Question on PV Solar

[FROGMAN524]

Lets say you live in Phoenix, in a house with an average electric bill of $400/month over the course of the year. That means you’re spending less than $5,000 a year on your electric utility but to get a solar system with battery backup that’s going to cover your entire bill, you’ld be spending anywhere from $50,000 - $100,000 or more to cover that bill and give yourself enough backup for a few days. The break even, at zero percent interest financing, is anywhere from 10-25 years. At that point, you now have obsolete panels and batteries that aren’t worth a shit. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay your bill and spend less than $15,000 for a fully installed LP backup generator?

Also, almost forgot, solar panels are unsightly and hideous and damage to your roof may occur during install.

Additionally, some fire departments won’t spray your roof down with all of that DC power ready to fry the hose handler.

Tell me again, what is the point of solar? Sorry to all the solar salesman here.

 

[Gonefishin5555]

You are forgetting the 30% solar tax credit. 50K net of 15K tax credit is 35K out of pocket which is a 7 yr payback and don't forget all the increases in the electric bill that will be coming your way as Phoenix emulates the California way of life in future years. You could easily be at 6-700mo in five years if things keep going south. Edit my neighbor just got a system and its flush with his roof you don't even know its there except I can see the edge of it from my 2nd story window.

 

[Mikes56]

Lets say you live in Phoenix, in a house with an average electric bill of $400/month over the course of the year. That means you’re spending less than $5,000 a year on your electric utility but to get a solar system with battery backup that’s going to cover your entire bill, you’ld be spending anywhere from $50,000 - $100,000 or more to cover that bill and give yourself enough backup for a few days. The break even, at zero percent interest financing, is anywhere from 10-25 years. At that point, you now have obsolete panels and batteries that aren’t worth a shit. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay your bill and spend less than $15,000 for a fully installed LP backup generator?

Also, almost forgot, solar panels are unsightly and hideous and damage to your roof may occur during install.

Additionally, some fire departments won’t spray your roof down with all of that DC power ready to fry the hose handler.

Tell me again, what is the point of solar? Sorry to all the solar salesman here.

This is what has stopped me from getting solar. We are looking into it, but …

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Lets say you live in Phoenix, in a house with an average electric bill of $400/month over the course of the year. That means you’re spending less than $5,000 a year on your electric utility but to get a solar system with battery backup that’s going to cover your entire bill, you’ld be spending anywhere from $50,000 - $100,000 or more to cover that bill and give yourself enough backup for a few days. The break even, at zero percent interest financing, is anywhere from 10-25 years. At that point, you now have obsolete panels and batteries that aren’t worth a shit. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay your bill and spend less than $15,000 for a fully installed LP backup generator?

Also, almost forgot, solar panels are unsightly and hideous and damage to your roof may occur during install.

Additionally, some fire departments won’t spray your roof down with all of that DC power ready to fry the hose handler.

Tell me again, what is the point of solar? Sorry to all the solar salesman here.

This is so far off base that it’s almost comical.

 

[WhatExit?]

SRP - Salt River Project, one of two primary utilities here in the PHX area makes it so rooftop solar doesn’t provide enough of an ROI to justify the investment

 

[HTTP404]

50 - 100K. Is this an office building?

 

[FROGMAN524]

Example from Tesla

 

[FROGMAN524]

This is so far off base that it’s almost comical.

You must be new to Phoenix, and also a solar salesman.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Example from Tesla View attachment 1194411
View attachment 1194410

Anyone who would sign that is a Fucking idiot.

 

[FROGMAN524]

SRP - Salt River Project, one of two primary utilities here in the PHX area makes it so rooftop solar doesn’t provide enough of an ROI to justify the investment

I’m APS as shown in example above based on my house and that doesn’t include RV garage.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Anyone who would sign that is a Fucking idiot.

Give me solar that covers my bill for under $30,000 and I’d be interested. Any more than that, and at more than zero interest it just doesn’t make sense.

BTW, here in Arizona, where you’re apparently my neighbor, we get dust storms which means you’ll be up on your roof cleaning panels off if you want efficiency.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

7.78kw of solar in aps will run you between $19,500-27,000 depending on equipment and roof type. I wouldn’t do a battery in AZ currently.

After incentives you are at $12-19k..

FYI I don’t sell solar nor am I new to the AZ market.

 

[FROGMAN524]

First example is a solar roof which I can do now before tile is placed, this other example is just panels installed on current tile roof.

Much cheaper but still will be outdated in 6-7 years and maintenance and batteries aren’t included.

 

[FROGMAN524]

7.78kw of solar in aps will run you between $19,500-27,000 depending on equipment and roof type. I wouldn’t do a battery in AZ currently.

After incentives you are at $12-19k..

FYI I don’t sell solar nor am I new to the AZ market.

Ok so take battery out, I’m another $15,000 for 20KW generator/buried LP tank installed.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Ok so take battery out, I’m another $15,000 for 20KW generator/buried LP tank installed.

Have a great evening

 

[FROGMAN524]

Have a great evening

When you move back to Cali, they’ll force they’re panels on you. You’ll enjoy that. Adios.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

When you move back to Cali, they’ll force they’re panels on you. You’ll enjoy that. Adios.

There are a handful of people on here who would take the time to educate you and give you the facts about this of which I am one...instead you decide to be unpleasant. I've helped a lot of inmates regarding solar situations and never once financially benefitted from it, when I have the time I'm more than happy to lend that experience to ensure that people looking into solar go into it with the facts, and understand what to look for and what does and doesn't make sense. It's one of the the ways that I give back to RDP.

FYI ive got an Arizona birth certificate..dad was third generation here as well. I've never lived in California.

Again have a good night, it seems you have it all figured out.

 

[HTTP404]

You are pricing a solar roof. I've never even seen one of those yet.

 

[FROGMAN524]

There are a handful of people on here who would take the time to educate you and give you the facts about this of which I am one...instead you decide to be unpleasant. I've helped a lot of inmates regarding solar situations and never once financially benefitted from it, when I have the time I'm more than happy to lend that experience to ensure that people looking into solar go into it with the facts, and understand what to look for and what does and doesn't make sense. It's one of the the ways that I give back to RDP.

FYI ive got an Arizona birth certificate..dad was third generation here as well. I've never lived in California.

Again have a good night, it seems you have it all figured out.

So you lived in TX, HI, AZ and I thought you said you were moving back to California for some reason? I guess I could be wrong.

 

[HTTP404]

My DVD player is outdated. But it still works.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

So you lived in TX, HI, AZ and I thought you said you were moving back to California for some reason? I guess I could be wrong.

Wrong?? You!!!??

Don’t be ridiculous!!

 

[Ace in the Hole]

You are pricing a solar roof. I've never even seen one of those yet.

Their expense is install and fabrication. I've gotten to see two installed, and seen where the labor sink is. There is a lot of time spent on the roof for those installs, I think they look freaking great, but outside of a place like SoCal, or HI where power is consistently high until they solve some of that I would stay away from it. One of the subcontract installers in HI are a company I worked for until we moved to the mainland...

 

[Ace in the Hole]

So you lived in TX, HI, AZ and I thought you said you were moving back to California for some reason? I guess I could be wrong.

Job opportunities dictate where I live, Ive actually lived more than just those. Instead of moving to SoCal I negotiated a work from home/travel arrangement that is honestly the best thing work wise I've ever had. I am in SoCal at least monthly, but get to live in a pretty great place..a bubble my kids enjoy and that is small enough that the gas station worker knows my name etc.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Job opportunities dictate where I live, Ive actually lived more than just those. Instead of moving to SoCal I negotiated a work from home/travel arrangement that is honestly the best thing work wise I've ever had. I am in SoCal at least monthly, but get to live in a pretty great place..a bubble my kids enjoy and that is small enough that the gas station worker knows my name etc.

CC is cool. Lots were twice what I paid, thus I’m in desert hills west of you.

 

[Lunatic Fringe]

My DVD player is outdated. But it still works.

My 8 track is hanging by a thread.

 

[Xring01]

There are a few things that are convoluted, which can cause some mis understandings.

First define your needs… whats most important to you, reducing energy costs, or emergency back up power during outages?

If you have a solar system, with out battery and with out a auto transfer switch. Then if there is a power outage, your power will go out.
If you have a properly sized solar system with a properly sized battery and ats, then you will have power during an outage. Assuming everything is sized correctly….

These types of systems can save you money on your monthly electricity bills, pending your cost of electricity and the cost of the systme you purchase.

All Batterys have a “capacity”, if you exhaust that capacity without recharging, then you no longer have power.

A home standby generator is exactly that.
If its sized correctly to your home, with an ATS… the power goes out and you have power until you run out of fuel for the generator. Nat Gas tied generators are less likely to run out of fuel than a propane type generator, due to the size of the propane tank and and how full / empty the tank was, when the outage occurred.

A typical 22kW standby generator will burn 2-2.5 gallons/hour of Nat Gas or propane during an outage. But they will run for weeks on end if they have enough fuel. This is a key reason they are so popular in CA, TX, FL, LA, MS, SC, NC type of areas that have natural disasters and fire outages.

There are companys that provide Solar/BESS and a DC Generator which is technically an offgrid system.

The key thing to all of this…
Know what your true annual costs are for the energy you are getting from your utility. If you are in a time of use or peak demand charge type of utility, then solar typically pays for itself. If you are in a COOP or Municipality type of energy provider, then typically the ROI is way to long, to go solar.

Hit me on pm if you want more details or if you have further questions….

Bottom Line: Solar is way to lower your overall energy bills, but requires a battery and ATS to provide during power outages…

A generator has your back during power outages, but doesnt reduce your monthly bills.

Upfront costs of a Solar/BESS is alot more expensive than the upfront cost of a standby generator.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Wrong?? You!!!??

Don’t be ridiculous!!

If nothing else, you are in fact a funny dude.

 

[DUNEFLYER]

Where you live and and what your current electric bills are certainly have to be considered before you sign up for solar.
Some places it make sense and other places like where the OP lives it makes no sense.
In So Cal for me it was an easy decision.
Rough numbers:
42k for total system
12k tax credit
30k cost after credit
6k year electric bill savings
5 year pay off

I have had the system for 6+ years and with SCE’s plan and rate changes over the 6 years along with my usage increasing, my monthly bill is creeping up higher than I anticipated.
It is time to add some more panels..

 

[mesquito_creek]

Solar never makes any sense… signed a 29 year electric utility early retiree ( who now lives off his pension from solar denial on a fully off grid solar property)

 

[fishing fool]

What you are not adding in is the price of power is going to go up over the next 20 years.
Goverment is forcing ALL electric, supply and demand will go up as well as the price. Getting solar today will lock in the price over that time.

 

[mesquito_creek]

SRP - Salt River Project, one of two primary utilities here in the PHX area makes it so rooftop solar doesn’t provide enough of an ROI to justify the investment

SRP doesn’t do it, YOU do it as an SRP shareholder. SRP is the only Utility in the country owned by landowners. You are the land owner. 1 vote per acre or fractional vote per acre. Written into the state constitution, SRP is not accountable to the corporation commission or any other gov agency for rate structure. The SRP board set rates and the board is elected by SRP shareholders.

 

[JL95]

My parents spent $50k on panels for a 3400sqft house and it does not cover their full usage. It's never penned out for them. Also had to pay that off fully before they could refinance their house. I believe there was a good thread on here a while back where a member's brother was building a house and dead set on solar. That too didn't pen out.

 

[Xring01]

My parents spent $50k on panels for a 3400sqft house and it does not cover their full usage. It's never penned out for them. Also had to pay that off fully before they could refinance their house. I believe there was a good thread on here a while back where a member's brother was building a house and dead set on solar. That too didn't pen out.

As I mentioned above.
Pending the rate you are paying to the Utility, it may or may not make sense for you.

In example…
NVE in Reno… I pay .109xxxxx / kwh… so I am roughly 11 cents per

When I live in So Cal, my lowest tier was 22cent for the first 400kwh, then 28 cents for the next, 38 cent, then 46 cents…
something to that effect in a teired rate system. Some pay Peak Demand charges of 48cents/kwh from 4pm to 9pm…

If you live in Reno area at NVE… its extremely difficult to get a ROI on a Solar system. Because my winter eletricity bill is roughly $75 on average in the Winter…. And maybe $175 in the summer. At those rates, I will not put a solar system on…

But when I lived in CA… I would have put a solar system on, if I knew I was going to stay there. I knew I was moving, which is why I never did it.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

$0.07 KWh here flat. They just raised the rates from $0.06.

No solar here but a reasonable amount of EVs.

Solar didn’t pencil out ever for me in So Cal.

 

[Echo Lodge]

A lot of variables for sure. I did a ton of research before I pulled the trigger in 2018. I enjoy checking my SCE bill every month. Or should I say checking my "Credit"! My system has already paid for itself. I do have a an inverter generator when I have a power outage. I am on NEM 1.0 and get retail for the kWh I push back so batts don't make sense for me yet.

 

[badgas]

Give me solar that covers my bill for under $30,000 and I’d be interested. Any more than that, and at more than zero interest it just doesn’t make sense.

BTW, here in Arizona, where you’re apparently my neighbor, we get dust storms which means you’ll be up on your roof cleaning panels off if you want efficiency.

You need some real world examples not just water cooler chatter.

I have no idea what sort of produciton you need to cover your usage but for me here in OC/So Cal I will have about a 5-6 year ROI not including SCE increases that are going up 7% per year.

Big house , old pool pump, old HVAC etc. my SCE bills were over $5,000 annually.

I was using 16K kWh per year. I now have a system that is producing 19k+kWh System cost $40,000 with the 30% Federal Tax credit the Net cost is $28,000.

28,000 / 5,000 = 5.6 years All products have a 25 year warranties.

If you are interested have a Solar company with a great reputaion look at your production and your house and see if it will work.

* YOU NEED A SYSTEM BIG ENOUGH TO COVER USAGE OR YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY.

 

[DC-88]

$0.07 KWh here flat. They just raised the rates from $0.06.

No solar here but a reasonable amount of EVs.

Solar didn’t pencil out ever for me in So Cal.

I would say on average the required t-24 systems on +- 2,500 sq ft houses I build at the beach save about 100 per month at current rates, so its approx a 10 year break even under the current agreement. Your bills must be nothing at those rates . Fog, and the way the roof faces factors in as well, so I don't have plans for solar at my house in Ca either especially with a nice 2 piece clay tile roof . We do have at least 3 electrician buddies who have done their own personal houses -paperwork and install- who put smaller systems on for under 9k or so which might make sense. On my rv garage house where there's more sun solar and all electric is the best thing we did , pay once and be done with rising bills forever while keeping the place as cold as a vegas hotel room when nobody's even there . 8 years in , panels cleaned by rain 90% of the time and still producing just fine. For the OP it may come down to if income is constant and rising, or varies from year to year . That's what motivated me to go electric when it was on the table with a good deal in 14'. Now I want batteries and minor re wire for a critical load circuit panel so I can ditch the generators.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I would say on average the required t-24 systems on +- 2,500 sq ft houses I build at the beach save about 100 per month at current rates, so its approx a 10 year break even under the current agreement. Your bills must be nothing at those rates . Fog, and the way the roof faces factors in as well, so I don't have plans for solar at my house in Ca either especially with a nice 2 piece clay tile roof . We do have at least 3 electrician buddies who have done their own personal houses -paperwork and install- who put smaller systems on for under 9k or so which might make sense. On my rv garage house where there's more sun solar and all electric is the best thing we did , pay once and be done with rising bills forever while keeping the place as cold as a vegas hotel room when nobody's even there . 8 years in , panels cleaned by rain 90% of the time and still producing just fine. For the OP it may come down to if income is constant and rising, or varies from year to year . That's what motivated me to go electric when it was on the table with a good deal in 14'. Now I want batteries and minor re wire for a critical load circuit panel so I can ditch the generators.

The buyers turned my old house into a rehab house.. and it now has solar

I only had a bill over $250 a handfull of times in So Cal. Monthly average was probably $150.

 

[mesquito_creek]

I would say on average the required t-24 systems on +- 2,500 sq ft houses I build at the beach save about 100 per month at current rates, so its approx a 10 year break even under the current agreement. Your bills must be nothing at those rates . Fog, and the way the roof faces factors in as well, so I don't have plans for solar at my house in Ca either especially with a nice 2 piece clay tile roof . We do have at least 3 electrician buddies who have done their own personal houses -paperwork and install- who put smaller systems on for under 9k or so which might make sense. On my rv garage house where there's more sun solar and all electric is the best thing we did , pay once and be done with rising bills forever while keeping the place as cold as a vegas hotel room when nobody's even there . 8 years in , panels cleaned by rain 90% of the time and still producing just fine. For the OP it may come down to if income is constant and rising, or varies from year to year . That's what motivated me to go electric when it was on the table with a good deal in 14'. Now I want batteries and minor re wire for a critical load circuit panel so I can ditch the generators.

How simple would all the options be if critical loads were always configured into a panel. At this point why wouldn’t any new build have them? It’s not a money thing…. Everyone could do as they please with generator or solar or hydrogen or magical space dust…

 

[Dirtbag]

im curious why in california all new house builds arent required to have solar?at least in so cal where it never rains until this year

 

[Ace in the Hole]

im curious why in california all new house builds arent required to have solar?at least in so cal where it never rains until this year

Title 24

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

im curious why in california all new house builds arent required to have solar?at least in so cal where it never rains until this year

Is that a typo? All new SFRs and low rises require solar in CA as of 2020 I believe.

Most seem to come with the absolute minimum that you’d need and you’d have to expand the system to be cost effective.

 

[Dirtbag]

i

Is that a typo? All new SFRs and low rises require solar in CA as of 2020 I believe.

Most seem to come with the absolute minimum that you’d need and you’d have to expand the system to be cost effective.

im seeing a lot of new houses built here in yorba linda with no solar on the roof...maybeits in their yard? also isnt title 24 just have to use smart thermostats and stuff like that?

 

[LuauLounge]

Community solar

Regulators loosen California’s groundbreaking rule to require residential rooftop solar

California regulators eased off the state's groundbreaking new law allowing developers to use a Sacramento utility's off-site solar installations instead.

calmatters.org

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

i

im seeing a lot of new houses built here in yorba linda with no solar on the roof...maybeits in their yard? also isnt title 24 just have to use smart thermostats and stuff like that?

New builds 3 stories and under must have solar in CA, it’s the law. Also battery walls will be mandated soon.

Title 24: Solar Mandates & Requirements | California Solar

Title 24 requirements went into effect in 2020 & were updated in 2022. Simply Solar explains California’s solar mandates & how to reach them!

simplysolar.com

Where that solar may sit is a different discussion.

 

[BasilHayden]

Lets say you live in Phoenix, in a house with an average electric bill of $400/month over the course of the year. That means you’re spending less than $5,000 a year on your electric utility but to get a solar system with battery backup that’s going to cover your entire bill, you’ld be spending anywhere from $50,000 - $100,000 or more to cover that bill and give yourself enough backup for a few days. The break even, at zero percent interest financing, is anywhere from 10-25 years. At that point, you now have obsolete panels and batteries that aren’t worth a shit. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay your bill and spend less than $15,000 for a fully installed LP backup generator?

Also, almost forgot, solar panels are unsightly and hideous and damage to your roof may occur during install.

Additionally, some fire departments won’t spray your roof down with all of that DC power ready to fry the hose handler.

Tell me again, what is the point of solar? Sorry to all the solar salesman here.

I will do a real quick answer as i read the exchange and not sure you really want to understand.

1 - I personally dont really feel solar in AZ makes a huge amount of sense today, its close but not a homerun. My guess is you need a $40k PV system that will get you close to a 6 year return maybe, in reality I expect AZ to be closer to 7-8 but I really dont pay attention to the market as much as I should.
2 - Your choice of product was terrible. Let's use the most expensive, least useful product and prove that the ROI makes no sense, you are correct sir!
3 - Batteries to back up the load you are talking about really dont exist unless you are truly rational about the essential load panel, so forget the batteries. Go ahead and buy the generator.
4 - hideous is your perogative, you are quite rude, many of us work hard to install as cleanly as possible, but welcome to your opinion.
5 - no damage to your roof if done properly by a professional, again welcome to your opinion.
6 - fire, Im not even going to do the favor of arguing this point, you are plain wrong.

Point of solar, done right is to protect the homeowner from the utilities abilitity to ratchet up rates with no discussion. I have close to 5,000 homeowners who seriously disagree with your theory, that said go back to point 1, not sure it makes sense in AZ. I can say please call someone else should you decide to move forward.
Have a good day

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I will do a real quick answer as i read the exchange and not sure you really want to understand.

1 - I personally dont really feel solar in AZ makes a huge amount of sense today, its close but not a homerun. My guess is you need a $40k PV system that will get you close to a 6 year return maybe, in reality I expect AZ to be closer to 7-8 but I really dont pay attention to the market as much as I should.
2 - Your choice of product was terrible. Let's use the most expensive, least useful product and prove that the ROI makes no sense, you are correct sir!
3 - Batteries to back up the load you are talking about really dont exist unless you are truly rational about the essential load panel, so forget the batteries. Go ahead and buy the generator.
4 - hideous is your perogative, you are quite rude, many of us work hard to install as cleanly as possible, but welcome to your opinion.
5 - no damage to your roof if done properly by a professional, again welcome to your opinion.
6 - fire, Im not even going to do the favor of arguing this point, you are plain wrong.

Point of solar, done right is to protect the homeowner from the utilities abilitity to ratchet up rates with no discussion. I have close to 5,000 homeowners who seriously disagree with your theory, that said go back to point 1, not sure it makes sense in AZ. I can say please call someone else should you decide to move forward.
Have a good day

I have always respected your honest approach, even when there was not a sale to be made.

 

[BasilHayden]

I have always respected your honest approach, even when there was not a sale to be made.

Thank you, its hard to tell people they own the wrong house when they are trying to give you cash. I insist with my salesmen that we wont do some projects because I dont want that call down the road when its not what they thought. Then there are some people who know much more than a professional ever will...

 

[DWC]

5 - no damage to your roof if done properly by a professional, again welcome to your opinion.
6 - fire, Im not even going to do the favor of arguing this point, you are plain wrong.

Point of solar, done right is to protect the homeowner from the utilities abilitity to ratchet up rates with no discussion. I have close to 5,000 homeowners who seriously disagree with your theory, that said go back to point 1, not sure it makes sense in AZ. I can say please call someone else should you decide to move forward.
Have a good day

I can attest to the No roof damage and huge savings. . Thanks for the outstanding service sir.

 

[DC-88]

How simple would all the options be if critical loads were always configured into a panel. At this point why wouldn’t any new build have them? It’s not a money thing…. Everyone could do as they please with generator or solar or hydrogen or magical space dust…

Once the batteries became mainstream and the scamdemic pricing on everything else in the country took hold, that is exactly what I've been doing with the required systems/new builds in general. This way it's ready to add backup . I have conduits or smurf added to any future viable roof planes/ detached structures to their subs etc. as well.