installation manual clearly state do not use lithium batteries. I haven’t checked all their manuals but I know for a fact it’s in their 300R and 450R manual

 

[76sanger]

common now, 500 triple A's and your good to go! One crank every hour.

 

[CobraDave]

There is the whole crazy chemical reaction that lithium has when it comes in contact with water….

 

[Riverbottom]

Ask River Dave about charging Optima's while playing the stereo in his Nordic. I remember the coolest light show going on inside the boat one night, until we realized the batteries caught on fire.
Lithium batteries are not a chance I want to take at this point. Would hate to burn up a nice boat.

 

[Ricks raft]

Is it worth it.
My last two boats have a built in battery tender type charge. Costco interstate Batteries usually get at least 4-5 years out of them, If I notice any sign of weakness, $200 on my way again

 

[MPHSystems]

I wouldn’t. Having had a Li battery go off in my immediate proximity, I avoid those things whenever possible. When they thermal, it’s violent.

 

[Crazyhippy]

If it means anything to anybody, the Mercury installation manual clearly state do not use lithium batteries. I haven’t checked all their manuals but I know for a fact it’s in their 300R and 450R manual

No one reads those things anyways...

Myself included it seems!

 

[lavey jr]

No one reads those things anyways...

Myself included it seems!

That’s true.
Rigging boats is my day job and I like to do things by the book. Maybe it’s a force of habit being a prior military helicopter power plant mechanic.

 

[mesquito_creek]

I wouldn’t. Having had a Li battery go off in my immediate proximity, I avoid those things whenever possible. When they thermal, it’s violent.

Lithium nickel cad thermal runaway = yes... LifePo4 = not so much... I would have zero issues with lifepo4 in a boat because I run a small bank in my boat already. But starting motors doesn't work with my stuff so far.

 

[mesquito_creek]

LifePo4 likes temps below 130 degrees F and the BMS should shut it off to protect it at 130.. so that could be a problem in an enclosed bilge mount also

 

[mesquito_creek]

size of a group 24, 240 amp hours, 1000+ cca, 40 ish pounds. Direct bolt in no charging system upgrades needed. However your on board battery chargers will have to be replaced. Roughly same price as a battle born.

not ready to roll these out. i cannot get the PCBA right now due to supply chain issues

I couldn't wait any longer! LOL... I have put lifepo4 to run two fridges and ice maker and all the stereo equip. Gonna just let the LA start the port motor, Generator and lighting. My bilge gets to hot for lifepo4 just just drop in a LifePo4 house/starting battery.

 

[mesquito_creek]

why spend so much money on a battery that will go bad just like the cheap ones? I get it’s RDP and you guys have to spend all the money on something that you can.

I have a set of Oreily batteries in my boat. Bought them 2 years ago. Doesn’t hurt so bad if I need to replace them.

A lead acid/AGM is good for about 100 cycles. LifePo4 1000-3000 depending... LifePo4 is way cheaper in the long run.

 

[Duramax]

I wanted to save weight in my 21 Daytona and went with Antigravity-Group 24-40amp. 1500 cold cranking and really, really light!

I am a dealer if you want some pricing.

 

[Riverryder]

A lead acid/AGM is good for about 100 cycles. LifePo4 1000-3000 depending... LifePo4 is way cheaper in the long run.

How many factors go into the 1000-3000 do they do okay in the heat? How about when you pull up to 3 dunes in 120 degrees and want to listen to your music all afternoon?

 

[Riverryder]

I wanted to save weight in my 21 Daytona and went with Antigravity-Group 24-40amp. 1500 cold cranking and really, really light!

I am a dealer if you want some pricing.
View attachment 1081932

If I buy 2 of them can you wire my boat like that?

 

[Bpracing1127]

How many factors go into the 1000-3000 do they do okay in the heat? How about when you pull up to 3 dunes in 120 degrees and want to listen to your music all afternoon?

Discharging the batteries from the stereo won’t cause enough heat to create a problem.

 

[Riverryder]

Discharging the batteries from the stereo won’t cause enough heat to create a problem.

Hmm I thought heat and use in the heat really killed batteries shit. Good thing I have cheap batteries.

 

[Desert Whaler]

Lifeline AGM's for me . . . last set I got over 6 years out of them . . . and I ran the PISS out of them.

 

[Riverryder]

You guys have seen the project farm video on batteries correct?

 

[mesquito_creek]

Hmm I thought heat and use in the heat really killed batteries shit. Good thing I have cheap batteries.

If lead acid batteries work for you and you are fine with the price and replacement cycles keep them. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. But if you are trying to solve a problem with capacity or weight or charge times LifePo4 is a potential solution. I would have to carry a huge lead battery bank to complete with my lifepo4 boat needs. I can run two fridges and an ice maker for 3 days straight on lake Powell on a lifepo4 bank a quarter the size. I can recharge it from 5% to 95% at 30amps in about 6 hours on the generator… lead doesn’t even come close and needed to be replaced every other year. My lifepo4 batteries might out live me.

 

[mesquito_creek]

Anybody running or thinking about switching to Lithium batteries in their boat? At a claimed 4x the life of lead acid the economics are starting to make sense.

Dakota Lithium makes a group 24 size unit with 1000 CCA/ 60 Ah for $600 that compares pretty nice with an Optima at $285.

DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

Twoin pack, 12V 60Ah multi propose 1000 CCA lithium starting dakota battery plus for marine engine, automotive, deep cycle use. 4x longer 11year lifetime.

dakotalithium.com

Here’s my concern with this battery

DISCHARGE
100 A max continuous discharge, 750A max 2 second pulse, 650A max 5 sec pulse.

If your motor doesn’t fire off in less than 5 seconds you will trip the battery’s bms best case. Worse case you fry it.

A boat starter motor pulls 400-600 amps normally. 5 seconds is cutting it to close for me.

If you put two batteries in parallel you might extend that to 10 seconds but someone with more knowledge would have to make that call. I am just guessing.

 

[Riverryder]

@mesquito_creek wasnt sayin that. Was just saying seems like a waste for go fast boats? For you and your cabin cruiser out camping at Powell sure invest in batteries like an rv.
Seems like you know a thing or two about batteries.

 

[mesquito_creek]

@mesquito_creek wasnt sayin that. Was just saying seems like a waste for go fast boats? For you and your cabin cruiser out camping at Powell sure invest in batteries like an rv.
Seems like you know a thing or two about batteries.

I am still on Flooded lead acid for starting batteries… I don’t even mess with AGM. But on my 21 foot day cruiser I run my stereo and amps off a dedicated lifepo4 100 ah battery. I don’t even mess with alternator charging. It can run my small stereo and amps all day and I just charge it overnight. The higher nominal voltage 13.5 of lifepo4 kicks ass on most stuff. I would go with something like a renogy or victron dc to dc charger if I upgrade it to on board charging while the motor is running.

 

[Taboma]

If lead acid batteries work for you and you are fine with the price and replacement cycles keep them. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. But if you are trying to solve a problem with capacity or weight or charge times LifePo4 is a potential solution. I would have to carry a huge lead battery bank to complete with my lifepo4 boat needs. I can run two fridges and an ice maker for 3 days straight on lake Powell on a lifepo4 bank a quarter the size. I can recharge it from 5% to 95% at 30amps in about 6 hours on the generator… lead doesn’t even come close and needed to be replaced every other year. My lifepo4 batteries might out live me.

I'm wondering what amazingly efficient fridges and this ice maker are that only use 180AH's over a 72 hour period. At least that's how this tends to read if you're only using 180AHs of recharge to restore the battery bank to 95%. I'm also impressed they'll maintain sufficient voltage when discharged to 5% --- very cool !!

 

[mesquito_creek]

I'm wondering what amazingly efficient fridges and this ice maker are that only use 180AH's over a 72 hour period. At least that's how this tends to read if you're only using 180AHs of recharge to restore the battery bank to 95%. I'm also impressed they'll maintain sufficient voltage when discharged to 5% --- very cool !!

Really small ones… IE a dometic CFX 50 and an under cabinet dorm size fridge. Since the lifePo4 nominal voltage at 13.5 is higher than lead I can draw down the battery to 11.5v at a SOC of 5% and set the fridge low voltage cut off as low as 11.4 allowing me to draw every last bit out of my lifepo4 battery bank. Your math is almost perfect. My battery bank is 200 AH so 180 AH in your example is correct. I used a small counter top ice maker during the heavy drinking hours to stop people from going in and out of the coolers for drink ice to help my my ice demands save me trips to the marina.

I am generally a spring and fall lake Powell boater and I haven’t used my setup in July and Aug where I agree my 72 hour cycles would be maybe cut it half? I haven’t tried yet. But even then my generator would have to run overnight for my ac giving me 8 or more charging hours on a 24 hour period and my battery bank would be cycled even less.

My amp clamp measures about 2-6 amp draw on either of my fridges when the compressor kicks on if that helps any.

So I agree the new expedition style fridges and lifepo4 batteries are amazing!

 

[mesquito_creek]

I'm wondering what amazingly efficient fridges and this ice maker are that only use 180AH's over a 72 hour period. At least that's how this tends to read if you're only using 180AHs of recharge to restore the battery bank to 95%. I'm also impressed they'll maintain sufficient voltage when discharged to 5% --- very cool !!

If your are curious I also run a full size residential fridge off of lifepo4 also. But that draws 1200 watt hours a day on average which would be slightly more than you could get out of a single 12v 100ah battery. But I have 21000 watt hours on that battery bank.

 

[Taboma]

Really small ones… IE a dometic CFX 50 and an under cabinet dorm size fridge. Since the lifePo4 nominal voltage at 13.5 is higher than lead I can draw down the battery to 11.5v at a SOC of 5% and set the fridge low voltage cut off as low as 11.4 allowing me to draw every last bit out of my lifepo4 battery bank. Your math is almost perfect. My battery bank is 200 AH so 180 AH in your example is correct. I used a small counter top ice maker during the heavy drinking hours to stop people from going in and out of the coolers for drink ice to help my my ice demands save me trips to the marina.

I am generally a spring and fall lake Powell boater and I haven’t used my setup in July and Aug where I agree my 72 hour cycles would be maybe cut it half? I haven’t tried yet. But even then my generator would have to run overnight for my ac giving me 8 or more charging hours on a 24 hour period and my battery bank would be cycled even less.

My amp clamp measures about 2-6 amp draw on either of my fridges when the compressor kicks on if that helps any.

So I agree the new expedition style fridges and lifepo4 batteries are amazing!

Thanks for the explanation Greatly improved frig & lighting efficiency, in addition to modern battery tech, provides obvious benefits to those bygone days when I was struggling to heft an 8D from deep within the bowels of our sports fisher.

 

[mesquito_creek]

Thanks for the explanation Greatly improved frig & lighting efficiency, in addition to modern battery tech, provides obvious benefits to those bygone days when I was struggling to heft an 8D from deep within the bowels of our sports fisher.

My cruiser has a spot for an old square tube style TV where I was able to put group 27 sized batteries. That allowed me to keep them somewhat climate controlled. I would be hesitant to put them in the bildge with a pair of engines and all the heat.

My Powell boating is pretty soft on the boat with most of its time parked in a cove and if the main channel gets snotty I am just staying out on the beach. I am not the one to speak to whether lifepo4 is ready for the demands of sport fishing. My guess is the deep pocket sport fishers are definitely experimenting with it as we speak.

 

[Taboma]

If your are curious I also run a full size residential fridge off of lifepo4 also. But that draws 1200 watt hours a day on average which would be slightly more than you could get out of a single 12v 100ah battery. But I have 21000 watt hours on that battery bank.

How many Lifepo4 is required for 1750AH ? Or is that a 24 or 48V system. I'm asking questions I should probably be spending time on their website reading. I admit I've spent zero time researching these or many new types of batteries. I do see where Lifepo4 offers different voltage choices, but I must admit I was slightly blown into an alternate dimension when I just happened upon their 48V 28KWH Rhino X2 for only $ 13,598

It appears to me, just doing some cursory pricing, that these batteries, depending on various variables, are priced somewhere between $ 380 and maybe $ 600 a KWH. So your 21KWH setup is roughly $ 8K to $ 10K worth of batteries ??

 

[Taboma]

My cruiser has a spot for an old square tube style TV where I was able to put group 27 sized batteries. That allowed me to keep them somewhat climate controlled. I would be hesitant to put them in the bildge with a pair of engines and all the heat.

My Powell boating is pretty soft on the boat with most of its time parked in a cove and if the main channel gets snotty I am just staying out on the beach. I am not the one to speak to whether lifepo4 is ready for the demands of sport fishing. My guess is the deep pocket sport fishers are definitely experimenting with it as we speak.

Yeah, those engine compartments will get darn right toasty, especially latent heat after a long run. But, a well ventilated compartment with decent thermal insulation, is certainly possible, at least in the larger models.
Regardless, the tech will continue to improve as the demands of utility and homeowner energy storage continue to expand the market.

 

[mesquito_creek]

How many Lifepo4 is required for 1750AH ? Or is that a 24 or 48V system. I'm asking questions I should probably be spending time on their website reading. I admit I've spent zero time researching these or many new types of batteries. I do see where Lifepo4 offers different voltage choices, but I must admit I was slightly blown into an alternate dimension when I just happened upon their 48V 28KWH Rhino X2 for only $ 13,598

It appears to me, just doing some cursory pricing, that these batteries, depending on various variables, are priced somewhere between $ 380 and maybe $ 600 a KWH. So your 21KWH setup is roughly $ 8K to $ 10K worth of batteries ??

You math is correct. Four 48v 5.3kwh batteries. I paid ~8K but got the 26% tax credit so net cost was ~6k. The price has come down recently on rack mount lifepo4 and I could replace it for closer to 6k which is 4.5k net tax credits.

If I was to buy today I would look at SOK, EG4 or Jakiper batteries. But if things work out I should not be in the market for at least 10 or more years.

 

[Taboma]

You math is correct. Four 48v 5.3kwh batteries. I paid ~8K but got the 26% tax credit so net cost was ~6k. The price has come down recently on rack mount lifepo4 and I could replace it for closer to 6k which is 4.5k net tax credits.

If I was to buy today I would look at SOK, EG4 or Jakiper batteries. But if things work out I should not be in the market for at least 10 or more years.

OK, for your solar system. Thanks for the info.

 

[mesquito_creek]

OK, for your solar system. Thanks for the info.

Yep! My boat has a lead acid 12v 175ah house battery and a second lifepo4 12v 200ah house battery.

 

[Taboma]

Yep! My boat has a lead acid 12v 175ah house battery and a second lifepo4 12v 200ah house battery.

Damn, they should consider you a major investor That's how I feel about my relationship with a battery shop in Havasu. I should have just bought the damned place 26 years ago and I'd be money ahead.

 

[mesquito_creek]

Damn, they should consider you a major investor That's how I feel about my relationship with a battery shop in Havasu. I should have just bought the damned place 26 years ago and I'd be money ahead.

I got sick of running out of battery and constant needing generator run time, not to mention gas at 6 a gallon on the water. Plus I was killing my lead batteries drawing them down past 11.8v. I was putting 400 dollars of lead batteries every other year so I will pay for itself in prob less than 2 years. But it’s really more a better functioning system not the money.

With a full tank of 110 gallons of gas I am good for 4 days, moving our mooring every day but limited to just north of dangling rope. That’s eating and drinking anything we want. I could go longer but the meals etc would have to be less exotic and 4 days is just about right for our small cruiser.

 

[mesquito_creek]

Very detailed explanation of why not to use 12v lithium starter battery quite yet.

 

[BoatCop]

While no restrictions have been issued yet, the Coast Guard, ABYC, and NMMA are scrutinizing Lithium-Ion batteries in the Marine environment. After the Conception fire a few years ago, the questions of lithium battery safety is at the forefront these days. While the fire wasn't due to LI starting/engineering batteries, it's suspected that personal device charging may have been responsible for the blaze.

I think until more is known, I'd steer clear from LI on boats. As Boat Construction Standards are pretty much based on previous incidents, accidents, and casualties, there currently isn't enough data to determine whether they are or are not "safe". I don't think that I'd want to be part of that data set.

 

[mesquito_creek]

While no restrictions have been issued yet, the Coast Guard, ABYC, and NMMA are scrutinizing Lithium-Ion batteries in the Marine environment. After the Conception fire a few years ago, the questions of lithium battery safety is at the forefront these days. While the fire wasn't due to LI starting/engineering batteries, it's suspected that personal device charging may have been responsible for the blaze.

I think until more is known, I'd steer clear from LI on boats. As Boat Construction Standards are pretty much based on previous incidents, accidents, and casualties, there currently isn't enough data to determine whether they are or are not "safe". I don't think that I'd want to be part of that data s

… enters the lead acid battery lobby and government bureaucracy to try to put the horse back in the barn.

I agree that the CG most likely will step in “I am from the government and we are here to help you” and regulate a boat battery while ignoring the large exact same battery in the Bluetooth speaker sitting right next to it!

 

[OCMerrill]

There is also Mtechlithium. Super expensive. All the same issues exist such as charge rate voltage, engine compartment heat, and just being water resistant and not water proof.

We looked into putting house battery Lipo's in the ocean boat but so far have stayed away. Not just cost but the whole uncertainty thing and only having 13.5v-13.8v charging. We would have to run a DC to DC converter to supply the 14.5v constant. This boat has enough stuff to fuck with. I don't think we are going to add another factor to the mix.