Can someone explain E85 and Biodiesel?

[GRADS2009]

The gas station next to my house just installed new pumps that pump E85 and Biodiesel fuel. What type of gas is it and what is it used in? Can I run biodiesel in my Ford Super Duty? Is it cheaper or more expensive than regular fuel?

 

[Riverbound]

If your vehicles are compatible with the fuels you can run them.

 

[OCMerrill]

If your vehicles are compatible with the fuels you can run them.

Yep.

Whatever you do DON'T run E-85 in a gas engine not designed for it. The alcohol will swell orings in the fuel system and you will have problems.

Biodiesel - Depends on the truck. Like Riverbound said...make sure you can run it or find out what percentage you can run.

 

[GRADS2009]

If your vehicles are compatible with the fuels you can run them.

Thanks, that explains everything.:headscratch:

 

[soupersonic]

Your manual or the dealer should be able to tell you what percentage of biodiesel you can run in your truck, should be anywhere from a 5 to 20 % mixture.

 

[pronstar]

What kind of truck?
The 2002 - 2007 Dodge 5.9L Cummins is rated to use biodiesel up to B20.

For Immediate Release
March 21, 2007

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (March 20, 2007) - Cummins Inc. (NYSE: CMI) today announced the approval of biodiesel B20 blends for use in its 2002 and later emissions-compliant ISX, ISM, ISL, ISC and ISB engines. This includes the recently released 2007 products.

Cummins is able to upgrade its previous position on the use of biodiesel fuel, which limited the use to B5 blends only, up to B20 for three key reasons. First, the American Society of Testing Materials specification ASTM D6751 now includes an important stability specification for B100 biodiesel. Second, the availability of quality fuels from BQ-9000 Certified Marketers and Accredited Producers is growing rapidly; and third, Cummins has completed the necessary testing and evaluations to ensure that customers can reliably operate their equipment with confidence using B20 fuel.

'We have completed exhaustive analysis and test evaluations which enable Cummins to provide the necessary guidance and information to our customers for the proper and successful use of this fuel in our engine,' said Edward Lyford-Pike, Chief Engineer - Advanced Alternative Fuel Programs. 'This will enable our customers to have a choice that includes renewable fuel.'

The popularity and use of biodiesel fuel continues to climb. Recent studies predict that, by 2008, 1.2 billion gallons of B100 biodiesel will be produced in the United States. Cummins will continue its efforts to ensure that future products will be compatible with biodiesel fuels, and will continue to participate in industry efforts aimed at the development of consistent quality throughout the biodiesel industry.

Further information about the use of biodiesel for both on-highway and off-highway Cummins products can be found on the Web at everytime.cummins.com.

Cummins Inc., a global power leader, is a corporation of complementary business units that design, manufacture, distribute and service engines and related technologies, including fuel systems, controls, air handling, filtration, emission solutions and electrical power generation systems. Headquartered in Columbus, Indiana (USA), Cummins serves customers in more than 160 countries through its network of 550 company-owned and independent distributor facilities and more than 5,000 dealer locations. Cummins reported net income of $715 million on sales of $11.4 billion in 2006. Press releases can be found on the Web at cummins.com or everytime.cummins.com.

 

[linus3]

I fill my E85 Tahoe at Terribles in Parker. On average about 40 to 60 cents cheaper then regular unleaded. About a $15.00 savings a tank. The only diff. Ive seen is on reg. I can get to Parker on about 3/4 tank. E85, Im on fumes getting home. I never did the math but Im sure its close to breaking even.

 

[Racey]

E-85 is 85% Ethanol, 15% gasoline. Ethanol is an alcohol, similar to methanol, however it is most commonly made from the fermentation of corn, not extracted from crude. You will get worse mileage on e-85 compared to gasoline.

B20 biodiesel is 20% vegatable based oil and 80% regular diesel fuel... i don't know what kind of mileage difference there is between normal #2 diesel and B20 biodiesel.

Like someone said, don't run E-85 unless your car is a flex fuel vehicle. As for the B20, i believe it's formulated to work in any diesel engine.

 

[BoatCop]

Yep.

Whatever you do DON'T run E-85 in a gas engine not designed for it. The alcohol will swell orings in the fuel system and you will have problems.

There is some argument to whether E85 harms non-flex fuel engines. Here's one test:

YouTube- ‪E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines‬‎

This site has a conversion tool to determine if the price difference between E-85 and gasoline is worth the loss of MPG.

http://e85prices.com/

I ran E85 in my 2007 Flex-fuel Tahoe several years ago when I found it at a Rebel Station in Vegas. I noticed a 3 MPG loss, from 19 MPG down to 16 MPG. This was on a mainly downhill run from Vegas to Parker. I figured that the E85 has to be about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than gas to make it worthwhile. That figure is just about the same as the estimated 15% MPG loss you'd find with E85.

I haven't found anywhere yet (where I usually drive) with that much of a spread, so I haven't tried it yet in my 2009 Tahoe with the newer XFE engine.

I've considered running about 1/2 tank of E-85 in my MH (Ford V10 )and see if it would alleviate a nuisance MAP sensor code. Something about a wire sensor that needs cleaning, and they recommed cleaning it with alcohol. But I'm waiting for more data before taking that step.

 

[Riverbound]

I know the cummins motors will pretty much burn anything. I have ran motor oil, ATF, power steering fluid, Waste motor oil, gear oil, 2 stroke oil veggie oil, etc.. through mine. in fact the majority of the time mine runs better with other oils in there as it adds lubrication back in that the ULSD has lost. Havent found any Bio-diesel stations yet so havent ran it to see the MPG increases or loss but if it ran the same as everyhting else and was cheaper then ULSD I would run it through mine.

 

[ap67et10]

There is some argument to whether E85 harms non-flex fuel engines. Here's one test:

YouTube- ‪E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines‬‎

This site has a conversion tool to determine if the price difference between E-85 and gasoline is worth the loss of MPG.

http://e85prices.com/

I ran E85 in my 2007 Flex-fuel Tahoe several years ago when I found it at a Rebel Station in Vegas. I noticed a 3 MPG loss, from 19 MPG down to 16 MPG. This was on a mainly downhill run from Vegas to Parker. I figured that the E85 has to be about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than gas to make it worthwhile. That figure is just about the same as the estimated 15% MPG loss you'd find with E85.

I haven't found anywhere yet (where I usually drive) with that much of a spread, so I haven't tried it yet in my 2009 Tahoe with the newer XFE engine.

I've considered running about 1/2 tank of E-85 in my MH (Ford V10 )and see if it would alleviate a nuisance MAP sensor code. Something about a wire sensor that needs cleaning, and they recommed cleaning it with alcohol. But I'm waiting for more data before taking that step.

for a stock vehicle, at this time, it is hard to justify using e85 as it typically ends up being less efficient when considering cost per mile. However if you have anything with added power that needs higher octane, E85 is hands down the best option. there are many misunderstandings when it comes to E85, deterioration is one of them. ethanol is not corrosive like methanol is.

Andrew

 

[69 1/2]

My business makes the piston skirt coating for the big three american auto makers. GM is having fits with the E-85 and cylinder wear due to cylinder washing with the alcohol. The injectors deliver on average 20% more fuel to the cylinder and it is enough to wash the cylinder way too clean of oil. GM engineers are not overly concerned at this point because of the very limited availability of the E-85 fuels and problems are showing up after the warranty period. We are working on the next generation of piston coatings that will be more compatible and lubricate better under hard acceleration/rich conditions. Ford and Chrysler completely have their heads in the sand over the issue. The cure is coating more than just a small patch on the piston skirt and ceramic coated cylinder liners, way too expensive right now for production engines. I pay the extra $ for standard unleaded.

 

[Dan Lorenze]

I fill my E85 Tahoe at Terribles in Parker. On average about 40 to 60 cents cheaper then regular unleaded. About a $15.00 savings a tank. The only diff. Ive seen is on reg. I can get to Parker on about 3/4 tank. E85, Im on fumes getting home. I never did the math but Im sure its close to breaking even.

I have expierenced the same thing. I think it comes out about even. e85 is American made so I buy it as much as I can. The only place that sells it in LA is a place called "Conservefuel" in Brentwood off of San Vicente.

 

[Racey]

There is some argument to whether E85 harms non-flex fuel engines. Here's one test:

YouTube- ‪E85 Ethanol Does not harm Non-FlexFueled Engines‬‎

This site has a conversion tool to determine if the price difference between E-85 and gasoline is worth the loss of MPG.

http://e85prices.com/

I ran E85 in my 2007 Flex-fuel Tahoe several years ago when I found it at a Rebel Station in Vegas. I noticed a 3 MPG loss, from 19 MPG down to 16 MPG. This was on a mainly downhill run from Vegas to Parker. I figured that the E85 has to be about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than gas to make it worthwhile. That figure is just about the same as the estimated 15% MPG loss you'd find with E85.

I haven't found anywhere yet (where I usually drive) with that much of a spread, so I haven't tried it yet in my 2009 Tahoe with the newer XFE engine.

I've considered running about 1/2 tank of E-85 in my MH (Ford V10 )and see if it would alleviate a nuisance MAP sensor code. Something about a wire sensor that needs cleaning, and they recommed cleaning it with alcohol. But I'm waiting for more data before taking that step.

You should be very careful running a non-flex vehicle on e-85, the fuel injection on e-85 cars is designed to detect the change in fuel and adjust accordingly (by adding more injector pulse when on e-85) the fuel injection on a non flex vehicle doesn't have this 'dual map' capability, meaning when you put e-85 in, it doesn't know, and continues operating the same fuel flow as if you were running gasoline, you will be running lean if you put a good load on the motor, Lean + Load = Detonation.... that would be my take on the situation.

Not to go all political on the thread, but i'll keep it small. Understand that E85 is a huge scam pulled off by corn industry and the government being in cahootz with each other, The fuel is heavily subsidized from plant to pump, aka your tax dollars pay for it, they pay the farming corporations extra money to grow corn over other crops, they pay companies to process the corn into fuel, and they give incentives and credits to stations that dispense the fuel. Not to mention the car companies get big time tax breaks, subsidies, and other incentives for producing vehicles capable of using ethanol, aka being green. In reality, however, ethanol is not green, between the machinery to grow and harvest, fertilizers and pesticides, the transportation, and the insane amount of energy needed to convert corn into ethanol, and then trucking the fuel long distance (ethanol is too corrosive to be run through underground pipes across the country like gas and diesel are), ethanol actually creates more greenhouse gas and pollution than standard gasoline does over it's life.

 

[OCMerrill]

You should be very careful running a non-flex vehicle on e-85, the fuel injection on e-85 cars is designed to detect the change in fuel and adjust accordingly (by adding more injector pulse when on e-85) the fuel injection on a non flex vehicle doesn't have this 'dual map' capability, meaning when you put e-85 in, it doesn't know, and continues operating the same fuel flow as if you were running gasoline, you will be running lean if you put a good load on the motor, Lean + Load = Detonation.... that would be my take on the situation.

I used to run my CR500 in Glamis on Alcohol. The Main Jetting changes consisted from about a .025 hole size on the main Jet to an 1/8" drill bit and there was no way to enlarge the pilot jet large enough to allow the motor to idle. So we never stopped.

And it's so corrosive enabling, that we had to take it out every night and run fuel through there so the crank bearings would not rust.

Why did we do all this? Because one guy started to and the rest of us played keep up. Stupid. My last motor had 14-1 compression. You had to be very careful starting it.

Up to the top of Olds with a 240# rider in about 5 seconds.

Ride from Gecko to Olds, run the hill 1/2 doz times, and back = 2 gallons. Range was exactly 1/2 of stock.

 

[Gelcoater]

I used to run my CR500 in Glamis on Alcohol. The Main Jetting changes consisted from about a .025 hole size on the main Jet to an 1/8" drill bit and there was no way to enlarge the pilot jet large enough to allow the motor to idle. So we never stopped.

And it's so corrosive enabling, that we had to take it out every night and run fuel through there so the crank bearings would not rust.

Why did we do all this? Because one guy started to and the rest of us played keep up. Stupid. My last motor had 14-1 compression. You had to be very careful starting it.

Up to the top of Olds with a 240# rider in about 5 seconds.

Ride from Gecko to Olds, run the hill 1/2 doz times, and back = 2 gallons. Range was exactly 1/2 of stock.

shit i bet that was a fast ride.years ago,while sitting under the shade outside the glamis store these 2 guys ride up on CR500s lengthened swing arms and a bottle mounted on an angle across the front plate.neither of them would idle either:hmm never got to watch them run the hill,but i bet that was a fun ride as well was that you?

 

[PVHCA]

Ran E-85 ONE time in my 08 LTZ, never again, wouldn't give 2 shits if I saved a buck a gallon, truck ran like shit and the gas mileage was terrible. My truck is desinged to run E-85 and has the 4-8 option but it didn't like the E-85.

 

[OCMerrill]

shit i bet that was a fast ride.years ago,while sitting under the shade outside the glamis store these 2 guys ride up on CR500s lengthened swing arms and a bottle mounted on an angle across the front plate.neither of them would idle either:hmm never got to watch them run the hill,but i bet that was a fun ride as well was that you?

My buddy Nate had NOS strapped to the number plate but it did not work so well. I had a 6" extended swingarm and a 12 paddle. You still had to sit the tank even at my weight back then. A chain and sprockets would last 2 trips max...LOL.

This is about the only way to actually grenade a lower on Honda's most bullet proof motor. NOS.

I sold that and built a 370 Long rod Banshee and proceeded to try and kill myself that way.

 

[DaveH]

You should be very careful running a non-flex vehicle on e-85, the fuel injection on e-85 cars is designed to detect the change in fuel and adjust accordingly (by adding more injector pulse when on e-85) the fuel injection on a non flex vehicle doesn't have this 'dual map' capability, meaning when you put e-85 in, it doesn't know, and continues operating the same fuel flow as if you were running gasoline, you will be running lean if you put a good load on the motor, Lean + Load = Detonation.... that would be my take on the situation.

Not to go all political on the thread, but i'll keep it small. Understand that E85 is a huge scam pulled off by corn industry and the government being in cahootz with each other, The fuel is heavily subsidized from plant to pump, aka your tax dollars pay for it, they pay the farming corporations extra money to grow corn over other crops, they pay companies to process the corn into fuel, and they give incentives and credits to stations that dispense the fuel. Not to mention the car companies get big time tax breaks, subsidies, and other incentives for producing vehicles capable of using ethanol, aka being green. In reality, however, ethanol is not green, between the machinery to grow and harvest, fertilizers and pesticides, the transportation, and the insane amount of energy needed to convert corn into ethanol, and then trucking the fuel long distance (ethanol is too corrosive to be run through underground pipes across the country like gas and diesel are), ethanol actually creates more greenhouse gas and pollution than standard gasoline does over it's life.
__________________

:thumbsup x2

green political BS is what it is.

the big advantage to any alcohol based fuel assumes you have an engine designed around the use of it. primarily a very high dynamic compression ratio or supercharged engine. even then, as has already been pointed out, fuel consumption is higher becasue of the low BTU alcohol.

 

[ap67et10]

there are couple things that are misunderstood i think.

1. ethanol that is in fuel, is the same ethanol that you would drink, just denatured. It is not anywhere close to as corrosive as methanol, however it is slightly acidic, because it is still an "alcohol"

2. flex fuel vehicles are NOT efficient, because of the compression ratio and engine design has to be low to run on reg. gas also. However a dedicated flex fuel vehicle is more efficient as the engine is designed to run with higher octane fuel. typically they find more efficiency out of a flex fueled engine than it counterpart gasoline engine.

3. even corn ethanol is as, if not more efficient and less impacting than gasoline in reference to green house gas, negative environmental impact and total energy used. From what I understand most of this efficiency is from improved practices, and also mass volume production increasing. which was not the case in past years, however is quickly become the case now.

4. The biggest positive outlook with ethanol is Cellulosic Ethanol, which is basically ethanol produced from biomass. its very clean from beginning to end, most estimates are a reduction from 85-95% from gas and corn ethanol.
Cellulosic ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/Fileg166_bioreactor.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Pg166_bioreactor.jpg/220px-Pg166_bioreactor.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/c7/Pg166_bioreactor.jpg/220px-Pg166_bioreactor.jpg

E85 is a positive on every front that i see. It is completely engulfed in political fire, which is never good, as our gov. can't seem to get anything right....however without the subsidies and/or regulation, industries would not change. it would be extremely difficult to complete with oil companies and change the way America fuels their vehicles when up against billions and billions of dollars from the oil companies protecting their industry and determined to shut anyone down that may compromise it. So in a case like this, of course subsidies and regulation have to happen....is it right?? is it wrong??....it is what it is. However, for us, i see it being a great option for high performance applications, while also reducing our reliance on foreign oil (which in my opinion is the biggest positive aspect of ethanol) and lowering "green house gasses". the more i learn about e85 the more i like it.

Andrew

 

[old man on the lake]

If we put as much energy in to exploration,drilling and infrastructure for petroleum as we do ethanol we would be totally self sufficient.Of course the opec guys would lower the price until the feasibility of domestic drilling went away. Saudi oil $3 a barrel ,domestic $30
With cheap oil the economy would go crazy,and we can't have that.
Yes we do have plenty of oil to last forever.

 

[DaveH]

since this is turning into a political thread, I will put my .02 in.

E85 is a positive on every front that i see. It is completely engulfed in political fire, which is never good, as our gov. can't seem to get anything right....however without the subsidies and/or regulation, industries would not change. it would be extremely difficult to complete with oil companies and change the way America fuels their vehicles when up against billions and billions of dollars from the oil companies protecting their industry and determined to shut anyone down that may compromise it. So in a case like this, of course subsidies and regulation have to happen....is it right?? is it wrong??....it is what it is. However, for us, i see it being a great option for high performance applications, while also reducing our reliance on foreign oil (which in my opinion is the biggest positive aspect of ethanol) and lowering "green house gasses". the more i learn about e85 the more i like it.

I dont buy this argument at all, that industry/companies "wont change" with out govt regulation and/or intervention. Nor do i accept the premise of big oil "shutting anyone down".

If the above was the case, you would never see any progress in any industry. Look at how far technology and modern life has come in just the last 30-40 years. Fields like medicine, aviation, communications, and so on. I submit that some of the progress could have come about sooner/faster, but BECAUSE of govt regulation happened slower.

The simple fact is, for an internal combustion engine, there simply isnt a more efficient solution today than oil. its a free market. if you can invent a fuel/energy source that is more efficient, cheaper, easier to get, than you would simply be the next mogul of a new industry. Big oil has huge sums of $$ to hire the best minds in the world to work on solutions. when they figure it out, we will have it.

 

[Tom Brown]

Can someone explain E85 and Biodiesel?

I'll try.

Thanks, that explains everything.:headscratch:

Ethanol production:

Ethylene is hydrated in grain stock or yeast can feed on the organic sugars in a fermentation based process.

E85, specifically, is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

Biodiesel production:

Alcohol is reacted with vegetable oil or animal fat to create a directly usable fuel.

A key difference between waste vegetable oil (WVO) and other waste oils, and biodiesel, is that biodiesel is designed to be burned directly in a diesel engine. WVO and waste oils can be blended with regular diesel or run directly in a modified diesel engine.

 

[ap67et10]

since this is turning into a political thread, I will put my .02 in.



I dont buy this argument at all, that industry/companies "wont change" with out govt regulation and/or intervention. Nor do i accept the premise of big oil "shutting anyone down".

If the above was the case, you would never see any progress in any industry. Look at how far technology and modern life has come in just the last 30-40 years. Fields like medicine, aviation, communications, and so on. I submit that some of the progress could have come about sooner/faster, but BECAUSE of govt regulation happened slower.

The simple fact is, for an internal combustion engine, there simply isnt a more efficient solution today than oil. its a free market. if you can invent a fuel/energy source that is more efficient, cheaper, easier to get, than you would simply be the next mogul of a new industry. Big oil has huge sums of $$ to hire the best minds in the world to work on solutions. when they figure it out, we will have it.

this mentality doesn't work in most industries because most industries don't have potential monopolies and companies large enough to absorb anyone trying to chip away at their market. just look at the rockefeller story, it is exactly what i described, before gov. regulation. I'm NOT for big government, but I'm also very much against monopolies, both are devastating to free market, because in both cases, the market becomes heavily manipulated.

you can see this on a small scale all the time, when you have 1 mom and pop gas station on a lone corner, and a shell gets tossed into the other side. mom and pop will be gone before you know it, because shell can absorb losses from discounting away all their business. It happens all the time, and when dealing with companies as large and powerful as the oil companies....nobody stands a chance...no matter how good their idea.

the auto industry is the biggest example of gov. regulation bringing change. for years and years we ran carbs, and although many did experiment with various types of fuel injection and efficient engine management. the amount of dollars spent in R&D is microscopic compared to today. Companies would much rather put money in the bank than have to pour money (they don't have) into constantly figuring out the next way to be more efficient and clean. gov. regulation on emissions has changed Americas mentality and values when it comes to automobiles. nobody could give a crap about what comes out the tailpipe in the 80's...now its cool to hate cars that aren't "green" (its amazing what propaganda can do). Again....I'm not saying its right or that i agree with it...I'm just saying this is how it is.

today is probably the best example of oil companies investing in the next thing. however this also has come about because of the public mentality change that has been brought about by regulation. oil companies are HATED...they have to do anything they can to be the good guys, alternative energy is a good place to start.

I completely agree with you that gov. has cause so many slow downs of some developments....but thats with everything. people and gov. always have intrests, they always have an agenda. its nuts the kind of crap going on in our gov. when it comes to certain intresets. I don't think its right, but it is the way it is...at least for now.

Andrew

 

[Dan Lorenze]

Ran E-85 ONE time in my 08 LTZ, never again, wouldn't give 2 shits if I saved a buck a gallon, truck ran like shit and the gas mileage was terrible. My truck is desinged to run E-85 and has the 4-8 option but it didn't like the E-85.

Crazy, my 07 LTZ runs great on the stuff..

 

[SBjet]

[/I]

Understand that E85 is a huge scam pulled off by corn industry and the government being in cahootz with each other, The fuel is heavily subsidized and the insane amount of energy needed to convert corn into ethanol, and then trucking the fuel long distance (ethanol is too corrosive to be run through underground pipes across the country like gas and diesel are), ethanol actually creates more greenhouse gas and pollution than standard gasoline does over it's life.[/SIZE]

This is absolutely correct. We have discussed it in the PRF for anyone who wants to look.
The worst part is that Prez candidates go to Iowa every 4 yrs. and genuflect to ethanol.

4. The biggest positive outlook with ethanol is Cellulosic Ethanol, which is basically ethanol produced from biomass. its very clean from beginning to end, most estimates are a reduction from 85-95% from gas and corn ethanol.
Cellulosic ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fine by me, but the corn dealio is fake.

E85 is a positive on every front that i see. It is completely engulfed in political fire, a great option for high performance applications, while also reducing our reliance on foreign oil (which in my opinion is the biggest positive aspect of ethanol) and lowering "green house gasses". the more i learn about e85 the more i like it.

Andrew

You made a thoughtful post, which I appreciate, so I'm trying to be gentle, (subsidized ) ethanol from corn is all wrong. It takes more than a gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol from corn. Ethanol might be fine if gas was $10/gal. But you'll never know for real until all the subsidies are pulled. And it appears to work ok for Brazil, though there are drawbacks there too.
And you're right it's great for performance apps.
Good answer T. Brown.

 

[DaveH]

this mentality doesn't work in most industries because most industries don't have potential monopolies and companies large enough to absorb anyone trying to chip away at their market. just look at the rockefeller story, it is exactly what i described, before gov. regulation. I'm NOT for big government, but I'm also very much against monopolies, both are devastating to free market, because in both cases, the market becomes heavily manipulated.

industry CAN NOT create a monopoly. only the GOVT can do that by regulation.

true, industry can try and squish smaller competitors, but ultimately it is the consumer who makes the decision to shop at walmart or a small mom/pop operation.

look at the industry you are in. Is govt an obstacle or an assett? I am not saying there is no place for govt, its just way out of hand in its current form.

you can see this on a small scale all the time, when you have 1 mom and pop gas station on a lone corner, and a shell gets tossed into the other side. mom and pop will be gone before you know it, because shell can absorb losses from discounting away all their business. It happens all the time, and when dealing with companies as large and powerful as the oil companies....nobody stands a chance...no matter how good their idea.

i totally disagree. a good innovative idea that is ahead of your competitors, can come out ahead. sure, there are visionaries with great ideas that are poor buisness people or for other reason the business fails. but that doesnt mean it was simply becasue it got squashed by big companies. I bet there are plenty of small business operators here on this site that are doing JUST FINE, make a nice living, and somehow they are making it in the face of mega-companies. pumping gas and selling red-bulls is hardly a new idea, the small stations should go under. i wonder how parker oil servives?

I completely agree with you that gov. has cause so many slow downs of some developments....but thats with everything. people and gov. always have intrests, they always have an agenda. its nuts the kind of crap going on in our gov. when it comes to certain intresets. I don't think its right, but it is the way it is...at least for now.

the sad reality.

 

[pronstar]

And it appears to work ok for Brazil, though there are drawbacks there too.

Ethanol works geat for Brazil for two main reasons:
1) they derive it from sugar cane, which has a higher yield than corn
2) their energy consumption is obviously less per capita than the US

Brazil still uses and produces petroleum, they're just independent as far as getting it from other countries.

Most of the so-called magic bullets for US energy are scams...they use more energy than they yield. And most use massive amounts of petroluem-derived energy and base stocks.

 

[ap67et10]

industry CAN NOT create a monopoly. only the GOVT can do that by regulation.

true, industry can try and squish smaller competitors, but ultimately it is the consumer who makes the decision to shop at walmart or a small mom/pop operation.

look at the industry you are in. Is govt an obstacle or an assett? I am not saying there is no place for govt, its just way out of hand in its current form.

this is totally true! The gov. has now become such a burden on the auto industry, its crippled American auto makers specifically. I totally agree, but this is the same in the opposite manner also. Gov. intervention on behalf of the general workforce that was massively being abused in the early 1900's was the right thing. Problem is the gov. and unions now have more power than ever....what gov. official would want to give it up?? its all about corruption, and I honestly think we are in the same boat on views. I'm just stating that it can go the opposite direction also, and the best example is definitely standard oil in the late 1800's. it was a total monopoly and devastated everyone in the industry trying to compete. it was corruption and manipulation which only occurred because of the massive power and wealth that was gained. gov was the only thing that stopped it. however now is completely different story, everything is too big....government being top, banks, oil companies...its scary the kind of power these people and organizations have.

i totally disagree. a good innovative idea that is ahead of your competitors, can come out ahead. sure, there are visionaries with great ideas that are poor buisness people or for other reason the business fails. but that doesnt mean it was simply becasue it got squashed by big companies. I bet there are plenty of small business operators here on this site that are doing JUST FINE, make a nice living, and somehow they are making it in the face of mega-companies. pumping gas and selling red-bulls is hardly a new idea, the small stations should go under. i wonder how parker oil servives?

believe me, I want to believe that! We will really see in the next 10yrs how true this is. We live in such a brain dead society now, its hard to believe anyone can figure out anything on their own without someone telling them what to believe or think. My generation (i'm quite a bit younger than most people here) seems to be the least likely to ever take a chance. they just want to work the gov. do what their told and collect a paycheck. But lets hope you are right!


I too first want less gov. spending and gov. downsizing...its too big, too powerful, and too corrupt. worst part is there are no consequences for being stupid, no going bankrupt (so they think) no getting fired, just spend spend spend. sad, and i hope something changes...soon


Andrew

 

[ap67et10]

[/I]

You made a thoughtful post, which I appreciate, so I'm trying to be gentle, (subsidized ) ethanol from corn is all wrong. It takes more than a gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol from corn. Ethanol might be fine if gas was $10/gal. But you'll never know for real until all the subsidies are pulled. And it appears to work ok for Brazil, though there are drawbacks there too.
And you're right it's great for performance apps.
Good answer T. Brown.

I have read quite a few studies on ethanol, its production, positives, negatives and how it compares to other fuels, and have found that most believe this is not the case. I have no reason to side with one belief or the other, just simply what I can take from these studies by how the information is presented and what points are made. I would like to read the information you have, and what makes you say this is true. One of the articles i have found to be the most convincing for me is this one. http://www.cleanfuelsdc.org/pubs/documents/EnergyBalanceIssueBriefMarch09.pdf

its a good read and makes some very good points. please post your info, so i can read it, and see what it has to say. I am posting up my opinions on ethanol and the industry, but I am not blindly stating what I "think". I have read a lot, and compiled what i believe to be true from what i have read. No doubt though, as has already been stated....everyone has intrests, and just about every article has someones agenda behind it. so reading many things from many sources is the best way to try and understand the truth.

Andrew

also, it doesn't make sense that ethanol would be good option if gas was 10/gal. it should be that ethanol makes even less sense as gas prices rise, if it is in fact true that it takes "more than a gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol from corn." or am i missing something??

 

[Yellowboat]

The simple fact that alky must be trucked and not piped, means its going to be worse for the enviroment.

 

[ap67et10]

The simple fact that alky must be trucked and not piped, means its going to be worse for the enviroment.

this is a very uninformative, simple and blanket response with nothing but your opinion to back it up. no data, no numbers, just an assumption. maybe its ok for you, but that doesn't work at all for me. if someone tells me something I want the proof behind it.

the link i posted and all the other studies i've read take transportation into account....they have to.

this transportation argument is also an assumption that (despite being relevant or not at this moment) is less and less valid as production and demand increase.

 

[Racey]

Hahahah this thread took a quick turn into PoliticsVille :skull

oops. Not a total loss though, at least there is some decent info buried in the crap

 

[Yellowboat]

you want proof, google the closest place that produces alky. then google the closest refinery. Use google maps to get the driving distance, divide by 5. thats how many gallons of diesel they used to truck it there. The max a truck can legally have is 11.5k gallons of alky. thats truck and trailer.

lets just say that its 100 miles.( which is damn close) thats 20 gallons of diesel for just the one way trip when its full.( there is also the trip back when empty, so that adds to it). You do the math for your location, get back to us.



Piping fluids is always cheaper/ less polluting then trucking them.

 

[Tom Brown]

lets just say that its 100 miles.( which is damn close) thats 20 gallons of diesel for just the one way trip when its full.( there is also the trip back when empty, so that adds to it). You do the math for your location, get back to us.

OK. Let's say 40 gallons for the round trip to haul 11500 gallons. That's 0.3% overhead.

 

[ap67et10]

Hahahah this thread took a quick turn into PoliticsVille :skull

oops. Not a total loss though, at least there is some decent info buried in the crap

you started it

in all seriousness though, its extremely difficult to have a decent conversation about the positives and neg. of ethanol and eE85 without the political aspect to some degree. I like constructive conversations, i think this is one of them. I have a lot of interest in E85 and I for one want to be well informed, often this is the best method.

 

[OCMerrill]

OK. Let's say 40 gallons for the round trip to haul 11500 gallons. That's 0.3% overhead.

What if he doesn't go back empty? Called a back haul? What then, number cruncher?

 

[Tom Brown]

What if he doesn't go back empty? Called a back haul? What then, number cruncher?

What's he going to back haul? The unused fluid in the squeegee basins?

 

[ap67et10]

you want proof, google the closest place that produces alky. then google the closest refinery. Use google maps to get the driving distance, divide by 5. thats how many gallons of diesel they used to truck it there. The max a truck can legally have is 11.5k gallons of alky. thats truck and trailer.

lets just say that its 100 miles.( which is damn close) thats 20 gallons of diesel for just the one way trip when its full.( there is also the trip back when empty, so that adds to it). You do the math for your location, get back to us.



Piping fluids is always cheaper/ less polluting then trucking them.

I'm not exactly sure what to say, mainly because this "proof" still falls well under the uninformative, simple, blanket statement. there is such a lack of information and variables that have to be taken into consideration before this even scratches the surface of valid information to be used in a debate.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and if i am i'm sorry, but I don't know how else to say that your math equation is heavily lacking, and really means nothing. As would anything that i can bring to the table as "proof". the only thing really truly valid in a conversations such as this, are in depth, detailed studies done by people, paid to do this kind of research. there are so many variables present that i can't even fully understand, there is no way i can make an argument based on my own working logic. to do so is saying that i chose to be ignorant to the truth, and really just want to believe whatever it is i want to believe.

Andrew

 

[Yellowboat]

What if he doesn't go back empty? Called a back haul? What then, number cruncher?

they can't put anything else in it. 100 miles is damn close. They also ship it by rail, which is much better then by truck, its often a combo of the two.


there are only a few ethonal plants in CA and they are all in the central valley. which are hundreds of miles away from where its used the most.

 

[OCMerrill]

What's he going to back haul? The unused fluid in the squeegee basins?

OK so that fluid goes LTL Back Haul. We convert that fluid into watered down full loads and sell it to Canada.

This is why they need pipelines. Why is Yellowboat making them truck everything?

 

[Yellowboat]

I'm not exactly sure what to say, mainly because this "proof" still falls well under the uninformative, simple, blanket statement. there is such a lack of information and variables that have to be taken into consideration before this even scratches the surface of valid information to be used in a debate.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and if i am i'm sorry, but I don't know how else to say that your math equation is heavily lacking, and really means nothing. As would anything that i can bring to the table as "proof". the only thing really truly valid in a conversations such as this, are in depth, detailed studies done by people, paid to do this kind of research. there are so many variables present that i can't even fully understand, there is no way i can make an argument based on my own working logic. to do so is saying that i chose to be ignorant to the truth, and really just want to believe whatever it is i want to believe.

Andrew

My point is simple, piping a fluid is better for the envroment then transporting it by some other means.

I've seen so many studys on alky its not even funny, For the most part they have all said. If you are close to a alky plant, use alky, if not, don't.

Since most of the gas used in this country is not close to areas that produce alky, its not a strech to say that for most americans alky is a bad deal.

Think about this for a second. would we still have alky plants if it was not for the goverment mandating it/ paying for it?

 

[OCMerrill]

they can't put anything else in it. 100 miles is damn close. They also ship it by rail, which is much better then by truck, its often a combo of the two.


there are only a few ethonal plants in CA and they are all in the central valley. which are hundreds of miles away from where its used the most.

No offence Yellowboat but I am working on pissing Tom off right now. Soon he will tell me to talk to his niece because were a little more intualectually matched (She's like 12, good conversation I might add), I will then avoid Tom for the next week or so (my hurt feelings), hang with the Jet Boaters, and then ease back into the fold.

It's how I roll.

I don't own anything that runs on E-85 and the last I checked in S. OC there is exactly nothing available to the general public.

So us cal folks getting all worked up is fairly pointless.

 

[WTRR]

I grow corn.

Number 1: it takes huge amounts of fertilizer to grow corn. Look and see how fertilizer is made.Takes huge amounts of diesel to plant, harvest, and transport corn. Not to mention the transportation from the elevator to a ethanol processing plant then transportation to the pumps. As some have mentioned, it takes more than a gallon of fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol. Not a green product.

Mumber 2: I don't set the price for corn, the market does. The old supply and demand scenerio. I'm making good money off my corn crop as long as the weather cooperates.

Number 3: Don't try to make fuel out of the same product that you feed your livestock. Makes absolutely no sense. Wonder why the price of beef, chicken and pork is through the roof? Higher feed prices because of this stupid government ethanol bullshit.
Keep it up and you'll have to become a god damn vegetarian.

Number 4: I go out of my way to purchase gas that doesn't have ethanol in it. Even though it's putting money in my pocket due to increased corn prices, I refuse to buy it.
They want to make ethanol out of prarie grass or what ever, that's fine.

Corn is not the way to go...

 

[MAXIMUS]

E85 with a twist of lime & 2 olives is a nice way to enjoy!:champagne:

Also I have soaked many different items in a container for months at a time. Didn't find anything it affected.