Propane engine for indoor use?

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What are the details for running a propane engine indoors? Here's what I'm looking to do. I picked up a concrete saw with a 16hp Briggs and Stratton engine. Want to convert it to propane so I can cut indoors. I know it still emits exhaust gasses. I've searched the internet but can't get a solid answer. Getting info on propane fork lifts but those are in warehouses and are typically lower rpm. I'll be running at 3500 rpm.

 

[lbhsbz]

Buy a few fans, open a few windows, leave it running on gas.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Walmart, and a lot of the big stores run propane powered ride on floor buffers. Try looking those up, and see if you can get specs on those. I don't know what hp they are, nor what rpm.

 

[HST4ME]

Carbon monoxide is carbon monoxide.

 

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Walmart, and a lot of the big stores run propane powered ride on floor buffers. Try looking those up, and see if you can get specs on those. I don't know what hp they are, nor what rpm.

That's a good idea.

Carbon monoxide is carbon monoxide.

This what I'm trying to figure out. If CM is CM then what's the advantage of propane?

 

[rivrrts429]

Most of our smaller welding rigs that are used indoors are transferred over to propane from gas.

Check Lincoln welder 305 ranger specs. Seems about the same size motor as your concrete saw, I dunno.

 

[nrbr]

Couldn't you use an electric saw?

 

[Racey]

Lets have a little lesson in CO (Carbon Monoxide) vs CO2 (Carbon Dioxide), Carbon Monoxide is extremely poisonous and very rarely naturally occurring, Carbon Dioxide is breathed out your lungs with every single breath in large amounts, and is fairly common component of the atmosphere required for all plants to live.

You run propane indoors because it has almost no CO (monoxide) emissions odor compared to gasoline, especially 2 stroke. but even normal gas. This combined with the NOX compounds created by gas are the ones that smell horrible and give you a headache. If you have a dual fuel forklift you know this, you can run the propane one indoors no problem (i run mine often) but if you run it on gas for even a couple minutes it stinks the place up horribly, and starts to give you a headache, the gas exhaust has a nauseating smell.

Normal levels of CO in the atmosphere are 0.1 PPM
Normal levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are 400 PPM

OSHA limits long-term workplace exposure levels of CO to 50 ppm
OSHA limits long-term workplace exposure levels of CO2 to 5,000 ppm

Symptoms of CO poisoning can occur at 100 PPM
Drowsiness from CO2 can occur at 10,000 ppm – common in closed cars or auditoriums
Symptoms of mild CO2 poisoning include headaches and dizziness at concentrations less than 30,000 ppm (3%)

CO Concentrations as low as 700 ppm can be life-threatening
CO2 Concentrations At 80,000 ppm (8%) CO2 can be life-threatening

That's a good idea.

This what I'm trying to figure out. If CM is CM then what's the advantage of propane?

Propane is a perfect stoich fuel because of it's super and pure hyrdocarbon structure, this means it almost always burns extremely cleaning leaving only 2 byproducts when burned, water vapor, and CO2. Monoxide on the other hand is very dangerous comparably

So Carbon Monoxide is Carbon Monoxide, but propane creates way less, almost zero CM compared to gasoline. CO2 which both fuels create is much less of a problem

 

[boatpi]

Almost everything known to man is being developed nowadays with lithium batteries I would look in that direction.

 

[SoCalDave]

Guess that answers yore question.

 

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Lets have a little lesson in CO (Carbon Monoxide) vs CO2 (Carbon Dioxide), Carbon Monoxide is extremely poisonous and very rarely naturally occurring, Carbon Dioxide is breathed out your lungs with every single breath in large amounts, and is fairly common component of the atmosphere required for all plants to live.

You run propane indoors because it has almost no CO (monoxide) emissions odor compared to gasoline, especially 2 stroke. but even normal gas. This combined with the NOX compounds created by gas are the ones that smell horrible and give you a headache. If you have a dual fuel forklift you know this, you can run the propane one indoors no problem (i run mine often) but if you run it on gas for even a couple minutes it stinks the place up horribly, and starts to give you a headache, the gas exhaust has a nauseating smell.

Normal levels of CO in the atmosphere are 0.1 PPM
Normal levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are 400 PPM

OSHA limits long-term workplace exposure levels of CO to 50 ppm
OSHA limits long-term workplace exposure levels of CO2 to 5,000 ppm

Symptoms of CO poisoning can occur at 100 PPM
Drowsiness from CO2 can occur at 10,000 ppm – common in closed cars or auditoriums
Symptoms of mild CO2 poisoning include headaches and dizziness at concentrations less than 30,000 ppm (3%)

CO Concentrations as low as 700 ppm can be life-threatening
CO2 Concentrations At 80,000 ppm (8%) CO2 can be life-threatening




Propane is a perfect stoich fuel because of it's super and pure hyrdocarbon structure, this means it almost always burns extremely cleaning leaving only 2 byproducts when burned, water vapor, and CO2. Monoxide on the other hand is very dangerous comparably

So Carbon Monoxide is Carbon Monoxide, but propane creates way less, almost zero CM compared to gasoline. CO2 which both fuels create is much less of a problem

Thanks for the response Racey. This is the information I was looking for. Sounds like propane is good to go and instead of fans I'll need a plant or two to absorb the CO2. Lol. This site is awesome.

 

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Electric is an option... I do have a Meco electric push saw and use it. I got a deal on a small frame self propelled Meco with a gas engine. If good to run on propane indoors I'll use this one I just got and park the electric unit.

 

[4Waters]

Just step up to one of these, I run one at work, my suggestion is don't. It's a heavy SOB.

 

[Justfishing]

Carbon monoxide is carbon monoxide.

Carbon monoxide is produced by incomplete combustion. Equipment can be run on natural gas without putting out co. There are unvented fireplaces approved for indoor use.

With that said when ever anything is burned there are pollutants. In an enclosed space it can be unhealthy. Also oxygen is used up. Low Oxygen and co detectors should be used

You shouldnt put others at risk even if you are willing to take the risk. With proper equipment and ventilation it can be done.

 

[Racey]

Thanks for the response Racey. This is the information I was looking for. Sounds like propane is good to go and instead of fans I'll need a plant or two to absorb the CO2. Lol. This site is awesome.

I would still open a door, window, etc, probably run a CO and CO2 detector just to CYA and stay within guidelines.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/pit/workplacehazards/ventilation.html

 

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Just step up to one of these, I run one at work, my suggestion is don't. It's a heavy SOB.

View attachment 749000

Long term I would like to get one that size. A 3 speed Morley 44. I would also have to upgrade my truck. My liftgate struggles to lift a Meco 35 and can't lift a M37wc.

 

[4Waters]

Long term I would like to get one that size. A 3 speed Morley 44. I would also have to upgrade my truck. My liftgate struggles to lift a Meco 35 and can't lift a M37wc.

1100lbs but it feels heavier especially after a few hours. The one I use doesn't cut very straight, I have to muscle it around a lot. Guys before me have dropped it off the back of the truck a few times before I got there.

 

[monkeyswrench]

If this is an ongoing endeavor for your business, the electric stuff is an option, but pricey. I cross paths with a guy in Pheonix doing retrofit and plumbing stuff in occupied office buildings. He was running 3 phase motors on coring rigs and saws. In his trailer he mounted a military surplus genset, and 100ft lengths of cords. I'm not electrically savvy, but they looked the diameter of a garden hose. I guess it would all depend on the type of work, and how much of it requires indoor sawing.

 

[rrrr]

Almost everything known to man is being developed nowadays with lithium batteries I would look in that direction.

A battery large enough to run a large concrete saw for the same number of cuts a gallon of gas provides would weigh about 700 lbs.

 

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1100lbs but it feels heavier especially after a few hours. The one I use doesn't cut very straight, I have to muscle it around a lot. Guys before me have dropped it off the back of the truck a few times before I got there.

It happens. A guy we use had one go tumbling down I15 at Tom's Farms. They had it cutting a week later. Also had a guy drop a new saw in front of the owners house. Lol

If this is an ongoing endeavor for your business, the electric stuff is an option, but pricey. I cross paths with a guy in Pheonix doing retrofit and plumbing stuff in occupied office buildings. He was running 3 phase motors on coring rigs and saws. In his trailer he mounted a military surplus genset, and 100ft lengths of cords. I'm not electrically savvy, but they looked the diameter of a garden hose. I guess it would all depend on the type of work, and how much of it requires indoor sawing.

More than likely he was running a 400hz power system. Small, fast, powerful motors. Expensive. $40k for a walk behind saw and 400hz generator to power it.

 

[monkeyswrench]

It happens. A guy we use had one go tumbling down I15 at Tom's Farms. They had it cutting a week later. Also had a guy drop a new saw in front of the owners house. Lol

More than likely he was running a 400hz power system. Small, fast, powerful motors. Expensive. $40k for a walk behind saw and 400hz generator to power it.

I remember him saying he started out with one hz on the motors, but had them rewound a few times because they didn't last. Then changed out to a higher hz rating. Don't understand that part...I just smiled and nodded I figured it had to do with the work enviornment.

 

[Headless hula]

The "real deal" concrete cutters use a hydraulically powered saw....
At least for interior projects.
Less people die that way.

 

[F.U.IRS]

The "real deal" concrete cutters use a hydraulically powered saw....
At least for interior projects.
Less people die that way.

Hydraulic power for wall sawing and drilling big holes is the norm out here.Usually electric power for indoor flat sawing, but a lot of guys do use propane like the O.P was asking about

 

[monkeyswrench]

The "real deal" concrete cutters use a hydraulically powered saw....
At least for interior projects.
Less people die that way.

Hula...In Cali the hydros are used on lowriders...shit would get jacked

 

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Hydraulic power is older tech and becoming phased out. The new thing is high cycle electric power (aka 400hz). Smaller, faster, easier, and more efficient.

 

[F.U.IRS]

Hydraulic power is older tech and becoming phased out. The new thing is high cycle electric power (aka 400hz). Smaller, faster, easier, and more efficient.

Kinda funny.We were using high cycle 40 years ago at Concrete Coring Co when I first started in the business

 

[monkeyswrench]

Ok, dumbass question...what's the advantage of a higher cyclical rate? Is it more efficient, more torque from startup...

Just info to put into the mental Rol-a-dex

 

[$hot]

What kind of work are you going to do?

 

[Racey]

Ok, dumbass question...what's the advantage of a higher cyclical rate? Is it more efficient, more torque from startup...

Just info to put into the mental Rol-a-dex

Faster motor with a gear reduction, and or lighter cores and tighter fields make for a lighter motor per hp, more ideal for mobile applications where weight is an issue. But more expensive to mfg, and more expensive to drive.

 

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Ok, dumbass question...what's the advantage of a higher cyclical rate? Is it more efficient, more torque from startup...

Just info to put into the mental Rol-a-dex

This video explains it well. Fast forward to 2:30 to see the drill demonstration.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Hmm...maximum torque at higher rpm, not startup. Mr. Wizards of RDP!

Thank you, not an electrical engineer kind of person. Much better with understanding applied ideas.

 

[Waterjunky]

I want the vacuum...
On the grinder, I would worry more about the disk coming apart. That happens and it is bad already. I can just imagine that disk going faster and more power through it.

 

[Racey]

Hmm...maximum torque at higher rpm, not startup. Mr. Wizards of RDP!

Thank you, not an electrical engineer kind of person. Much better with understanding applied ideas.

Yep, HP is just the product of torque and time. Torque is power measured in an instant of time (The easiest way to think about that is startup, or in a piston engine the amount of power of a single power stroke of a piston) HP is dervived from how many times per minute that torque can be harnessed (How many times the fields in the induction motor can attract/repel the rotor, or how many power strokes the motor can make in a given amount of time).

 

[Riverbottom]

I don't know where you are located, but I use Concrete Coring Co. out of Phoenix. They bring their truck with the 400 cycle generator . They have been doing this for years and build their own generators. They are real cool if you are a boat guy. They all have special Casale parallel shaft gear boxes between the engine and generator. I have used them in Parker a couple of times. It isn't cheap, but reasonable for what they do, and are very professional. They also support boat racing.

 

[4Waters]

It happens. A guy we use had one go tumbling down I15 at Tom's Farms. They had it cutting a week later. Also had a guy drop a new saw in front of the owners house. Lol

More than likely he was running a 400hz power system. Small, fast, powerful motors. Expensive. $40k for a walk behind saw and 400hz generator to power it.

Here is how straight it cuts. I cut this this morning and since it wasn't a critical cut I just let it go. This saw kicks my ass when I have to make a straight cut.

This is as straight as I can get it.

 

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Here is how straight it cuts. I cut this this morning and since it wasn't a critical cut I just let it go. This saw kicks my ass when I have to make a straight cut.

View attachment 749277

This is as straight as I can get it.
View attachment 749278

Wow. Here's the very first cut I did with a real saw. I was kinda scratching my head while cutting. I just dropped the blade, set the water, set the speed, and it did all the work. I didn't have to muscle it, just played with the water flow. It seemed to easy. It could really use a cup holder. The saw is a Morley M35.

 

[4Waters]

Wow. Here's the very first cut I did with a real saw. I was kinda scratching my head while cutting. I just dropped the blade, set the water, set the speed, and it did all the work. I didn't have to muscle it, just played with the water flow. It seemed to easy. It could really use a cup holder. The saw is a Morley M35.
View attachment 749289 View attachment 749290

Jealous

 

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Jealous

Your employer has to get you a better saw! That thing is like the penalty box saw.

 

[4Waters]

Your employer has to get you a better saw! That thing is like being in the penalty box.

Not going to happen, the employer is the City of LA. and the saws are leased.

 

[Ouderkirk]

That's a good idea.

This what I'm trying to figure out. If CM is CM then what's the advantage of propane?

The upside for propane is maintanence costs are less.

propane doesn't spill like gasoline, and definately doesn't flash over like gasoline.

It's not the CO that's necessarily the issue with gasoline it's the NOx SOx and CO. The NOx (oxides of nitrogen) and SOx (oxides of Sulphur) that are the issue with gasoline that are not found in propane.

The CO (Carbon Monoxide) and CO2 are about the same per unit volume for gasoline and LP.

 

[F.U.IRS]

This video explains it well. Fast forward to 2:30 to see the drill demonstration.

Dempsey is like the godfather of concrete cutting. I ran a prototype drill for him years ago as a demonstration in the Cajon Pass. It was to drill holes for a mudjacking project that was going on up there. We were drilling 2" diameter holes through 18" of concrete in a little over 2 seconds.Literally as fast as I could spin the handle. Unfortunately for him the holes were too smooth and the mudjacking machine would just blow out of them. There was also a story that went around about a bank robbery where a 30" hole was drilled inverted through the bottom of the vault, I guess he was questioned about it .Not many people could drill a hole like that

 

[F.U.IRS]

Here is how straight it cuts. I cut this this morning and since it wasn't a critical cut I just let it go. This saw kicks my ass when I have to make a straight cut.
What rpm are you running? And what size blade are you using for your first pass. I assume you're step cutting not just burying the blade and trying to make one pass.

View attachment 749277

This is as straight as I can get it.
View attachment 749278

 

[4Waters]

We only have 1 blade 24" and it is 2 to 3 passes depending on how thick it is.

 

[F.U.IRS]

You cant cut a straight line starting with a 24 .There's too much flex, I would recommend starting with a 16" .Make 2 passes with it then step up to the 24. I never cut at over 2200 rpm. The bigger the blade slow the rpm's down a little it will help the blade stay open and cut faster

 

[4Waters]

You cant cut a straight line starting with a 24 .There's too much flex, I would recommend starting with a 16" .Make 2 passes with it then step up to the 24. I never cut at over 2200 rpm. The bigger the blade slow the rpm's down a little it will help the blade stay open and cut faster

City of LA they aren't going to get a second blade LOL, the last saw didn't pull so hard to one side and I could cut a pretty straight line with a little input.