On the Mexico and Canada Tariffs

[530RL]

You ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?

Yes, yes, well know your President created new trade agreements his last time in office. That was about 6-7 years ago now right? Is it possible that those trade agreements in that time, could have been "the best trade agreement in the history of man?"

I was on a cruise and Patty Hearst was on it. Fascinating person to talk to.

 

[530RL]

Interesting take here - Sounds a lot like some of the tariff proposals - You Tariff me, I'm going to Tariff you....

Weird how that works....

That makes sense,

But in this case, Canada and Mexico do not tariff US manufactured autos at 25%. Only we do it to them after we signed an agreement where we would not do so. An agreement that was the basis for billions of investment by US companies.

That is the disconnect.

 

[j21black]

That makes sense,

But in this case, Canada and Mexico do not tariff US manufactured autos at 25%. Only we do it to them after we signed an agreement where we would not do so. An agreement that was the basis for billions of investment by US companies.

That is the disconnect.

Seems you over looked the phrase "some of"

I put that in intentionally as I had already anticipated your above reply - Almost word for word...

Was just hoping to avoid it.

 

[samsah33]

LOL

You make it sound like my posts include “Fuck Donald Trump”, or I have a FDT edition of a Ford Truck, or even worse I am dIrving around town defacing business property with an “I did that” sticker.

If I could only have an open mind like all those people………..

So Snic Jet claims that you're one-sided and that you never posted anything in support of Trump, and instead of disproving him by offering an example or two where you have agreed with one of Trump's policies or have agreed with something Trump said or did, your well-crafted rebuttal is: hey, at least I didn't put an "I did that" sticker on a gas pump...?

 

[Sportin' Wood]

Can anyone share an actual negative example of an action they have personally experienced yet from all this tariff pearl clutching?

I hear only speculation at this point.

I recently heard a great comment on the subject of international trade. International trade is designed to optimize consumption; it is not designed to optimize production.

Those that find fault with the Tariff policy don't seem to care where the money ends up as long as they keep getting cheap goods to consume. Personally I like the idea of dollars staying local. I'm not sure I feel compelled to worry about the well being of people in other countries.

 

[530RL]

So Snic Jet claims that you're one-sided and that you never posted anything in support of Trump, and instead of disproving him by offering an example or two where you have agreed with one of Trump's policies or have agreed with something Trump said or did, your well-crafted rebuttal is: hey, at least I didn't put an "I did that" sticker on a gas pump...?

For example I recently applauded his leadership in engaging in foreign entanglements against Yemen and its people even though it primarily helps keep international trade to Europe open. That’s the right thing to do.

With respect to the P&G, 99 percent of the posts are in favor of Trump’s policies, even if those policies fly in the face of historical conservative policies. So there is little need to add to that side of the echo chamber.

 

[530RL]

Can anyone share an actual negative example of an action they have personally experienced yet from all this tariff pearl clutching?

I hear only speculation at this point.

I recently heard a great comment on the subject of international trade. International trade is designed to optimize consumption; it is not designed to optimize production.

Those that find fault with the Tariff policy don't seem to care where the money ends up as long as they keep getting cheap goods to consume. Personally I like the idea of dollars staying local. I'm not sure I feel compelled to worry about the well being of people in other countries.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-says-u-auto-tariffs-135523924.html

On a more serious note, we just canceled orders on two gantry lifts from an American company that went up 25 percent as they are made in Canada.

Figure they just lost 20 grand of revenue from us alone.

There will be a lot of cancelled orders from these large tax increases on American businesses.

 

[Sandlord]

Rolls-Royce explores shifting engine-making to US to counter Trump tariffs

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rolls-royce-explores-shifting-engine-070000040.html

 

[Sportin' Wood]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-says-u-auto-tariffs-135523924.html

On a more serious note, we just canceled orders on two gantry lifts from an American company that went up 25 percent as they are made in Canada.

Figure they just lost 20 grand of revenue from us alone.

There will be a lot of cancelled orders from these large tax increases on American businesses.

Did you plan on buying a Ferrari?

 

[530RL]

Rolls-Royce explores shifting engine-making to US to counter Trump tariffs

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rolls-royce-explores-shifting-engine-070000040.html

Yep, when the end users of products have to pay a higher price due to government policy, the manufacturers have additional revenue to pay for the higher costs of manufacturing the product in a less efficient manner.

Simply a government imposed transfer tax from the consumer of the product to the manufacturer of the product.

Should be easy to expand margins off the consumers as they will have higher prices, fewer choices and less competition.

The test will be to keep volume up at the higher prices.

 

[was thatguy]

Did you plan on buying a Ferrari?

You mean “another” Ferrari.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

On a more serious note, we just canceled orders on two gantry lifts from an American company that went up 25 percent as they are made in Canada.

Figure they just lost 20 grand of revenue from us alone.

There will be a lot of cancelled orders from these large tax increases on American businesses.

I'm curious by nature; What do you plan to do now in regards to these Gantry Lifts?

• Hold off purchase? Hope for a change in policy.
• Purchase from a different supplier that manufactures inside the US?
• Continue doing things the way you did before.
• Solve your manufacturing problem in a different way?
• Refurbish something you planned to replace?
• Outsource production the Gantry Lifts would enhance to a factory you own with the capability outside the US.
• Outsource the process to a vendor

I'm genuinely curious how the Tariff influences this outcome.

 

[530RL]

I'm curious by nature; What do you plan to do now in regards to these Gantry Lifts?

• Hold off purchase? Hope for a change in policy.
• Purchase from a different supplier that manufactures inside the US?
• Continue doing things the way you did before.
• Solve your manufacturing problem in a different way?
• Refurbish something you planned to replace?
• Outsource production the Gantry Lifts would enhance to a factory you own with the capability outside the US.
• Outsource the process to a vendor

I'm genuinely curious how the Tariff influences this outcome.

With respect to the dozen or so business I am involved in, we moved as much of Q1 Capex into January as we could. That ended up being about half.

With respect to the balance of Capex we have cancelled all but the most critical due to i) the increased costs due to tariffs, and ii) the uncertainty of future business volumes as about half of our businesses have a majority of export business and that is rapidly falling off due to retaliatory measures. Even a Capex without a tariff is tenuous as there is a great deal of uncertainty now in volumes.

With respect to the future, if tariffs stay in place, the Capex we have to go forward on will simply be more expensive, but like all our competitors we will be raising prices to cover the tariffs which will match revenues with expenses, it is a wash other than to the customer.

If tariffs are reduced or eliminated, we will not be required to raise prices and the capex expenses will match and Capex will be reassessed based upon volume.

The one thing most businesses I am talking with are keeping in mind is that one can not pay the tariff on a Capex expenditure only to have the tariff go away as you then have no way to recover that higher cost. So scaling back is the logical response.

 

[t&y]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-says-u-auto-tariffs-135523924.html

On a more serious note, we just canceled orders on two gantry lifts from an American company that went up 25 percent as they are made in Canada.

Figure they just lost 20 grand of revenue from us alone.

There will be a lot of cancelled orders from these large tax increases on American businesses.

What happened to simply going by market value. Guess it works both ways.

 

[530RL]

What happened to simply going by market value. Guess it works both ways.

I don't blame them at all for raising their prices. We have no choice but to raise ours also.

When government increases taxes as in this case, prices have to go up. It is as basic of an economic principle as there is.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

With respect to the dozen or so business I am involved in, we moved as much of Q1 Capex into January as we could. That ended up being about half.

With respect to the balance of Capex we have cancelled all but the most critical due to i) the increased costs due to tariffs, and ii) the uncertainty of future business volumes as about half of our businesses have a majority of export business and that is rapidly falling off due to retaliatory measures. Even a Capex without a tariff is tenuous as there is a great deal of uncertainty now in volumes.

With respect to the future, if tariffs stay in place, the Capex we have to go forward on will simply be more expensive, but like all our competitors we will be raising prices to cover the tariffs which will match revenues with expenses, it is a wash other than to the customer.

If tariffs are reduced or eliminated, we will not be required to raise prices and the capex expenses will match and Capex will be reassessed based upon volume.

The one thing most businesses I am talking with are keeping in mind is that one can not pay the tariff on a Capex expenditure only to have the tariff go away as you then have no way to recover that higher cost. So scaling back is the logical response.

If you were (are) a publicly traded company, you may have made a forward looking statement. Good thing we all get to fly incognito here.

 

[530RL]

If you were (are) a publicly traded company, you may have made a forward looking statement. Good thing we all get to fly incognito here.

As an older white male, I no longer sit on public company boards, only private ones.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

As an older white male, I no longer sit on public company boards, only private ones.

I missed school the day they passed out the white privilege cards. Been paying for it every day since. I blame my parents, they blame theirs.

 

[530RL]

I missed school the day they passed out the white privilege cards. Been paying for it every day since. I blame my parents, they blame theirs.

I had white male privilege in business from the early 80's through about 2012. Then Boards and Management started to to look more like America, so us old White Males had to go find other things to do.

We had our time in the sun, I've got no complaints.

 

[Canuck 1]

That would probably be a diff thread about diff policy.
Diff dynamics than the tariff discussion, but interesting.

Not up here

 

[Sportin' Wood]

I had white male privilege in business from the early 80's through about 2012. Then Boards and Management started to to look more like America, so us old White Males had to go find other things to do.

We had our time in the sun, I've got no complaints.

The artistic spin is for my own benifit.

If I self identified as LBGTQ would I be allowed to have some time in the sun or have the old rich white guys burned up all the equity? The self loathing decided to prank society it seems and amuse themselves by letting the clowns lead next as to not outperform the narcistic offspring of the "Greatest Generation"

Was there ever any sun at all? Or just rays burning the flesh of men too bloated to care, their wrinkled fingers clutching the last of the equity like a drowning man grasping a sack of gold. It seems corporate America is still obsessed with its daily valuation above all. Optimized Consumers Beware.

Here we are, the feral spawn of the Boomers, watching the whole wretched machine belch smoke and sputter, realizing the grand American promise was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme played out in slow motion.

The tariffs, might be our last-ditch efforts at preservation—just the steel-toed boot of punk rock justice pressing down on the oxygen tube of a dying empire. We see you, old-timers, fumbling for relevance, trying to rationalize your place in a world you never planned to leave behind. But time, my friend, is a ruthless dealer, and the house always wins. Perhaps it’s time to cash in your chips and start greasing the palms of whatever cosmic bureaucrat controls the velvet rope to the afterlife. Good luck with that.

There are a lot of places a person can go to practice variations of political ideaoligy, but only one place you can hustle yourself out of poverty. I think it's worth circling the wagons and fighting off the savages, or worse the pick pockets. Our neighbors are outside the castle walls and we must close the gates. The public is on to Old Scrach the town crier and knows the bellmen is a fool, or worse.

Let this play out, we are just pawns, and the media feeds us lies. Matters not- this debate changes nothing; but it's fun to pretend we are smart.

 

[Canuck 1]

Close, but I'm not "blaming" anyone. If a person willingly lets themselves be taken advantage of, that is not the fault of the person taking the advantage. Conversely, when that person gets sick of it and says no more, that is not the fault of the person who had been taking advantage, more so just the person done being taken advantage of.

How can you not understand this. If you tax me, I will tax you. If you do not tax me, I will not tax you. Probably too simple for you to get, but the rest of us see it clearly.

Of course Trump wants all that industry back, and he has also said almost a direct quote of what I just did. You like to put the focus on the industry and not the Country imposing the tariff's.

Expand your vision a bit here and we will probably agree on most.

Zero tax is zero tax, dumping rules apply both ways

Here is the part that most miss, the auto industry has been integrated across the US canada border for 120 years, this is not a recent thing, Trump wants back what he never had. Close it down, It doesn't affect us out west at all.

The oil business is the same, we export to US refineries that ship refined product back north, Alberta subsidizes the US to the tune of 40+ billion a year on this and other exports.

Trump is wrong, or is there another angle?

The easiest solution is to close the border tight and all the lies and bs will surface quickly..... on both sides of the border

 

[t&y]

Zero tax is zero tax, dumping rules apply both ways

Here is the part that most miss, the auto industry has been integrated across the US canada border for 120 years, this is not a recent thing, Trump wants back what he never had. Close it down, It doesn't affect us out west at all.

The oil business is the same, we export to US refineries that ship refined product back north, Alberta subsidizes the US to the tune of 40+ billion a year on this and other exports.

Trump is wrong, or is there another angle?

The easiest solution is to close the border tight and all the lies and bs will surface quickly..... on both sides of the border

Awesome, so you would be in favor of zero tariff's on all products across the board?

 

[530RL]

Here we are, the feral spawn of the Boomers, watching the whole wretched machine belch smoke and sputter, realizing the grand American promise was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme played out in slow motion.

This paragraph sums up why I remain simply perplexed down here in the P&G.

To read it one would think we live in a downtrodden country, failing with no opportunity and no hope. We are a complete failure relative to the other 195 countries in the world, the bottom of the barrel, an abject failure.

It’s actually quite the opposite.

It is so much easier to become a millionaire in America than 40 years ago, so much easier to change one’s station in Life, so much easier to reach the American dream than any other time in our history.

The movement from poor to rich has never been higher.

Yet people whine about how fucked up it is. If it ever became as they think it is, they will wish for the America they despise and loathe so much.

 

[brgrcru]

This paragraph sums up why I remain simply perplexed down here in the P&G.

To read it one would think we live in a downtrodden country, failing with no opportunity and no hope. We are a complete failure relative to the other 195 countries in the world, the bottom of the barrel, an abject failure.

It’s actually quite the opposite.

It is so much easier to become a millionaire in America than 40 years ago, so much easier to change one’s station in Life, so much easier to reach the American dream than any other time in our history.

The movement from poor to rich has never been higher.

Yet people whine about how fucked up it is. If it ever became as they think it is, they will wish for the America they despise and loathe so much.

That’s not what I read out of it
But good try !

 

[t&y]

This paragraph sums up why I remain simply perplexed down here in the P&G.

To read it one would think we live in a downtrodden country, failing with no opportunity and no hope. We are a complete failure relative to the other 195 countries in the world, the bottom of the barrel, an abject failure.

It’s actually quite the opposite.

It is so much easier to become a millionaire in America than 40 years ago, so much easier to change one’s station in Life, so much easier to reach the American dream than any other time in our history.

The movement from poor to rich has never been higher.

Yet people whine about how fucked up it is. If it ever became as they think it is, they will wish for the America they despise and loathe so much.

Lol.. So if you are in a good position in life does that mean you should let people take advantage of you? Or possibly should you continue to improve your position?

 

[rcmike]

Lol.. So if you are in a good position in life does that mean you should let people take advantage of you? Or possibly should you continue to improve your position?

Are you saying that if a hooker moved in and started stealing the silver, you would want them to stop?

 

[t&y]

Are you saying that if a hooker moved in and started stealing the silver, you would want them to stop?

Depends on value of silver to services rendered. Like most thing, people will see the bright shiny side of the transaction without seeing everything behind it. We are still deep in the bright shiny phase.

 

[530RL]

Lol.. So if you are in a good position in life does that mean you should let people take advantage of you? Or possibly should you continue to improve your position?

Absolutely not.

But one should be self reflective and objectively analytical to ascertain why is it that they are doing so well compared to those that they think are taking advantage of them.

If we are so downtrodden and abused, why are we doing better economically by any objective measure?

Probably worth considering I would think?

 

[t&y]

Absolutely not.

But one should be self reflective and objectively analytical to ascertain why is it that they are doing so well compared to those that they think are taking advantage of them.

If we are so downtrodden and abused, why are we doing better economically by any objective measure?

Probably worth considering I would think?

You keep saying we are in a bad position, not me. My thoughts on this is U.S.A. first. You ever run across or know of a family member that is very well off and in a good position in life, but has one or two members of that family that are constantly asking for money, living spaces, help with this that or the other from them. Is the rich family member somehow automatically not able to be doing well because others are using them or always asking for what they have? Is it the rich family's fault that they have money and therefore should never take steps to get more money, etc???

 

[530RL]

You keep saying we are in a bad position, not me. My thoughts on this is U.S.A. first. You ever run across or know of a family member that is very well off and in a good position in life, but has one or two members of that family that are constantly asking for money, living spaces, help with this that or the other from them. Is the rich family member somehow automatically not able to be doing well because others are using them or always asking for what they have? Is it the rich family's fault that they have money and therefore should never take steps to get more money, etc???

Yes, now I get it.

Those one or two family members are the ones asking for tarifffs and the government to help them. To protect them.

It will not keep the rich guy from getting richer, or the hard worker from continuing to work hard, it is just another government bail out that the self sufficient hard worker will have to work around.

Thank you. I get it now.

 

[t&y]

Yes, now I get it.

Those one or two family members are the ones asking for tarifffs and the government to help them. To protect them.

It will not keep the rich guy from getting richer, or the hard worker from continuing to work hard, it is just another government bail out that the self sufficient hard worker will have to work around.

Thank you. I get it now.

Yeah, I really don't think you do. You assume the ones asking for the money are in a bad position themselves or are the "hard workers" in this scenario. I do not. I recognize them as a person/s who will manipulate and take advantage of every angle they can to get what they want, whether they need the assistance, or are or are not "hard workers," in order to get what they want. I do not fault people for doing well in life or having more than I do, nor do I fault those trying to get ahead or get a better position. Just like I don't fault the person who at some point says, "I do not like these terms so I am going to do what I can to change them."

How about this: Does a person who is "doing so well" have obligation to share their value so those around him/her have equal value?

 

[530RL]

Yeah, I really don't think you do. You assume the ones asking for the money are in a bad position themselves or are the "hard workers" in this scenario. I do not. I recognize them as a person/s who will manipulate and take advantage of every angle they can to get what they want, whether they need the assistance, or are or are not "hard workers," in order to get what they want. I do not fault people for doing well in life or having more than I do, nor do I fault those trying to get ahead or get a better position. Just like I don't fault the person who at some point says, "I do not like these terms so I am going to do what I can to change them."

How about this: Does a person who is "doing so well" have obligation to share their value so those around him/her have equal value?

That is the fundamental tenant of socialism.

 

[Canuck 1]

Awesome, so you would be in favor of zero tariff's on all products across the board?

Most are now, and the ones that are not should be

 

[Sportin' Wood]

This paragraph sums up why I remain simply perplexed down here in the P&G.

To read it one would think we live in a downtrodden country, failing with no opportunity and no hope. We are a complete failure relative to the other 195 countries in the world, the bottom of the barrel, an abject failure.

It’s actually quite the opposite.

It is so much easier to become a millionaire in America than 40 years ago, so much easier to change one’s station in Life, so much easier to reach the American dream than any other time in our history.

The movement from poor to rich has never been higher.

Yet people whine about how fucked up it is. If it ever became as they think it is, they will wish for the America they despise and loathe so much.

I see a downtrodden country falling apart, with waning opportunity and fleeting hope. It might be so much easier to become a millionaire today, but with almost 200% inflation in the last 40 years, a million is not the same. It's been a few decades since America received a raise consumerist with the inflation rate.

I'll spare you the rest of my diatribe. It only makes me seem unhinged.

FWIW; I do whine a lot about fairness, I wish the world as equally unfair.

 

[530RL]

I see a downtrodden country falling apart, with waning opportunity and fleeting hope. It might be so much easier to become a millionaire today, but with almost 200% inflation in the last 40 years, a million is not the same. It's been a few decades since America received a raise consumerist with the inflation rate.

I'll spare you the rest of my diatribe. It only makes me seem unhinged.

FWIW; I do whine a lot about fairness, I wish the world as equally unfair.

If you hated inflation before, hold the President’s beer when all these tariffs go through.

 

[17 10 Flat]

Interesting take here - Sounds a lot like some of the tariff proposals - You Tariff me, I'm going to Tariff you....

Weird how that works....

From my history reading, Tommy has produced the text from 530, so its out there. Tommy has asked to see the text he is accused of typing and sending. Never been produced. In fact if memory serves he offered $1000.00 to see it.

Maybe DM Tommy see what he says?

 

[Sportin' Wood]

If you hated inflation before, hold the President’s beer when all these tariffs go through.

I will happily hold his beer to hurt other countries, corporate elites, and Blue states.

It's so far gone, I'm ready for the firestorm. I don't need to buy much these days. Thankfully I'm prepared.

I let some of that crazy leak out. :0

 

[t&y]

That is the fundamental tenant of socialism.

Do you believe this country is based on socialism?

 

[t&y]

Most are now, and the ones that are not should be

I'm good with that. So do you believe Trump is making up his statements regarding the U.S.A. subsidizing Canada? How about we stop all subsidizing across the board, either benefiting Canada or the U.S.A. Like you said, just shut it all down.

 

[530RL]

Do you believe this country is based on socialism?

Nope. It has historically been based upon free markets and capitalism other than a period under Hoover.

But it is unfortunately creeping away from free markets and capitalism and more towards government control.

But a majority of the voters appear to want that, they say free market capitalism is not “fair”. so I suspect the free market capitalists that are left will just have to figure it out.

 

[530RL]

I will happily hold his beer to hurt other countries, corporate elites, and Blue states.

It's so far gone, I'm ready for the firestorm. I don't need to buy much these days. Thankfully I'm prepared.

I let some of that crazy leak out. :0

The corporate elites will be fine, they will even prosper under it. Now the little guy, he is fucked.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

The corporate elites will be fine, they will even prosper under it. Now the little guy, he is fucked.

I'm guessing the French Aristocrats felt the same level of safety in 1788.

 

[Runs2rch]

The corporate elites will be fine, they will even prosper under it. Now the little guy, he is fucked.

The little guy has been getting fucked!!!

 

[4Waters]

The corporate elites will be fine, they will even prosper under it. Now the little guy, he is fucked.

What's new, nothings changed. The middle class always get fucked, at least when a Republican is in office we get some lube

 

[Sandlord]

Do you believe this country is based on socialism?

Yes, If the globalist win.

 

[Orange Juice]

The little guy has been getting fucked!!!

The little guy has no clue there are rules n life. Learn the rules, and then you can bend them to fit your own personal needs.

 

[Smitty7]

The little guy has no clue there are rules n life. Learn the rules, and then you can bend them to fit your own personal needs.

What the fuck kinda statement is that ?

 

[monkeyswrench]

The little guy has no clue there are rules n life. Learn the rules, and then you can bend them to fit your own personal needs.

Spoken as someone who has probably never known what it's like.

As an upper lower class, or maybe lower middle, I don't bend the rules to fit my needs. Maybe if I did, I'd be driving nicer cars, or live in a bigger house. Most of us play by the rules placed on members of society. We know the rules, we obey them. If we all declined to follow them, society would degrade to chaos. Honor and pride over hookers and blow. Not as much fun, but I like the saying "dirty hands, clean money."

 

[530RL]

Spoken as someone who has probably never known what it's like.

As an upper lower class, or maybe lower middle, I don't bend the rules to fit my needs. Maybe if I did, I'd be driving nicer cars, or live in a bigger house. Most of us play by the rules placed on members of society. We know the rules, we obey them. If we all declined to follow them, society would degrade to chaos. Honor and pride over hookers and blow. Not as much fun, but I like the saying "dirty hands, clean money."

Would you support someone to lead you if they had been shown to bend the rules? Would you look up to them, champion them?