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4th Amendment & Vessel Searches

BoatCop

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There's been a few threads lately about "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" when Police stop your boat on the water, comparing them to vehicle stops on the roads.

There is a difference and the Supreme Court has consistently held these differences. To fully explain it, here is the decision in their own words:

*Disclaimer: I have always taught and trained my officers that this is a "power" that should not, under any circumstances, be overused or abused. There are too many people on the water doing things that are illegal or unsafe to be bothering someone just because we "can".

Vessel Searches --Not only is the warrant requirement inapplicable to brief stops of vessels, but also none of the safeguards applicable to stops of automobiles on less than probable cause are necessary predicates to stops of vessels. In United States v. Villamonte-Marquez, the Court upheld a random stop and boarding of a vessel by customs agents, lacking any suspicion of wrongdoing, for purpose of inspecting documentation. The boarding was authorized by statute derived from an act of the First Congress, and hence had ''an impressive historical pedigree'' carrying with it a presumption of constitutionality. Moreover, ''important factual differences between vessels located in waters offering ready access to the open sea and automobiles on principal thoroughfares in the border area'' justify application of a less restrictive rule for vessel searches. The reason why random stops of vehicles have been held impermissible under the Fourth Amendment, the Court explained, is that stops at fixed checkpoints or roadblocks are both feasible and less subject to abuse of discretion by authorities. ''But no reasonable claim can be made that permanent checkpoints would be practical on waters such as these where vessels can move in any direction at any time and need not follow established 'avenues' as automobiles must do.'' Because there is a ''substantial'' governmental interest in enforcing documentation laws, ''especially in waters where the need to deter or apprehend smugglers is great,'' the Court found the ''limited'' but not ''minimal'' intrusion occasioned by boarding for documentation inspection to be reasonable.

My note: While the Colorado River and it's lakes are no longer accessible "to the open sea", the ability to flee the jurisdiction onto land or waters of another state on Federal Waterways makes the same decision to be applicable here and on similarly situated Federal Waterways.
 

shintoooo

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Boat Cop threads are awesome :thumbsup

30 pages by tomorrow :D
 

t&y

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Lol... Uh Hmmmmm Shintooooooo you are slipping:D
 

Flyinbowtie

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Hey Alan since you still have access to the books you might try running some definitions of probable cause and reasonable suspicion for the posse here...that one is brewing too.
I don't have the drive to do it anymore, sorry.
 

BoatCop

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Hey Alan since you still have access to the books you might try running some definitions of probable cause and reasonable suspicion for the posse here...that one is brewing too.
I don't have the drive to do it anymore, sorry.

Reasonable suspicion is an articulatable situation whereby a reasonable person would believe that a violation of law may be occurring, although the act itself may not be a crime.

An example would be a guy in dark clothes walking through the neighborhood at 2:00 AM carrying a SONY flatscreen TV on his shoulder.

Reasonable Suspicion would allow a Police Officer, with no other information given, to stop and inquire further as to whether or not a crime has been or is being committed.

Probable Cause is what is required to effect an arrest. That is, that a crime has been committed and there is definitive evidence that this person committed that crime.

In the same hypothetical case above, let's say that the police had just received a report of a burglary a block away where a SONY flatscreen TV had been stolen, and a man in dark clothing was seen fleeing the scene with the TV on his shoulder.

The police would be justified in detaining and arresting that man for the burglary and theft.
 

Flyinbowtie

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I just hope people are willing to put the TV shows aside, along with all the other hogwash and read and understand what you've put up here, Thanks Alan.
-also, fwiw let me add voice to those that appreciate the hell out of what you are trying to do down there, having walked the walk it is thankless indeed, but you are a wealth of information here and I thank you for it.
 
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2Driver

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But if you pull over a Dodge Durango with 20 illegal's crammed in it you can?t ask them for proof of citizenship. :rolleyes:
 

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For the most part, the 4th Amendment does not have the same meaning as it did when first drafted. Your home is the only place left, where an american has any legal protections left, and those protections have loop holes as well.

Under Terry v. Ohio 392 U.S. 1 (1968), law enforcement officers are permitted to conduct a limited warrantless search on a level of suspicion, less than probable cause, under certain circumstances.
 

BoatCop

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But if you pull over a Dodge Durango with 20 illegal's crammed in it you can?t ask them for proof of citizenship. :rolleyes:

They were all brought here by their parents at a young age, so Obama says they can stay.
 

V.O.R.F

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I would tease boat cop for carrying .40

and then ask for a department hat.

then sign the ticket.
 

Chico&Zeus

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Another group that is "Above the Law" is game and fish... I know some detectives back in Illinois where I grew up and if they couldn't get a warrant to search a house or vehicle, they would get game and fish to gain entry looking for evidence of poaching or taking game illegally. Then once they are inside, they find other evidence of crimes and then the police can enter.

It's bullshit but I figure "Don't break the law and you shouldn't have anything to worry about".
 

V.O.R.F

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Another group that is "Above the Law" is game and fish... I know some detectives back in Illinois where I grew up and if they couldn't get a warrant to search a house or vehicle, they would get game and fish to gain entry looking for evidence of poaching or taking game illegally. Then once they are inside, they find other evidence of crimes and then the police can enter.

It's bullshit but I figure "Don't break the law and you shouldn't have anything to worry about".

I wouldnt say thats bullshit, sounds more like smart police work.
 

WATERDOG

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There's been a few threads lately about "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" when Police stop your boat on the water, comparing them to vehicle stops on the roads.

There is a difference and the Supreme Court has consistently held these differences. To fully explain it, here is the decision in their own words:

*Disclaimer: I have always taught and trained my officers that this is a "power" that should not, under any circumstances, be overused or abused. There are too many people on the water doing things that are illegal or unsafe to be bothering someone just because we "can".

Vessel Searches --Not only is the warrant requirement inapplicable to brief stops of vessels, but also none of the safeguards applicable to stops of automobiles on less than probable cause are necessary predicates to stops of vessels. In United States v. Villamonte-Marquez, the Court upheld a random stop and boarding of a vessel by customs agents, lacking any suspicion of wrongdoing, for purpose of inspecting documentation. The boarding was authorized by statute derived from an act of the First Congress, and hence had ''an impressive historical pedigree'' carrying with it a presumption of constitutionality. Moreover, ''important factual differences between vessels located in waters offering ready access to the open sea and automobiles on principal thoroughfares in the border area'' justify application of a less restrictive rule for vessel searches. The reason why random stops of vehicles have been held impermissible under the Fourth Amendment, the Court explained, is that stops at fixed checkpoints or roadblocks are both feasible and less subject to abuse of discretion by authorities. ''But no reasonable claim can be made that permanent checkpoints would be practical on waters such as these where vessels can move in any direction at any time and need not follow established 'avenues' as automobiles must do.'' Because there is a ''substantial'' governmental interest in enforcing documentation laws, ''especially in waters where the need to deter or apprehend smugglers is great,'' the Court found the ''limited'' but not ''minimal'' intrusion occasioned by boarding for documentation inspection to be reasonable.

My note: While the Colorado River and it's lakes are no longer accessible "to the open sea", the ability to flee the jurisdiction onto land or waters of another state on Federal Waterways makes the same decision to be applicable here and on similarly situated Federal Waterways.

"United States v. Villamonte-Marquez," What year was this in?
 

RandyH

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There are too many people on the water doing things that are illegal or unsafe to be bothering someone just because we "can".

Alan, i wish all LE understood this. From my experience this is not the case. :thumbsdown

thanks for the post.
 

V.O.R.F

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There are too many people on the water doing things that are illegal or unsafe to be bothering someone just because we "can".

Alan, i wish all LE understood this. From my experience this is not the case. :thumbsdown

thanks for the post.

unfortunately, I've found this as well.

I've been pulled over 8 times in the last 5 years. 7 of those times, i had no hassle, cops were cordial, always let off with a warning. and thats mostly because I treat the cops with respect from the get go. I always pull waaaaay off the side of the road, turn the car off, act polite and compliant.
that one time, i got pulled over for an expired tag, the officer who pulled me over was a standard napoleon complex type. antagonistic from the get go, cut me off mid sentence, kept trying to get me to admit i was high and had drugs in the car. I was driving a brand new tundra in Laguna Beach, and I'm a clean cut white guy. guy was an all around dick head. he demanded I step out of the car so he could search, and handcuffed me for no reason. i wasnt combative, i complied 100%, i was polite and cooperative. he tore my truck apart and didnt find anything, walked over to me on the curb and started yelling with a finger in my face about how I was lucky this time and he was gonna get me sooner or later and I should really watch my back.
cops are like any other group of people, good apples and bad apples, and in my experience they are mostly good dudes, in fact I have lots of friends who are LEO. but there are always bad apples.
I dont know what the guys issue was, but he was a real dick.
 

Patyacht

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Allen;
Isn't there also a difference in how the laws are applied when operating on Federal waters vs Non- Federal waters?
 

AzGeo

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Well it seems to me that the law pointed out here would not apply to the Parker Strip, both water and roadway. Neither has DIRECT ACCESS to open water or a foreign country border. The size of vessels on Parker would allow captains to 'offer requested papers' without boarding by LEOS. Local LEOs are not FEDERAL AGENTS as in the offered legal opinion, and the entire point of this opinion is to "legal access of vessel/auto/truck documetation by authorities in an open access border/open water zone". None of which resides in Parker. IMHO, while on the waters of Parker (federal waterway) I will produce the correct documents when you (local LEOS) ask, but I am able to refuse you or your crew to board after compliance with your document request. You may board without my permission only if you are direct witness to "possable vessel grave dangers, visable personal injury, visable illegal activity, armed resistance, (and now) percieved threat to national security. So how does a primarily 'Customs, Border Patrol, USCG, Homeland Sec., and Navy federal law' become a working tool in (dam and land locked) Parker ? I need to know....
 

DaveC

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You guys got it all wrong.

The difference between probably cause and reasonable suspicion is a really good lawyer

:D :p
 

koenig

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In BC its the same rules on and off the water. The police may stop a vehicle being operated on the highway at any time to insure that the driver is properly licenced and that the vehicle is licenced, insured and in proper mechanical repair.
 

t&y

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In BC its the same rules on and off the water. The police may stop a vehicle being operated on the highway at any time to insure that the driver is properly licenced and that the vehicle is licenced, insured and in proper mechanical repair.

Yeah that's a no no down here.
 

prosthogod

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In BC its the same rules on and off the water. The police may stop a vehicle being operated on the highway at any time to insure that the driver is properly licenced and that the vehicle is licenced, insured and in proper mechanical repair.

That is why we live in the USA. For the meantime we still have some rights.
As far as the laws boatcop went over, we have all heard them stated before. That doesn't make them right, but it does give LE a big open door to stop anybody at anytime.
It is interesting though that you don't see cops on the water use this power to stop an 18ft run about with 20 Hispanic individuals on board. I'm told this is because they would have to wait too long for ICE cops to show up. But if they saw a truck with 20 Hispanics in the bed what would they do?
There are so many scenarios to bring up it becomes comical. That fact is until, if ever, the laws are changed, LE can and will act like Russian police asking for"papers".
 

BoatCop

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Well it seems to me that the law pointed out here would not apply to the Parker Strip, both water and roadway. Neither has DIRECT ACCESS to open water or a foreign country border. The size of vessels on Parker would allow captains to 'offer requested papers' without boarding by LEOS. Local LEOs are not FEDERAL AGENTS as in the offered legal opinion, and the entire point of this opinion is to "legal access of vessel/auto/truck documetation by authorities in an open access border/open water zone". None of which resides in Parker. IMHO, while on the waters of Parker (federal waterway) I will produce the correct documents when you (local LEOS) ask, but I am able to refuse you or your crew to board after compliance with your document request. You may board without my permission only if you are direct witness to "possable vessel grave dangers, visable personal injury, visable illegal activity, armed resistance, (and now) percieved threat to national security. So how does a primarily 'Customs, Border Patrol, USCG, Homeland Sec., and Navy federal law' become a working tool in (dam and land locked) Parker ? I need to know....

The principles of the Supreme Court case I mentioned have been applied on inland waters, even lakes that are completely within a state that are not considered Federal Waters. The below case is just one decision. Although there is no precedent set in other states by this ruling, it's gives a view of how courts MAY rule in similar situations.

http://www.cca.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/152999a.htm]
 

Guest

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The principles of the Supreme Court case I mentioned have been applied on inland waters, even lakes that are completely within a state that are not considered Federal Waters. The below case is just one decision. Although there is no precedent set in other states by this ruling, it's gives a view of how courts MAY rule in similar situations.

http://www.cca.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/152999a.htm]

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jetboatmatt

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I don't care if the law pulls me over, but when you do please have some respect for my boat and my Family!! Put buoys out or give me time to put mine on!!! I have seen countless times Leo's hitting nice boats with there metal beaters!! I think the law is a must have and I applaud the huge effort of making our water ways safer!!!But I would like to see more effort done in being nice to the guy that is being respectful to the officer!! Boat Cop is the man around here in giving us all the info we need
Thanks for your service and keeping everyone safe!!!!
 

BoatCop

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I don't care if the law pulls me over, but when you do please have some respect for my boat and my Family!! Put buoys out or give me time to put mine on!!! I have seen countless times Leo's hitting nice boats with there metal beaters!! I think the law is a must have and I applaud the huge effort of making our water ways safer!!!But I would like to see more effort done in being nice to the guy that is being respectful to the officer!! Boat Cop is the man around here in giving us all the info we need
Thanks for your service and keeping everyone safe!!!!

Which is exactly why the last set of new patrol boats we bought have built-in fendering systems. All our patrol boats now have either foam or inflatable sponsons to protect both our and the public's boats when alongside.

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