On the Mexico and Canada Tariffs

[530RL]

Thank god... So are you saying I didn't need to build the underground bunker?

No you do not. Nor do you need a bunch of bullets and beans.

An apartment in Monaco with a second passport is a much better plan.

Even the Germans during WWII left Monaco alone.

 

[t&y]

No you do not. Nor do you need a bunch of bullets and beans.

An apartment in Monaco with a second passport is a much better plan.

We agree on the apartment, but fundamentally will never agree on the lack of bullets and beans.

 

[Uncle Dave]

You seem to forget he was basically handcuffed his first term, then the Libturds moved in and have controlled much of what has happened for the last 6 years.

He has been in office for 100 days this time around. Did you expect it all to fall into place within that 100 days?

Your bias is starting to bleed through here.

Do you believe you are entitled to being successful in your business?

I dont forget squat . Tariffs were a thing Trump put on in his first term on his own volition with the promise to bring back business then.
He wasnt handcuffed when he levied them them.

I expect more out of Trump than I do from a management team with ten years of experience - show the plan, work the plan.
So far I haven't seen the plan , just a continuation of the taxes from round one. He's had plenty of time to work on this.


On my bias

I've given trump a few wins, killing DEI was enormously entertaining for me, and the right thing to do.
We'll see with Doge, its been fun to watch, but the savings seem to be dwindling.

I'm not giving him this one as a win because he hasn't done what he promised - full stop.

This place scores everything he does as a win, and looks a lot like the rights version of the left - blind to their own bullshit.

I do not believe anyone is "entitled" to success it has to be earned.

Isn't that what the E in DEI meant - Didnt Earn It?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Maybe it's marked on this calendar...it's tied to the previous end of the world. View attachment 1501909

Didnt it stop in 2011?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Didnt it stop in 2011?

Did it stop, or did it just rollover like an '83 Chevy odometer?

Maybe we'll see in a few centuries...

 

[lbhsbz]

Doesn't matter to me if you own a business or not, are paying tariff's on products coming in or not, I'm just real curious about a specific issue. All are welcome to answer here.

With all this nonsense going on with President Trump actually doing things he promised on the campaign trail, when is it again when the world ends and we are all on the streets? I'm not sure if it all comes to a head this Friday, or if we still have until next Friday.

We don’t know either….and that’s the brunt of the issue

 

[Uncle Dave]

Actually, environmental is a huge issue in China...one of the reasons that oil-sand casting is mostly gone in most foundries in favor of resin sand castings....and electric furnaces vs coal/gas. A good friend of mine (who lives here in Whittier) used to own one of our rotor plants in China, and still does lots of business there and in Taiwan....he is Taiwanese. I've known him for 20+ years and we speak/visit weekly. China is not as the internet has led up to believe it is...

He sent me this last week from Ningbo when he called and I heard birds singing in the background….note the last entry..



. View attachment 1501803

Kind of disingenuous.

Ask a business guy in Hong Kong how he feels about having his democratic vote removed - and I'd bet he feels opressed.

 

[angiebaby]

Given America is at full manufacturing employment. Which things would you like to quit manufacturing in America to manufacture hydraulic hoses and fittings?

Why do we need to quit manufacturing something here in order to manufacture something else? Are we unable to build any new manufacturing facilities? We can only use existing buildings? I'm missing something in your argument. Not enough manufacturing workers? LOL, tens of thousands of federal workers just got laid off. We have thousands and thousands of people working part-time at Best Buy/Taco Bell/WalMart/DollarTree. There are plenty of people to fill these positions.

 

[t&y]

I dont forget squat . Tariffs were a thing Trump put on in his first term on his own volition with the promise to bring back business then.
He wasnt handcuffed when he levied them them.

I expect more out of Trump than I do from a management team with ten years of experience - show the plan, work the plan.
So far I haven't seen the plan , just a continuation of the taxes from round one. He's had plenty of time to work on this.


On my bias

I've given trump a few wins, killing DEI was enormously entertaining for me, and the right thing to do.
We'll see with Doge, its been fun to watch, but the savings seem to be dwindling.

I'm not giving him this one as a win because he hasn't done what he promised - full stop.

This place scores everything he does as a win, and looks a lot like the rights version of the left - blind to their own bullshit.

I do not believe anyone is "entitled" to success it has to be earned.

Isn't that what the E in DEI meant - Didnt Earn It?

Okay. Does it take more than 100 days to bring back manufacturing and start using the funds from the tariff's that I'm pretty sure are still on hold? Yeah, he put tariff's in place during his first try at this and as we agree was already handcuffed. Maybe look to what our government has been spending money on to figure out where any of that revenue from those tariff's went.

I never gathered you for part of the instant gratification crowd but it appears based on this discussion you are.

We do agree, no one is entitled to be successful in business. I'm pretty sure I said this early on this discussion (may have been a different thread) but you as the business owner need to adapt to the environment. If the business model you built does not work anymore, either change it or give it up.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Why do we need to quit manufacturing something here in order to manufacture something else? Are we unable to build any new manufacturing facilities? We can only use existing buildings? I'm missing something in your argument. Not enough manufacturing workers? LOL, tens of thousands of federal workers just got laid off. We have thousands and thousands of people working part-time at Best Buy/Taco Bell/WalMart/DollarTree. There are plenty of people to fill these positions.

That's just it, those jobs never had to leave. Their jobs were off-shored, simply to increase the bottom line. Walmart didn't start importing cheap, Chinese crap because "We demanded lower prices", they did it to raise their margins and keep market share.

My example played out in nearly every industrial product line we sold. We didn't demand lower prices, but Gates parent co BOD demanded higher margins.

 

[was thatguy]

Why do we need to quit manufacturing something here in order to manufacture something else? Are we unable to build any new manufacturing facilities? We can only use existing buildings? I'm missing something in your argument. Not enough manufacturing workers? LOL, tens of thousands of federal workers just got laid off. We have thousands and thousands of people working part-time at Best Buy/Taco Bell/WalMart/DollarTree. There are plenty of people to fill these positions.

That’s just part of his typical hyperbole rhetoric.
It’s how he steers and foreshadows his next in thread topic change.
He’ll turn this into a ship building disaster thread in one page, given the chance.

He takes a kernel of truth, so that it’s somewhat arguable, and pretzels it into a National catastrophe.
It’s actually quite remarkable the effort he puts into it.

 

[lbhsbz]

That's just it, those jobs never had to leave. Their jobs were off-shored, simply to increase the bottom line. Walmart didn't start importing cheap, Chinese crap because "We demanded lower prices", they did it to raise their margins and keep market share.

My example played out in nearly every industrial product line we sold. We didn't demand lower prices, but Gates parent co BOD demanded higher margins.

So, I'll ask again...when this all happened, why didn't you start a factory to make everything here if you so upset about production moving to China?

 

[was thatguy]

That's just it, those jobs never had to leave. Their jobs were off-shored, simply to increase the bottom line. Walmart didn't start importing cheap, Chinese crap because "We demanded lower prices", they did it to raise their margins and keep market share.

My example played out in nearly every industrial product line we sold. We didn't demand lower prices, but Gates parent co BOD demanded higher margins.

Your perspective has been a topic of discussion here in the shack this morning.
It’s enlightening to realize that margins steer the actions of large scale importers and manufacturers, since the only thing we keep reading about on here is that we the consumers brought this on ourselves with some unspoken demand for cheaper shit.
Sort of brings into focus the lack of sincerity being fed to us by the c-suite crowd.


I’m glad you decided to post.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Okay. Does it take more than 100 days to bring back manufacturing and start using the funds from the tariff's that I'm pretty sure are still on hold? Yeah, he put tariff's in place during his first try at this and as we agree was already handcuffed. Maybe look to what our government has been spending money on to figure out where any of that revenue from those tariff's went.

I never gathered you for part of the instant gratification crowd but it appears based on this discussion you are.

We do agree, no one is entitled to be successful in business. I'm pretty sure I said this early on this discussion (may have been a different thread) but you as the business owner need to adapt to the environment. If the business model you built does not work anymore, either change it or give it up.

100 days? He started the clock in 2018 after a year in office.

The guy had a full year to make a plan before he pulled the first trigger, then 3 to execute it.

Thing is there is no plan to bring manufacturing back. This is just a tax increase.

This is what I mean by you and this place at large not calling the ball on this guy when he blows it.

My business will survive just fine but many wont.

 

[17 10 Flat]

So, I'll ask again...when this all happened, why didn't you start a factory to make everything here if you so upset about production moving to China?

I’m not in manufacturing, but if China is using slave labor sells a widget for .25 cents and it would cost me a dollar for the same item, why would I invest millions.

 

[was thatguy]

So, I'll ask again...when this all happened, why didn't you start a factory to make everything here if you so upset about production moving to China?

He doesn’t sound upset to me?
He sounds like a person who ran his business very successfully, adapting and growing his company within the parameters his suppliers set?

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

So, I'll ask again...when this all happened, why didn't you start a factory to make everything here if you so upset about production moving to China?

Because I was an Industrial Distributor, not a Manufacturer. What we did do, was start buying the Majority of our Hose from Goodyear (Contitech). They made it in Galesburg Il. We bought most Hydraulic crimp fittings from Kurt Manufacturing. They produced 100% domestic in Lyman Nebraska. Only Airway Mfg, made steel hydraulic adapters domestically. And even they, only produced straights, no shapes. Shapes are 100% offshore and are a commodity.

My patriotism isn't one of convenience, that changes based on profit margin.

I didn't complain, I acted. Why don't you start your own plant?

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Thing is there is no plan to bring manufacturing back

Except, though isn't that kind of an important thing? Even if you are being ironic - sarcastic, ...

I mean, I can't tell you how many complaints here at RDP expressed that exact sentiment, and rightly so.
To that end, the inability to manufacture the implements of competition/war is a serious or grave national security issue.

I think you are right that the absence of a plan is a real big problem - and a giant void in leadership - and that the means are obscuring the ends, and that the messaging is haphazard and impossible to make business plans aligned with, which as many businesspeople here know is a giant f-ing problem.

I wish the MAGA team would clarify things for us lowlife citizens so we can plan, otherwise it just looks like chaos for the sake of chaos.

 

[530RL]

Why do we need to quit manufacturing something here in order to manufacture something else? Are we unable to build any new manufacturing facilities? We can only use existing buildings? I'm missing something in your argument. Not enough manufacturing workers? LOL, tens of thousands of federal workers just got laid off. We have thousands and thousands of people working part-time at Best Buy/Taco Bell/WalMart/DollarTree. There are plenty of people to fill these positions.

Unfortunately, those “available” individuals are neither trained or willing to do those manufacturing jobs/ physical jobs otherwise they would be flocking to the open positions now.

They would rather do service jobs, office jobs or others that do not require physical labor or learning technical skills.

Secondly, we are at full employment with over 1 open job for every single person looking for work. Math would suggest one must take a worker from one industry, to train it and give it to new manufacturing jobs, otherwise manufacturers would simply be taking workers from their competitors, and so forth.

Thirdly, we banned forced labor in America. How does one force someone out of what they are doing now to go work in a plant bending coat hangars, casting metal parts in a blast furnace, making toasters or putting together floor jacks?

But for the sake of argument let’s say we could force those individuals into those roles, wouldn’t an organized government roll out training programs hand in hand with the tariffs to help supply the necessary workers for such jobs as opposed to doing what is proposed now, ending training programs and the associated funding?

If the goal is really let’s bring it all back and cut imports as close to zero as well as exports, to hell with the costs or competitiveness of it, shouldn’t the government have a comprehensive and compelling organized plan to do so? And where is that plan now? Even an outline?

 

[t&y]

100 days? He started the clock in 2018 after a year in office.

Well, and this is what I mean by your bias is showing through. Do you remember how his first term went? You seem to think he was able to accomplish everything he wanted while completely ignoring the well known facts that he was surrounded by his enemies (known and uknown) and continually under attack via the DOJ/FBI investigations and corrupt politicians. He had full control of the senate and house on paper, not in reality for the first two years, the last two years I'm pretty sure nobody expected him to get much done... Then Covid hit.

The guy had a full year to make a plan before he pulled the first trigger, then 3 to execute it.

Thing is there is no plan to bring manufacturing back. This is just a tax increase.

This is what I mean by you and this place at large not calling the ball on this guy when he blows it.

My business will survive just fine but many wont.

Call it what you want. We can agree to disagree that I don't "call the ball" on Trump. Difference is I don't ever expect the government under Trump to get things done quickly with any long term effects. And again, you'd have to look into what the government was spending our tax dollars on to figure out where the revenue from the tariff's went. I'd say DOGE has been doing a great job at exposing the tip of the iceberg in that regard, but even then, they've had 100 days using algorithm's. That is not a full investigation.

I am the guy simply sitting here saying give them time.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Your perspective has been a topic of discussion here in the shack this morning.
It’s enlightening to realize that margins steer the actions of large scale importers and manufacturers, since the only thing we keep reading about on here is that we the consumers brought this on ourselves with some unspoken demand for cheaper shit.
Sort of brings into focus the lack of sincerity being fed to us by the c-suite crowd.


I’m glad you decided to post.

Thanks. Those who are affected by the tariff issue, seem to only care about bottom line and not how theirs or their corporate actions affect America and American citizens.

They are obviously free to do so, but when their game is changed, its gonna hurt.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

you guys need to read Hayek "The Road to Serfdom". I mean to really read it yourself because the summaries and the wiki entries are a general message

...reading the book is very convincing.

I am pretty sure the Chinese leadership has absorbed Hayek's message thoroughly.

we can't reverse our well intended policies of the past. We can't give back all the stuff we willfully/gleefully bought to erase the problem.
And arguing about the past is pointless when the future is at stake.

 

[lbhsbz]

Because I was an Industrial Distributor, not a Manufacturer. What we did do, was start buying the Majority of our Hose from Goodyear (Contitech). They made it in Galesburg Il. We bought most Hydraulic crimp fittings from Kurt Manufacturing. They produced 100% domestic in Lyman Nebraska. Only Airway Mfg, made steel hydraulic adapters domestically. And even they, only produced straights, no shapes. Shapes are 100% offshore and are a commodity.

My patriotism isn't one of convenience, that changes based on profit margin.

I didn't complain, I acted. Why don't you start your own plant?

Because much like you, I am a distributor, not a manufacturer. I source components from the best manufacturers I can find, and then assemble them into kits....just like you sourced fittings and hose stock and assembled them into finished hoses. I would be more than happy to start making some of my own parts, but the entry fee is simply not possible. I stock 400 different boot part numbers, for example....If I pick the 11 hottest movers, I need 2 molds for each part number (I offer in both silicone and rubber)....low end is $15K/mold, plus a used press for $30-35K. That's $330K before we even make any parts. If I'm lucky, I'll do 1/2 mil gross this year, of which maybe $100K involves these 11 part numbers. Doesn't work. If this becomes my only option, we'll just shut it down and go find something else to do.

Price does not really matter to me, to a point. There becomes a point when the rebuild parts to repair a unit will approach the cost of a complete new OEM unit...and that won't work either. I'd gladly pay 2-3 times what I'm paying now if I could simply get what I need....which I am having a lot of trouble doing currently.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

Unfortunately, those “available” individuals are neither trained or willing to do those manufacturing jobs/ physical jobs otherwise they would be flocking to the open positions now.

They would rather do service jobs, office jobs or others that do not require physical labor or learning technical skills.

Secondly, we are at full employment with over 1 open job for every single person looking for work. Math would suggest one must take a worker from one industry, to train it and give it to new manufacturing jobs, otherwise manufacturers would simply be taking workers from their competitors, and so forth.

Thirdly, we banned forced labor in America. How does one force someone out of what they are doing now to go work in a plant bending coat hangars, casting metal parts in a blast furnace, making toasters or putting together floor jacks?

But for the sake of argument let’s say we could force those individuals into those roles, wouldn’t an organized government roll out training programs hand in hand with the tariffs to help supply the necessary workers for such jobs as opposed to doing what is proposed now, ending training programs and the associated funding?

If the goal is really let’s bring it all back and cut imports as close to zero as well as exports, to hell with the costs or competitiveness of it, shouldn’t the government have a comprehensive and compelling organized plan to do so? And where is that plan now? Even an outline?

Assembling a Burrito at Taco Bell is a skill easily converted to assembling a widget in a manufacturing facility. When we started seeing mature adults working in fast food we should have asked why. When I was a kid in the 80's McDonald's was staffed by High School kids. Today it is middle age people. McDonald's helped build skills in young adults that they carried into careers, today those jobs are not building tomorrows business leaders, they are keeping families in poverty. Less headcount turn if you don't hire teenagers I guess.

The employment data leaves out people who are no longer seeking jobs. There is a massive shadow labor force that goes uncounted. Can we get them back in the workforce? Who knows but if the hand outs dry up perhaps they go back to work. Of course the part time high school labor is not included either.

Data is subjective, but you can trust it if you like.

 

[530RL]

That's just it, those jobs never had to leave. Their jobs were off-shored, simply to increase the bottom line. Walmart didn't start importing cheap, Chinese crap because "We demanded lower prices", they did it to raise their margins and keep market share.

My example played out in nearly every industrial product line we sold. We didn't demand lower prices, but Gates parent co BOD demanded higher margins.

This is a disingenuous explanation and you know it.

What happened, and what happens in all industries is as follows.

Someone goes to a lower cost place, and sources equivalent parts at a cheaper price in small scale taking tiny volumes. The dominant players seeing this and understand from history that they must do the same or the upstart will start taking large volumes.

So they move manufacturing to where they can lower prices and counter the new entrant. The new entrant remains, and the dominant players know that if they didn’t move to lower costs they would eventually go out of business as the new entrant had a cost advantage. You say that prices did not go down, but what you don’t admit is that had it stayed all manufactured in the higher cost location, prices would have gone up even more. And the legacy businesses know they must too move, or die.

No one wants to get on a plane to China every month, no one wants to move manufacturing to a lower cost location, but you dam well know that if they don’t they go out of business due to COMPETITON from upstarts as the consumer will take the lower cost product.

Show me one customer who said, “feel free to raise the prices as much as you need to in order to manufacture in the US, I am happy to pay it”. A lot of people will not even pay for their TV programming, they would rather steal it leaving the content creator with no pay for his work.

Snap On didn’t move some manufacturing out of the US for margin, they did it because they were losing market share to Harbor Freight and other lower price point competitiors.

That is the reality. If companies don’t move to lower cost locations, their competitors do and they die as the customer votes with his wallet.

 

[530RL]

Assembling a Burrito at Taco Bell is a skill easily converted to assembling a widget in a manufacturing facility. When we started seeing mature adults working in fast food we should have asked why. When I was a kid in the 80's McDonald's was staffed by High School kids. Today it is middle age people. McDonald's helped build skills in young adults that they carried into careers, today those jobs are not building tomorrows business leaders, they are keeping families in poverty. Less headcount turn if you don't hire teenagers I guess.

The employment data leaves out people who are no longer seeking jobs. There is a massive shadow labor force that goes uncounted. Can we get them back in the workforce? Who knows but if the hand outs dry up perhaps they go back to work. Of course the part time high school labor is not included either.

Data is subjective, but you can trust it if you like.

I’m not just looking at data, I am looking at real day to day experience. We don’t have a single business that can not use more qualfied and willing to work help.

And we are not alone.

I get the ivory tower argument that the Chipotle worker can operate a complex automated plant, or can build a quarter million square foot industrial building. It is easy peasy for the conversion. Not my experience. And when they fuck something up, it costs real money, unlike just tossing the burrito in the trash and making a new one.

Simply not my experience. I’m not trusting the data, I am living the data and the reality.

 

[regor]

you guys need to read Hayek "The Road to Serfdom". I mean to really read it yourself because the summaries and the wiki entries are a general message

...reading the book is very convincing.

I am pretty sure the Chinese leadership has absorbed Hayek's message thoroughly.

we can't reverse our well intended policies of the past. We can't give back all the stuff we willfully/gleefully bought to erase the problem.
And arguing about the past is pointless when the future is at stake.

And the future is pain and THAT is what the oligarchs and bought politicians are counting on to continue their wealth grab.

This nation does not have the stomach for it and will get what they deserve.

 

[angiebaby]

I’m not just looking at data, I am looking at real day to day experience. We don’t have a single business that can not use more qualfied and willing to work help.

And we are not alone.

I get the ivory tower argument that the Chipotle worker can operate a complex automated plant, or can build a quarter million square foot industrial building. It is easy peasy for the conversion. Not my experience. And when they fuck something up, it costs real money, unlike just tossing the burrito in the trash and making a new one.

Simply not my experience. I’m not trusting the data, I am living the data and the reality.

So, do people not want to work in manufacturing because they are low-paid/low-skilled jobs, or is it that these jobs require highly skilled folks and there are not enough qualified people? I'm confused. No one is expecting a Chipotle worker to operate a complex automated plant, but there are a lot of entry level widget assembling positions that can lead to higher level and more skilled positions within that complex automated plant.

Also, the jobs data not only underreports those who have left the job market, as the hot guy with the big wood stated above, it also underreports those in part-time positions and working 2-3 jobs. This skews the data considerably.

 

[was thatguy]

Unfortunately, those “available” individuals are neither trained or willing to do those manufacturing jobs/ physical jobs otherwise they would be flocking to the open positions now.

They would rather do service jobs, office jobs or others that do not require physical labor or learning technical skills.

Secondly, we are at full employment with over 1 open job for every single person looking for work. Math would suggest one must take a worker from one industry, to train it and give it to new manufacturing jobs, otherwise manufacturers would simply be taking workers from their competitors, and so forth.

Thirdly, we banned forced labor in America. How does one force someone out of what they are doing now to go work in a plant bending coat hangars, casting metal parts in a blast furnace, making toasters or putting together floor jacks?

But for the sake of argument let’s say we could force those individuals into those roles, wouldn’t an organized government roll out training programs hand in hand with the tariffs to help supply the necessary workers for such jobs as opposed to doing what is proposed now, ending training programs and the associated funding?

If the goal is really let’s bring it all back and cut imports as close to zero as well as exports, to hell with the costs or competitiveness of it, shouldn’t the government have a comprehensive and compelling organized plan to do so? And where is that plan now? Even an outline?

Here we go.

 

[530RL]

That's just it, those jobs never had to leave. Their jobs were off-shored, simply to increase the bottom line. Walmart didn't start importing cheap, Chinese crap because "We demanded lower prices", they did it to raise their margins and keep market share.

My example played out in nearly every industrial product line we sold. We didn't demand lower prices, but Gates parent co BOD demanded higher margins.

@Skinny Tire AH

After noodling on this I have a question.

Had Gates and other suppliers continued to solely produce in the United States and never moved to lower cost places, is it your contention that those companies would to this day have the exact same margins, market share and competitive position? That they did in fact never have to leave.

That any company that moved manufacturing did not have to do it. The lower cost competition would have made no inroads on their business model as the competition came from offshore?

So, do people not want to work in manufacturing because they are low-paid/low-skilled jobs, or is it that these jobs require highly skilled folks and there are not enough qualified people? I'm confused. No one is expecting a Chipotle worker to operate a complex automated plant, but there are a lot of entry level widget assembling positions that can lead to higher level and more skilled positions within that complex automated plant.

Also, the jobs data not only underreports those who have left the job market, as the hot guy with the big wood stated above, it also underreports those in part-time positions and working 2-3 jobs. This skews the data considerably.

I have no idea. All I know is that my experience, the data and other companies experience remains the same.

I agree that there are a lot of people in those other jobs, but it would appear that they may bitch about their station in life, but they are not willing to do the tough work to move into manufacturing/physical jobs?

Your point is valid about the pool, but absent labor camps, I am not sure how to indenture them into jobs they simply will not freely do now despite all the openings.

 

[t&y]

So, do people not want to work in manufacturing because they are low-paid/low-skilled jobs, or is it that these jobs require highly skilled folks and there are not enough qualified people? I'm confused. No one is expecting a Chipotle worker to operate a complex automated plant, but there are a lot of entry level widget assembling positions that can lead to higher level and more skilled positions within that complex automated plant.

I tell this to my teenagers all the time. They are just now starting to look for employment and I'm constantly reminding them to look beyond learning a basic task. Find an industry where there is actual room for growth.

The problem I see is I don't know of too many opportunity's for unqualified people to start in a manufacturing job without having an in. The highly paid positions either need to have prior experience, or a ton of technological education. I believe those used to be attainable with on the job low-level entry positions, but I'm not seeing those available anymore.

My main push is for them to learn a trade and build a business off that trade.

Also, the jobs data not only underreports those who have left the job market, as the hot guy with the big wood stated above, it also underreports those in part-time positions and working 2-3 jobs. This skews the data considerably.

Hot guy with the big wood...

 

[Smitty7]

Unfortunately, those “available” individuals are neither trained or willing to do those manufacturing jobs/ physical jobs otherwise they would be flocking to the open positions now.

They would rather do service jobs, office jobs or others that do not require physical labor or learning technical skills.

Secondly, we are at full employment with over 1 open job for every single person looking for work. Math would suggest one must take a worker from one industry, to train it and give it to new manufacturing jobs, otherwise manufacturers would simply be taking workers from their competitors, and so forth.

Thirdly, we banned forced labor in America. How does one force someone out of what they are doing now to go work in a plant bending coat hangars, casting metal parts in a blast furnace, making toasters or putting together floor jacks?

But for the sake of argument let’s say we could force those individuals into those roles, wouldn’t an organized government roll out training programs hand in hand with the tariffs to help supply the necessary workers for such jobs as opposed to doing what is proposed now, ending training programs and the associated funding?

If the goal is really let’s bring it all back and cut imports as close to zero as well as exports, to hell with the costs or competitiveness of it, shouldn’t the government have a comprehensive and compelling organized plan to do so? And where is that plan now? Even an outline?

Now you want the government to do all your business planning for you. Isn't it you that's always screaming less government ? You are so full of shit it ain't funny. Let me guess . We need those immgrants here for those jobs right ?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Well, and this is what I mean by your bias is showing through. Do you remember how his first term went? You seem to think he was able to accomplish everything he wanted while completely ignoring the well known facts that he was surrounded by his enemies (known and uknown) and continually under attack via the DOJ/FBI investigations and corrupt politicians. He had full control of the senate and house on paper, not in reality for the first two years, the last two years I'm pretty sure nobody expected him to get much done... Then Covid hit.

Call it what you want. We can agree to disagree that I don't "call the ball" on Trump. Difference is I don't ever expect the government under Trump to get things done quickly with any long term effects. And again, you'd have to look into what the government was spending our tax dollars on to figure out where the revenue from the tariff's went. I'd say DOGE has been doing a great job at exposing the tip of the iceberg in that regard, but even then, they've had 100 days using algorithm's. That is not a full investigation.

I am the guy simply sitting here saying give them time.

You believe he needs time. Im saying he's already had a lot of it and has failed to deliver either results or even framework for success.

If not accepting excuses makes me biased then so be it.

Maybe he shouldn't have taken our money without the ability to execute?

He taxed us then with a promised outcome - then he taxed us again even more.

He didn't deliver then, and he's not showing us how he will deliver now.

I expect more than you guys do.

Id be happy to give him time if he showed he actually had a plan he was executing towards, but it doenst yet exist.

As wonderfully entertaining as DOGE has been, I'm more interested in what the savings will be than the circus surrounding it.
What is the current savings count? Is it trillions, billions millions, or nothing?

 

[t&y]

You believe he needs time. Im saying he's already had a lot of it and has failed to deliver either results or even framework for success.

If not accepting excuses makes me biased then so be it.

Maybe he shouldn't have taken our money without the ability to execute?

He taxed us then with a promised outcome - then he taxed us again even more.

He didn't deliver then, and he's not showing us how he will deliver now.

I expect more than you guys do.

Id be happy to give him time if he showed he actually had a plan he was executing towards, but it doenst yet exist.

As wonderfully entertaining as DOGE has been, I'm more interested in what the savings will be than the circus surrounding it.
What is the current savings count? Is it trillions, billions millions, or nothing?













I think that he should have had a plan before he levied the tax like he claimed he did.

The fact is he'd didnt have a plan then, and he probably doenst have one now, and if he does we haven't yet seen it.

Uh, yeah. So tell me again who has been handling the money that was recieved from those tariff's from his first term in office. And while you are at it, tell me again how many allies he had working to progress his intentions.

I get it dude, you really don't like tariff's because you haven't personally seen the results you want to see.

 

[Smitty7]

You believe he needs time. Im saying he's already had a lot of it and has failed to deliver either results or even framework for success.

If not accepting excuses makes me biased then so be it.

Maybe he shouldn't have taken our money without the ability to execute?

He taxed us then with a promised outcome - then he taxed us again even more.

He didn't deliver then, and he's not showing us how he will deliver now.

I expect more than you guys do.

Id be happy to give him time if he showed he actually had a plan he was executing towards, but it doenst yet exist.

As wonderfully entertaining as DOGE has been, I'm more interested in what the savings will be than the circus surrounding it.
What is the current savings count? Is it trillions, billions millions, or nothing?













I think that he should have had a plan before he levied the tax like he claimed he did.

The fact is he'd didnt have a plan then, and he probably doenst have one now, and if he does we haven't yet seen it.

Well so be it then . You're going broke and we can't get no brake parts . Plan accordingly . I've had bigger problems .

 

[Uncle Dave]

Except, though isn't that kind of an important thing? Even if you are being ironic - sarcastic, ...

I mean, I can't tell you how many complaints here at RDP expressed that exact sentiment, and rightly so.
To that end, the inability to manufacture the implements of competition/war is a serious or grave national security issue.

I think you are right that the absence of a plan is a real big problem - and a giant void in leadership - and that the means are obscuring the ends, and that the messaging is haphazard and impossible to make business plans aligned with, which as many businesspeople here know is a giant f-ing problem.

I wish the MAGA team would clarify things for us lowlife citizens so we can plan, otherwise it just looks like chaos for the sake chaos.

Actually bringing back the manufacturing would put him on par with the greats.

I'm pissed that he hasn't delivered and seemingly has no plan other than than to tax us.

Without results Trumps is just another democrat with a red tie, and that really pisses me off.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Uh, yeah. So tell me again who has been handling the money that was recieved from those tariff's from his first term in office. And while you are at it, tell me again how many allies he had working to progress his intentions.

I get it dude, you really don't like tariff's because you haven't personally seen the results you want to see.

He handled it for the first three years , then Biden, and now him again.

Allies are the ones you make or keep. Thats on him too as it is on every president.

The country hasn't seen the results, the industry isnt coming back. This is way bigger than me.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Well so be it then . You're going broke and we can't get no brake parts . Plan accordingly . I've had bigger problems .

I'm not the brake pad guy.

Im the guy with 200 people making shit here.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

@Skinny Tire AH

After noodling on this I have a question.

Had Gates and other suppliers continued to solely produce in the United States and never moved to lower cost places, is it your contention that those companies would to this day have the exact same margins, market share and competitive position? That they did in fact never have to leave.

That any company that moved manufacturing did not have to do it. The lower cost competition would have made no inroads on their business model as the competition came from offshore?


I have no idea. All I know is that my experience, the data and other companies experience remains the same.

I agree that there are a lot of people in those other jobs, but it would appear that they may bitch about their station in life, but they are not willing to do the tough work to move into manufacturing/physical jobs?

Your point is valid about the pool, but absent labor camps, I am not sure how to indenture them into jobs they simply will not freely do now despite all the openings.

I think that there would have been 2 things happen.

China would not have been trained, by us, to make high quality products. Being completly honest, they would have eventually figured it out. The proprietary blends or rubbers and processes could be sorted.

All we wanted, as distributors, was for our market partners to share in the additional margins they received from offshoring. Their greed has us where we are today, they created their own doom.

In addition, had trade barriers been installed in the beginning, we might be having a different conversation today. China corporations are assisted in dumping product, it cannot be argued. The industrial V-belt industry, which we also dabbled in, was exactly the same.

 

[Smitty7]

I'm not the brake pad guy.

Im the guy with 200 people making shit here.

I know you're all up in arms . I know the other guy sells brake parts . I'm just trying to razz you guys and get a laugh . Jeez , is that plain enough ? You don't know whats gonna happen and neither do I so sit back and see what happens . Hold your cards until the last one is dealt . then you will know .

 

[was thatguy]

I know you're all up in arms . I know the other guy sells brake parts . I'm just trying to razz you guys and get a laugh . Jeez , is that plain enough ? You don't know whats gonna happen and neither do I so sit back and see what happens . Hold your cards until the last one is dealt . then you will know .

SILENCE!!!
ORANGE MAN BAD!!!

 

[530RL]

Uh, yeah. So tell me again who has been handling the money that was recieved from those tariff's from his first term in office. And while you are at it, tell me again how many allies he had working to progress his intentions.

I get it dude, you really don't like tariff's because you haven't personally seen the results you want to see.

The money that was attained from tariffs in his first term, were then primarily paid out as subsidies to farmers and others who were crushed by those same tariffs.

It remains true, there is no free lunch. The government is just picking winners and losers, as opposed to letting competition do so.

https://www.piie.com/blogs/trade-and-investment-policy-watch/2018/first-tariffs-then-subsidies-soybeans-illustrate

Now you want the government to do all your business planning for you. Isn't it you that's always screaming less government ? You are so full of shit it ain't funny. Let me guess . We need those immgrants here for those jobs right ?

No, I want the government out of private enterprise and for them to stop picking winners and losers, let alone front running investment markets with non-public material information about this administration's constant course corrections.

However, if they are going to do so as you and others in here support, at least have a solid logical plan to go along with the centralized economic planning that many in here wish to see.

I think that there would have been 2 things happen.

China would not have been trained, by us, to make high quality products. Being completly honest, they would have eventually figured it out. The proprietary blends or rubbers and processes could be sorted.

All we wanted, as distributors, was for our market partners to share in the additional margins they received from offshoring. Their greed has us where we are today, they created their own doom.

In addition, had trade barriers been installed in the beginning, we might be having a different conversation today. China corporations are assisted in dumping product, it cannot be argued. The industrial V-belt industry, which we also dabbled in, was exactly the same.

Sounds like you are admitting that if US companies did not go and source or build plants in lower cost geographies, those companies would have "eventually" lost market share and margin.

You are certainly entitled to label them as greedy, or to your point didn't share with their distributors as you would have liked to see. But what I don't think anyone can argue rationally is that if they just sat still and remained manufacturing here as they always had done in the past, they would have still have the same margins and market share.

They had to move that production sooner or later, or they would have simply failed. They had no choice.

 

[was thatguy]

.

I expect more than you guys do.

Why?


That explains a a lot, actually.

 

[was thatguy]

The money that was attained from tariffs in his first term, were then primarily paid out as subsidies to farmers and others who were crushed by those same tariffs.

It remains true, there is no free lunch. The government is just picking winners and losers, as opposed to letting competition do so.

https://www.piie.com/blogs/trade-and-investment-policy-watch/2018/first-tariffs-then-subsidies-soybeans-illustrate

No, I want the government out of private enterprise and for them to stop picking winners and losers, let alone front running investment markets with non-public material information about this administration's constant course corrections.

However, if they are going to do so as you and others in here support, at least have a solid logical plan to go along with the centralized economic planning that many in here wish to see.


Sounds like you are admitting that if US companies did not go and source or build plants in lower cost geographies, those companies would have "eventually" lost market share and margin.

You are certainly entitled to label them as greedy, or to your point didn't share with their distributors as you would have liked to see. But what I don't think anyone can argue rationally is that if they just sat still and remained manufacturing here as they always had done in the past, they would have still have the same margins and market share.

They had to move that production sooner or later, or they would have simply failed. They had no choice.

I’m impressed.
Pretzeling 3 arguments at once!
That’s some dedication right there!
Kudos!

 

[regor]

You believe he needs time. Im saying he's already had a lot of it and has failed to deliver either results or even framework for success.

If not accepting excuses makes me biased then so be it.

Maybe he shouldn't have taken our money without the ability to execute?

He taxed us then with a promised outcome - then he taxed us again even more.

He didn't deliver then, and he's not showing us how he will deliver now.

I expect more than you guys do.

Id be happy to give him time if he showed he actually had a plan he was executing towards, but it doenst yet exist.

As wonderfully entertaining as DOGE has been, I'm more interested in what the savings will be than the circus surrounding it.
What is the current savings count? Is it trillions, billions millions, or nothing?

The plan is breaking Chyyyyyna by developing new trade alliances and moving supply chains out of the dog eater’s country. There have been results.

It’s a long game UD and unfortunately one that Chyna has the upper hand on…….

 

[530RL]

The plan is breaking Chyyyyyna by developing new trade alliances and moving supply chains out of the dog eater’s country. There have been results.

It’s a long game UD and unfortunately one that Chyna has the upper hand on…….

But the actions were to tariff all our trade alliances driving all of them away and into China? They even tariffed countries where we have a trade surplus.

How is that creating trade alliances. Wouldn’t punishing good trade partners, partners that buy more from us than we sell to them, diminishing all trade alliances?

For a thousand years China, Japan and Korea have been fighting, yet these policies brought them together instantly.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I know you're all up in arms . I know the other guy sells brake parts . I'm just trying to razz you guys and get a laugh . Jeez , is that plain enough ? You don't know whats gonna happen and neither do I so sit back and see what happens . Hold your cards until the last one is dealt . then you will know .

Hardly up in arms. Just discussion current events.

I've never been a guy that sits back and waits for things happen, I go make them happen.

When the guy with the blue tie taxes you without delivering how much time do you give him to make good on it?

 

[t&y]

But the actions were to tariff all our trade alliances driving all of them away and into China? They even tariffed countries where we have a trade surplus.

How is that creating trade alliances. Wouldn’t punishing good trade partners, partners that buy more from us than we sell to them, diminishing all trade alliances?

For a thousand years China, Japan and Korea have been fighting, yet these policies brought them together instantly.

Shit... Are we back to the world ending again?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Why?


That explains a a lot, actually.

How much time do you give a guy to keep his word?

Seems like if his tie is red you don't care and will accept any lame excuse for non performance.

I hold all these guys feet to same fire regardless of tie color.


My disdain is non partisan.

 

[t&y]

Hardly up in arms. Just discussion current events.

I've never been a guy that sits back and waits for things happen, I go make them happen.

When the guy with the blue tie taxes you without delivering how much time do you give him to make good on it?

If you truly just make it happen then what is the problem. I'm not dissing you here, seriously. Just adapt and go make it happen.