The Dungeon..

[thetub]

but you bean brain counters cant see that...

 

[thetub]

Taxation without representation is theft. Taxation with representation is how things get done.

get that rad Porsche yet so you can hang with yore masters...

 

[530RL]

530 i think the American consumer is too stoopid or cant think far enough ahead to know whats good for them...

they buy garbage thats breaks in a week and end up buying more garbage when that breaks...

you guys import shit that does not last...

just got off the phone with the water heater co. for the 5th time on a 2 year old heater which keeps breaking... and paying labor over and over and over...

friggin junk parts...


build stuff here pay a little more and have it last...

but you bean brain counters cant see that...

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

The American citizen being free to choose as opposed to being coerced by the government is the fundamental basis of capitalism and conservatism.

 

[was thatguy]

get that rad Porsche yet so you can hang with yore masters...

Gotta get the electric one, then a big ass gas burning generator to charge it!
Lib logic ya know.

 

[thetub]

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

The American citizen being free to choose as opposed to being coerced by the government is the fundamental basis of capitalism and conservatism.

no how about push for fair trade deals and not exploit slave labor and cut costs here in the US via regs and laws...

and not cut back room deals... and insider trading

 

[was thatguy]

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

The consumer being free to choose is the fundamental basis of capitalism and conservatism.

Yes, that is definitely your cloak.
But I’ve heard other successful people tell me that Capitalism and the free market requires a degree of personal responsibility to protect the ability to operate fluidly and to protect the ability to operate with longevity

Sometimes at the cost of a percentage point of margin.
They call it ethics. In my world I equate it with not working for companies that cut corners environmentally or safety wise.

You told me once that answering to shareholders is the bottom line. No discussion, and that the early days of your career taught you that you would not be employed for long if you let personal integrity influence your tactics.

I say YOU are doing damage to the very institute you use to make that margin...the free market.

Or as Butchie put it...”Conscience, it do cost”

 

[lbhsbz]

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

The American citizen being free to choose as opposed to being coerced by the government is the fundamental basis of capitalism and conservatism.

That’s the thing...in many cases, we no longer have a choice. Example, back long before I was involved in the brake industry, a company called Aimco started offshoring rotors and bringing them in so cheap that the domestic aftermarket couldn’t compete on price. The domestic producers at the time (Raybestos, Bendix, Wagner, and KPM that I know of) tried to pressure the gov to help, with anti dumping duties...nothing happened and in about 2005, domestic aftermarket rotor production was gone...everyone went to China to lower prices to compete with Aimco....at some point around 2010 I believe...some 20 years later, the gov imposed anti dumping duties and everyone’s cost went up substantially. Of course, the investment required to re-tool (machines, patterns, etc...) for the stuff we used to make, plus 20 years of new part numbers) just to have the capacity that China had built over the last 20+ years was too great to absorb.

This is why you can’t buy a US made rotor outside of OEM production for anything, and if a domestic or Asian car 10 years old or earlier, you probably won’t find a US made rotor at all. We don’t have a choice anymore, because of greed.

Tariffs are a double edged sword, but the pure intent is to keep the playing field level to maintain choices.

 

[thetub]

i heard hell has hella cheap labor...

 

[was thatguy]

That’s the thing...in many cases, we no longer have a choice. Example, back long before I was involved in the brake industry, a company called Aimco started offshoring rotors and bringing them in so cheap that the domestic aftermarket couldn’t compete on price. The domestic producers at the time (Raybestos, Bendix, Wagner, and KPM that I know of) tried to pressure the gov to help, with anti dumping duties...nothing happened and in about 2005, domestic aftermarket rotor production was gone...everyone went to China to lower prices to compete with Aimco....at some point around 2010 I believe...some 20 years later, the gov imposed anti dumping duties and everyone’s cost went up substantially. Of course, the investment required to re-tool (machines, patterns, etc...) for the stuff we used to make, plus 20 years of new part numbers) just to have the capacity that China had built over the last 20+ years was too great to absorb.

This is why you can’t buy a US made rotor outside of OEM production for anything, and if a domestic or Asian car 10 years old or earlier, you probably won’t find a US made rotor at all. We don’t have a choice anymore, because of greed.

Tariffs are a double edged sword, but the pure intent is to keep the playing field level to maintain choices.

Silence!

Have you seen his Fiat???

 

[RodnJen]

get that rad Porsche yet so you can hang with yore masters...

You must be confused, I’m not the one who inherited millions in real estate.

Gotta get the electric one, then a big ass gas burning generator to charge it!
Lib logic ya know.

Those are really nice cars.

 

[530RL]

That’s the thing...in many cases, we no longer have a choice. Example, back long before I was involved in the brake industry, a company called Aimco started offshoring rotors and bringing them in so cheap that the domestic aftermarket couldn’t compete on price. The domestic producers at the time (Raybestos, Bendix, Wagner, and KPM that I know of) tried to pressure the gov to help, with anti dumping duties...nothing happened and in about 2005, domestic aftermarket rotor production was gone...everyone went to China to lower prices to compete with Aimco....at some point around 2010 I believe...some 20 years later, the gov imposed anti dumping duties and everyone’s cost went up substantially. Of course, the investment required to re-tool (machines, patterns, etc...) for the stuff we used to make, plus 20 years of new part numbers) just to have the capacity that China had built over the last 20+ years was too great to absorb.

This is why you can’t buy a US made rotor outside of OEM production for anything, and if a domestic or Asian car 10 years old or earlier, you probably won’t find a US made rotor at all. We don’t have a choice anymore, because of greed.

Tariffs are a double edged sword, but the pure intent is to keep the playing field level to maintain choices.

I understand the point clearly. However, it was the consumer that chose which brake product to purchase that met their needs at the best price. In your scenario, some failed to meet that demand and consistent with capitalism, went out of business.

At the end of the day either the consumer gets to make the choice for themselves or the government gets to make the choice for the consumer. Once the government gets involved in making choices for the consumer, picking who wins and who loses, the Consumer becomes subjected to the governments choice of what products are best and which companies get to survive.

And given all the complaints about the government and the deep state in here, I remain perplexed why anyone would be willing to give up their right to pick and choose what product they want, or be willing to subordinate their judgement to the government’s judgement?

 

[SNiC Jet]

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

I remain perplexed why anyone would be willing to give up their right to pick and choose what product they want, or be willing to subordinate their judgement to the government’s judgement?

Perplexed???? W/o tariffs, the choices of buying U.S. goods are diminished.....but you know this...

 

[500bbc]

530 i think the American consumer is too stoopid or cant think far enough ahead to know whats good for them...

they buy garbage thats breaks in a week and end up buying more garbage when that breaks...

you guys import shit that does not last...

just got off the phone with the water heater co. for the 5th time on a 2 year old heater which keeps breaking... and paying labor over and over and over...

friggin junk parts...


build stuff here pay a little more and have it last...

Get a Bradford White

 

[500bbc]

Yes, that is definitely your cloak.
But I’ve heard other successful people tell me that Capitalism and the free market requires a degree of personal responsibility to protect the ability to operate fluidly and to protect the ability to operate with longevity

Sometimes at the cost of a percentage point of margin.
They call it ethics. In my world I equate it with not working for companies that cut corners environmentally or safety wise.

You told me once that answering to shareholders is the bottom line. No discussion, and that the early days of your career taught you that you would not be employed for long if you let personal integrity influence your tactics.

I say YOU are doing damage to the very institute you use to make that margin...the free market.

Or as Butchie put it...”Conscience, it do cost”

All about the slave labor...

 

[thetub]

Get a Bradford White

hmm didnt realize they are made in the US...

was in a pinch and bought an AO smith from HD supply..

never again

 

[thetub]

You must be confused, I’m not the one who inherited millions in real estate.



Those are really nice cars.

--------
says the limousine liberal not receiving a stimulus check...

theres that clueless bitter grass is greener on the other side little man woman creeping out

its billions... like the Donald

 

[lbhsbz]

hmm didnt realize they are made in the US...

plus was in a pinch and bought an AO smith from HD supply..

never again

Did the gas valve die or did the low nox burner clog up with carbon?

 

[thetub]

Did the gas valve die or did the low nox burner clog up with carbon?

keeps clogging up with carbon and the pilot assembly keeps going bad.. the next step is the gas valve...

on top of that got it out of the girl who works there that eventually the mesh inside the assembly of the heaters wears out from corrosion and starts making loud noises...

there was a defect..

i said ya the entire heater is a defect...

plus constantly cleaning the vents out

 

[rcmike]

I understand the point clearly. However, it was the consumer that chose which brake product to purchase that met their needs at the best price. In your scenario, some failed to meet that demand and consistent with capitalism, went out of business.

At the end of the day either the consumer gets to make the choice for themselves or the government gets to make the choice for the consumer.

You know, I understand this comment. There is a problem with it. These companies that make brake rotors are trying to compete with the government of a country that does not care about quarterly reports.

And you, the importer, should understand that without morals, the free market collapses. Now, you have made it clear that you have no morals, and therefore you could care less if it collapses, as long as you are rich when it goes.

I would like to think I try to make educated decisions on some of this stuff. Like I buy my aftermarket rotors from Coleman Racing in Minnesota. But with many of my cars no longer being supported by OEM, getting a stock replacement part means buying Chinese crap because we no longer have a choice. We end up with shit.

 

[was thatguy]

You know, I understand this comment. There is a problem with it. These companies that make brake rotors are trying to compete with the government of a country that does not care about quarterly reports.

And you, the importer, should understand that without morals, the free market collapses. Now, you have made it clear that you have no morals, and therefore you could care less if it collapses, as long as you are rich when it goes.

I would like to think I try to make educated decisions on some of this stuff. Like I buy my aftermarket rotors from Coleman Racing in Minnesota. But with many of my cars no longer being supported by OEM, getting a stock replacement part means buying Chinese crap because we no longer have a choice. We end up with shit. View attachment 955500

He doesn’t answer to you or me...he answers to his board members with yours and mine money.

It requires flexible morals, and he has clearly stated more than once that his measure of character is based on the number of enemies he cultivates, and that hate is his primary motivator.
Why would one even consider that anything beyond moral ambiguity would apply to him?

 

[530RL]

You know, I understand this comment. There is a problem with it. These companies that make brake rotors are trying to compete with the government of a country that does not care about quarterly reports.

And you, the importer, should understand that without morals, the free market collapses. Now, you have made it clear that you have no morals, and therefore you could care less if it collapses, as long as you are rich when it goes.

I would like to think I try to make educated decisions on some of this stuff. Like I buy my aftermarket rotors from Coleman Racing in Minnesota. But with many of my cars no longer being supported by OEM, getting a stock replacement part means buying Chinese crap because we no longer have a choice. We end up with shit. View attachment 955500

It is not the company that chooses to supply the product at the lowest price possible for the quality demanded, it is the consumer demanding it. The company would rather not have competition and just keep doing the old stuff over and over as that is easiest. But the consumer and markets demand better, faster and cheaper.

You keep putting the cart in front of the horse. The companies are simply doing what their market demands. Companies and their management are not in charge of this decision, the consumer and marketplace is. The company and management either meets the demands or goes out of business.

 

[Exfiltrated18]

He doesn’t answer to you or me...he answers to his board members with yours and mine money.

It requires flexible morals, and he has clearly stated more than once that his measure of character is based on the number of enemies he cultivates, and that hate is his primary motivator.
Why would one even consider that anything beyond moral ambiguity would apply to him?

He is a fraud and sellout.

I wonder if his oriental plants “employ” children

 

[500bbc]

This children, is why you don’t eat paint chips.

Or ram them up your ass with alcohol...

 

[Exfiltrated18]

Or ram them up your ass with alcohol...

That must be a game he plays in the orient

 

[lbhsbz]

It is not the company that chooses to supply the product at the lowest price possible for the quality demanded, it is the consumer demanding it. The company would rather not have competition and just keep doing the old stuff over and over as that is easiest. But the consumer and markets demand better, faster and cheaper.

You keep putting the cart in front of the horse. The companies are simply doing what their market demands. Companies and their management are not in charge of this decision, the consumer and marketplace is. The company and management either meets the demands or goes out of business.

The companies are the whores who decided to make the shitty inferior product available at a fraction of the cost. Prior to that, if the consumer needed brake rotors he bought them and paid what they cost. Now your company, rather than continue to produce parts here and compete on quality, has made something available for a fraction of the cost, and with clever marketing succeed in convincing the customer that it's the same quality....by the time everyone realized your BS, it was all over and costs so much to get back that nobody can afford it.

 

[was thatguy]

The companies are the whores who decided to make the shitty inferior product available at a fraction of the cost. Prior to that, if the consumer needed brake rotors he bought them and paid what they cost. Now your company, rather than continue to produce parts here and compete on quality, has made something available for a fraction of the cost, and with clever marketing succeed in convincing the customer that it's the same quality....by the time everyone realized your BS, it was all over and costs so much to get back that nobody can afford it.

His bullshit is that the consumer has dictated this.
The reality is that he and other corporate whores have narrowed our choices by competing with each other over cheapest product with highest margin, driving quality products into what amounts to a “niche” market.
But hey, it puts gas in the chopper!
Don’t forget this is the guy that says we are all idiots for not voting for Biden to bring back conservatism.


Ghouls, all of them, and the oracle runs point.

 

[rcmike]

It is not the company that chooses to supply the product at the lowest price possible for the quality demanded, it is the consumer demanding it. The company would rather not have competition and just keep doing the old stuff over and over as that is easiest. But the consumer and markets demand better, faster and cheaper.

And you forgot one very important thing. Without a functioning auto industry, we cannot produce tanks. Without a functioning aviation industry, we do not produce jets. Without a functioning steel and machining industry, we do not produce rifles. Without a functioning pharmaceutical industry, we cannot make medicine, and supply chain issues could cut vaccine production by 75%..

Which makes it a common defense argument to keep some of that from being built by our enemy. But we know, you do not care. You would have gladly kissed Stalin's ass on the red square if you got another $100...

 

[Exfiltrated18]

The solution seems to be buy American, spend a little extra. Your little extra goes a long way towards bringing America back as a top producer/manufacturing country. The added bonus is screwing over the corporate sellout whores like Mr Conservative 53oh

 

[was thatguy]

And you forgot one very important thing. Without a functioning auto industry, we cannot produce tanks. Without a functioning aviation industry, we do not produce jets. Without a functioning steel and machining industry, we do not produce rifles. Without a functioning pharmaceutical industry, we cannot make medicine, and supply chain issues could cut vaccine production by 75%..

Which makes it a common defense argument to keep some of that from being built by our enemy. But we know, you do not care. You would have gladly kissed Stalin's ass on the red square if you got another $100...

$100?
Hell, a penny would get it done...

 

[was thatguy]

It is not the company that chooses to supply the product at the lowest price possible for the quality demanded, it is the consumer demanding it. The company would rather not have competition and just keep doing the old stuff over and over as that is easiest. But the consumer and markets demand better, faster and cheaper.

You keep putting the cart in front of the horse. The companies are simply doing what their market demands. Companies and their management are not in charge of this decision, the consumer and marketplace is. The company and management either meets the demands or goes out of business.

Yes, we feel the full brunt of your consumer dedication.

 

[regor]

 

[530RL]

The companies are the whores who decided to make the shitty inferior product available at a fraction of the cost. Prior to that, if the consumer needed brake rotors he bought them and paid what they cost. Now your company, rather than continue to produce parts here and compete on quality, has made something available for a fraction of the cost, and with clever marketing succeed in convincing the customer that it's the same quality....by the time everyone realized your BS, it was all over and costs so much to get back that nobody can afford it.

If it is the companies who are the whores and not the CONSUMERS making that choice, what company forced you to buy a foreign made perfectly serviceable set of impact sockets from Harbor Freight for a fraction of the cost of an American made set? Who tied your hands when you made that purchase? What whore forced you and fooled you into buying Harbor Freight with their “clever marketing”.

And if you believe so strongly in what you are posting about this topic, why are you advising other CONSUMERS in the lounge to choose to purchase a foreign made impact socket set? Shouldn’t you be advocating for them to spend much more money on an SK, Wright, Bondhus or Proto set?

Fact is as you validly point out, the Harbor Freight are perfectly serviceable and a fraction of the cost of an American made set. And you the CONSUMER not only chose to buy them but advocate for that product as a CONSUMER.

Yet you think the government should take that free choice away from others, because after all, if you are the consumer you know better; but other consumers do not. The government knows what’s best for them and must protect them from competition, clever marketing and free markets.

1/2” impact sockets?...go to harbor freight and spend $20...they’ll outlive you. I bought a set when I started as a mechanic out of high school at a Toyota dealer...I’ve replaced the 21mm in 21 years...the rest are in good shape.

 

[was thatguy]

He got ya there.

 

[Royally PO'd]

One of the problems with your deductive reasoning is that the consumer caused the oversea operation, and NOT the corp, that felt it needed more profit when competing with peer companies in the US. The first co. that moved overseas, if I had been in charge would have had to STAY overseas and compete there, or face criminal charges.. Did you- in that diseased mind ever consider if your cheesy product had to be on a cost parallel to our products...You ,265, would be kicking rocks !!!

 

[lbhsbz]

If it is the companies who are the whores and not the CONSUMERS making that choice, what company forced you to buy a foreign made perfectly serviceable set of impact sockets from Harbor Freight for a fraction of the cost of an American made set? Who tied your hands when you made that purchase? What whore forced you and fooled you into buying Harbor Freight with their “clever marketing”.

And if you believe so strongly in what you are posting about this topic, why are you advising other CONSUMERS in the lounge to choose to purchase a foreign made impact socket set? Shouldn’t you be advocating for them to spend much more money on an SK, Wright, Bondhus or Proto set?

Fact is as you validly point out, the Harbor Freight are perfectly serviceable and a fraction of the cost of an American made set. And you the CONSUMER not only chose to buy them but advocate for that product as a CONSUMER.

Yet you think the government should take that free choice away from others, because after all, if you are the consumer you know better; but other consumers do not. The government knows what’s best for them and must protect them from competition, clever marketing and free markets.

Had whores like you not gone to China and drove what I believe to have been the only US produced tool company in its price class to do the same, I would have recommended Craftsman.

 

[530RL]

Had whores like you not gone to China and drove what I believe to have been the only US produced tool company in its price class to do the same, I would have recommended Craftsman.

Ironically you may just get the anti-free market and anti-capitalism government you long for in AOC, Bernie Sanders and the Democrats.

 

[WhatExit?]

If it is the companies who are the whores and not the CONSUMERS making that choice, what company forced you to buy a foreign made perfectly serviceable set of impact sockets from Harbor Freight for a fraction of the cost of an American made set? Who tied your hands when you made that purchase? What whore forced you and fooled you into buying Harbor Freight with their “clever marketing”.

And if you believe so strongly in what you are posting about this topic, why are you advising other CONSUMERS in the lounge to choose to purchase a foreign made impact socket set? Shouldn’t you be advocating for them to spend much more money on an SK, Wright, Bondhus or Proto set?

Fact is as you validly point out, the Harbor Freight are perfectly serviceable and a fraction of the cost of an American made set. And you the CONSUMER not only chose to buy them but advocate for that product as a CONSUMER.

Yet you think the government should take that free choice away from others, because after all, if you are the consumer you know better; but other consumers do not. The government knows what’s best for them and must protect them from competition, clever marketing and free markets.

The stuff you post is so full of holes it's pathetic. Your mind is corrupted with China talk.

Who "forced us to buy HF shit?" The lack of options causes that. And I'm confident you have something to do with the lack of Made in the USA options available to us.

How many tool sets are made in America? And where can we buy them?

Sure, not everyone wants to spend more for quality but eventually quality matters as people learn the value of it over time (if they haven't already learned it).

When your company chases the lowest possible cost of manufacturing and adds margin to that you're doing nothing but RACING TO THE BOTTOM. And when you get there you have nowhere else to go but cut every possible cost everywhere to maintain your margin so you cut costs across the board including labor.

 

[fast99]

I recently needed a few tools and did an internet search for tools made in the US. I have a little bone to pick with china over this virus thing. To my surprise found out even many name brands are made in China. Below is what I found out about Snap on. Some are made here, some overseas.


Snap-On has tools made in the USA and in other countries including China for sale under the Snap-On brand. Most hand tools are still made in Milwaukee and other parts of the USA. However, many of their other tools are made outside the USA.

 

[530RL]

The stuff you post is so full of holes it's pathetic. Your mind is corrupted with China talk.

Who "forced us to buy HF shit?" The lack of options causes that. And I'm confident you have something to do with the lack of Made in the USA options available to us.

How many tool sets are made in America? And where can we buy them?

Sure, not everyone wants to spend more for quality but eventually quality matters as people learn the value of it over time (if they haven't already learned it).

When your company chases the lowest possible cost of manufacturing and adds margin to that you're doing nothing but RACING TO THE BOTTOM. And when you get there you have nowhere else to go but cut every possible cost everywhere to maintain your margin so you cut costs across the board including labor.

There are many brands made in the USA. Toolbarn even has an American made search tool.

The bottom line is who should make the choice of what tool to buy, American consumers or the government?

As an American that believes in freedom and smaller government I think it should be Americans and not the government.

I accept that you believe it should be the government.

 

[67Charger]

This post has been a very interesting read... I don't personally know what 530's job is, but I would deduce he is an importer of sorts. In general, I make a serious effort to buy American, even (actually almost without exception) at a higher cost. The fact of the matter is that yes, the Chinese government subsidizes their products to a price point that cannot be competed with in the domestic market. What is also true is that if the American consumer wasn't buying it, they wouldn't make it. This would be a typical supply/demand situation, except the American population, however, is so driven to get what they want RIGHT NOW they they want it as cheap as possible just to "have" it. The quality of most of the Asian imports is USUALLY very low, but not always. Some are pretty decent. I would have to be very desperate and not have an OEM or domestic aftermarket option available to put Chinese brake parts on my vehicle. I've done it, and also immediately replaced them with better parts as soon as I could.

A GOOD set of sockets is a lifetime purchase, and you take care of them and don't lose them. You look for them if they get misplaced, even the elusive 10mm. If you bought Chinese and lost one, You'd go buy another, or maybe even another whole set. whatever. I am not a professional mechanic, but use tools very frequently in my shop. For example: I have the same set of US made Craftsman Professional end wrenches I have had since 1998. Haven't lost or replaced a single one. I keep track of them. That set is valuable to me. I loan my Chinese tools (back of the pickup box that may be stolen at any time) to my 9 year old son to work on his bike with because he does not yet understand what good tools are and will likely leave them where they fall. He knows I treat mine better, and one day he will understand why.

I am not a fan of imports, but I also don't support government intervention to prevent people from being stupid. That gives THEM the power to decide for ME what is best. Tariffs are a grey area. They are a counter attack to try and level the playing field against foreign government subsidized attempts to undermine out local manufacturing base. Dangerous tool, as is any free market manipulation.

Patent theft and knock-off parts are a big problem. MSD and many others are constantly fighting this. Garbage parts that may or may not work, but sold at domestic first-quality prices to guys who thought they were buying the genuine articles. If they sell them as super cheap, unbranded white box parts, fine. You get what you pay for. You slap an MSD label on there and charge me full price, that is theft.

The point is, you can't force this problem to be fixed without changing the mentality of "I want it now." Save up, buy the good one, and only have to buy it once. The more of that we do, the easier it gets.

 

[67Charger]

Had whores like you not gone to China and drove what I believe to have been the only US produced tool company in its price class to do the same, I would have recommended Craftsman.

-----

Ironically you may just get the anti-free market and anti-capitalism government you long for in AOC, Bernie Sanders and the Democrats.

In regards to Craftsman specifically:

Had they dropped their prices to match their new imported production, Harbor Freight would have never gotten the foothold they did. Craftsman WAS the best value for a domestic tool. HF had to be super cheap to compete. Craftsman went Chinese to increase profit margin and pissed of a VERY loyal customer base. Instead, they kept the same price for imported tools that they were previously charging for their domestic ones. Quality took a MAJOR hit. I remember vividly walking down the aisle past the "Professional" long pattern combo wrenches and wondering what was wrong with the open end. The opening was 1/2 as deep into the head as it used to be. Turns out the quality of the steel was so inferior that they had to thicken the web/shorten the opening to keep it from spreading under a load. Price was the same as the US versions that were rapidly flying off the shelf. I haven't and won't buy much Chinese Craftsman on principal alone. I get my Chinese tools from HF on the rare occasion I need something once.

Had they not pulled this move, I would still be exclusively Craftsman. Now it is Proto and Armstrong or NOS US-made Craftsman off eBay.

Tell me the ICON brand at HF isn't a direct clone of the Craftsman label - Color, font, style... - and relatively expensive.

Craftsman has changed hands a few times and appears to have finally learned it's lesson. NOTE: The Craftsman at sears is NOT the same as the Craftsman at Lowe's, Ace, NAPA, and elsewhere. The one at Sears is all legacy and has no major corporate support. Even the V20 vs. 20V batteries are different. All the growth and development is in the non-Sears version. They are making a really big deal about all the new factories they are opening up here, trying to win back their customers and a niche of affordable domestic tools. None of the hand tools are here yet, but we're hopeful and I have cash at the ready, waiting for it to happen.

 

[squeezer]

Who "forced us to buy HF shit?" The lack of options causes that....

Name a tool that you can buy at HF that you can’t buy from someplace else...???

 

[squeezer]

We have talked this through before...

Buying shit parts from China - what's the true cost of doing business offshore?

It's all inflation. Wages have fallen far behind most all types of inflation so is not that goods are cheaper it's that there more expensive, too expensive in fact. Now if you want good stuff it's 3-4 times what it used to cost if they even make it here any more. And if you want to spend what...

www.riverdavesplace.com

 

[was thatguy]

We have talked this through before...

Buying shit parts from China - what's the true cost of doing business offshore?

It's all inflation. Wages have fallen far behind most all types of inflation so is not that goods are cheaper it's that there more expensive, too expensive in fact. Now if you want good stuff it's 3-4 times what it used to cost if they even make it here any more. And if you want to spend what...

www.riverdavesplace.com

 

[thetub]

In regards to Craftsman specifically:

Had they dropped their prices to match their new imported production, Harbor Freight would have never gotten the foothold they did. Craftsman WAS the best value for a domestic tool. HF had to be super cheap to compete. Craftsman went Chinese to increase profit margin and pissed of a VERY loyal customer base. Instead, they kept the same price for imported tools that they were previously charging for their domestic ones. Quality took a MAJOR hit. I remember vividly walking down the aisle past the "Professional" long pattern combo wrenches and wondering what was wrong with the open end. The opening was 1/2 as deep into the head as it used to be. Turns out the quality of the steel was so inferior that they had to thicken the web/shorten the opening to keep it from spreading under a load. Price was the same as the US versions that were rapidly flying off the shelf. I haven't and won't buy much Chinese Craftsman on principal alone. I get my Chinese tools from HF on the rare occasion I need something once.

Had they not pulled this move, I would still be exclusively Craftsman. Now it is Proto and Armstrong or NOS US-made Craftsman off eBay.

Tell me the ICON brand at HF isn't a direct clone of the Craftsman label - Color, font, style... - and relatively expensive.

Craftsman has changed hands a few times and appears to have finally learned it's lesson. NOTE: The Craftsman at sears is NOT the same as the Craftsman at Lowe's, Ace, NAPA, and elsewhere. The one at Sears is all legacy and has no major corporate support. Even the V20 vs. 20V batteries are different. All the growth and development is in the non-Sears version. They are making a really big deal about all the new factories they are opening up here, trying to win back their customers and a niche of affordable domestic tools. None of the hand tools are here yet, but we're hopeful and I have cash at the ready, waiting for it to happen.

I grab all the USA made old Craftsman tools when i see them at swap meets and garage sales... usually pretty cheap too...

cheaper the Harbor Freight Squeegie

i love the old Craftsman stuff....

 

[lbhsbz]

Name a tool that you can buy at HF that you can’t buy from someplace else...???

 

[94Nautique]

If it is the companies who are the whores and not the CONSUMERS making that choice, what company forced you to buy a foreign made perfectly serviceable set of impact sockets from Harbor Freight for a fraction of the cost of an American made set? Who tied your hands when you made that purchase? What whore forced you and fooled you into buying Harbor Freight with their “clever marketing”.

And if you believe so strongly in what you are posting about this topic, why are you advising other CONSUMERS in the lounge to choose to purchase a foreign made impact socket set? Shouldn’t you be advocating for them to spend much more money on an SK, Wright, Bondhus or Proto set?

Fact is as you validly point out, the Harbor Freight are perfectly serviceable and a fraction of the cost of an American made set. And you the CONSUMER not only chose to buy them but advocate for that product as a CONSUMER.

Yet you think the government should take that free choice away from others, because after all, if you are the consumer you know better; but other consumers do not. The government knows what’s best for them and must protect them from competition, clever marketing and free markets.

Uh, companies are merely people organized as a going concern...

Open the Thunderbird, its there.

Sent from my SM-T387V using Tapatalk

 

[Carlson-jet]

I simply believe the American consumer should have that choice, not be forced by the government to comply with the governments central decision making and central planning.

The American citizen being free to choose as opposed to being coerced by the government is the fundamental basis of capitalism and conservatism.

Sweet, Bring back fully auto weapons and we can discuss this further. Make it your life goal.
Otherwise you are just a turncoat spewing typical elitist crap. What are you afraid of. I give you this challenge. Stop trying to line your pockets and allow Americans to choose free will. What better investment can a man make to help keep Americans free