Engine internals

[bajagrom]

What is the difference between SCAT, Eagle, Callie's, Manley, Howard, ClaySmith, Isky Brodix, Merlin? Looking at cranks/rotating assembly. But top end is not far behind.

How much of it is just buy a "name,"when buying parts?

I can't seem to narrow down parts. Nothing stands out as must have.

 

[SummitKarl]

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[obnoxious001]

What is the difference between SCAT, Eagle, Callie's, Manley, Howard, ClaySmith, Isky Brodix, Merlin? Looking at cranks/rotating assembly. But top end is not far behind.

How much of it is just buy a "name,"when buying parts?

I can't seem to narrow down parts. Nothing stands out as must have.

I guess it really depends on how much power you want to build. I wasn't aware that Isky or Brodix or Merlin were selling crankshafts, or Clay Smith for that matter.

Scat and Eagle are similar price and quality, and fine for many applications. Ohio Crankshaft sells a part named to make you think it is US made. Callies Compstar is a small step up, as are the Carrillo K1 pieces.

On the higher end of the scale you could discuss Crower, Sonny Bryant, or the higher end Lunati pieces, along with Carrillo or Oliver rods.

It's easier to try and recommend something knowing more what your goals are.

 

[530RL]

http://www.aera.org/engine-professional/rotating-assemblies/

 

[rivermobster]

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[SummitKarl]

everyone has their preference, several of those all come from the same foundry
on the upper end of the scale I've had very good luck with Eagle cranks and h-beam rods, in high power applications
on the other end of the scale I have great luck with a SCAT stuff too in the less powerful stuff

just remember you can't build power with cheap parts and expect it to hold together

my bang for the buck preferences
rotating = eagle crank and rods with Arias pistons
valve train = crane gold series
heads = AFR or Trick flow

 

[AzGeo]

What is the difference between SCAT, Eagle, Callie's, Manley, Howard, ClaySmith, Isky Brodix, Merlin? Looking at cranks/rotating assembly. But top end is not far behind.

How much of it is just buy a "name,"when buying parts?

I can't seem to narrow down parts. Nothing stands out as must have.

I think you have too many unanswered questions, and I don't think they are the correct questions to be asking at this point. I think you need to SAVE MONEY and PAIN, consult and STICK WITH a PRO BUILDER. It's not the PARTS that make it run, it's the CORRECT PARTS WORKING TOGETHER, that makes the motor run well . You must define what job the engine will do, what RPM range it needs to make the correct power, and what other driveline mods will be required with a power up grade. Once you define the work, RPM range, boat/car constraints, budget, then you can look for brand names that make "the correct parts for your use". An I/O motor uses a much different cam than a jet with an A/B cut impeller, so "horsepower is not just horsepower", it's more like using the correct bullet to hit a specific target. Consider, if you ask ten guys, you will end up with 1/10TH of a result. If you discuss your motor in detail with a shop, spend money there, don't go behind the guy's back to Summit. With everything available these days, the only 'engine magic' is in the correct assembly of 'parts that work together in a particular RPM range'.

 

[BDMar]

I guess it really depends on how much power you want to build. I wasn't aware that Isky or Brodix or Merlin were selling crankshafts, or Clay Smith for that matter.

Scat and Eagle are similar price and quality, and fine for many applications. Ohio Crankshaft sells a part named to make you think it is US made. Callies Compstar is a small step up, as are the Carrillo K1 pieces.

On the higher end of the scale you could discuss Crower, Sonny Bryant, or the higher end Lunati pieces, along with Carrillo or Oliver rods.

It's easier to try and recommend something knowing more what your goals are.

Exactly. Unless you are building big power, the higher end stuff is overkill. You can have a failure with any parts if the machining or assembly procedures are not correct.

The Chinese forged cranks are similar. What separates them is the control the seller has over the forging and finish machining tolerances. IMO Callies Compstar has been much better in that range of crankshafts. The journals on Eagle cranks are NEVER round or straight. We always figure into the quote $$ for having a crankshaft grinder make them correct. When I called them about that their responxe was: "those things happen when you are paying less than other brands". The last Eagle I used, had one rod journal with the incorrect heat treat (soft). 2 strikes. I will never take that chance again.

I agree with Barry on the higher end stuff.

 

[rivermobster]

I think you have too many unanswered questions, and I don't think they are the correct questions to be asking at this point. I think you need to SAVE MONEY and PAIN, consult and STICK WITH a PRO BUILDER. It's not the PARTS that make it run, it's the CORRECT PARTS WORKING TOGETHER, that makes the motor run well . You must define what job the engine will do, what RPM range it needs to make the correct power, and what other driveline mods will be required with a power up grade. Once you define the work, RPM range, boat/car constraints, budget, then you can look for brand names that make "the correct parts for your use". An I/O motor uses a much different cam than a jet with an A/B cut impeller, so "horsepower is not just horsepower", it's more like using the correct bullet to hit a specific target. Consider, if you ask ten guys, you will end up with 1/10TH of a result. If you discuss your motor in detail with a shop, spend money there, don't go behind the guy's back to Summit. With everything available these days, the only 'engine magic' is in the correct assembly of 'parts that work together in a particular RPM range'.

First thing you've ever said that makes sense. :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[AzGeo]

THANK YOU so much.

 

[bajagrom]

1974 Campbell v-drive 12 % gears Powerglide trans, Lighting headers threw transome,3 blade prop, strut moved forward 5-7 inches
454 2 bolt main bored 30 over
Looking for a 4.25 Stroker crankshaft to make a 489
Clay smith cam...... they said i should have no problem with 600 hp and 550 ft lbs of torque
Merlin oval port heads bare. possible port and polished.
Tunnel ram with Twin 660s
Rpm 5000-6000
9.5-1 compression Pump gas 91

So I need a decent crank, pistons, and valve train.

 

[28Eliminator]

Regardless of what Mfg product you select or end up with, don't assume it's correct out of the box. AFR heads and Morel lifters were both a problem on my motor. Not that they aren't good products, the machine work and final spec was not what I had understood it would be, and required a lot of work to get them right.

 

[Abc123]

I think you have too many unanswered questions, and I don't think they are the correct questions to be asking at this point. I think you need to SAVE MONEY and PAIN, consult and STICK WITH a PRO BUILDER. It's not the PARTS that make it run, it's the CORRECT PARTS WORKING TOGETHER, that makes the motor run well . You must define what job the engine will do, what RPM range it needs to make the correct power, and what other driveline mods will be required with a power up grade. Once you define the work, RPM range, boat/car constraints, budget, then you can look for brand names that make "the correct parts for your use". An I/O motor uses a much different cam than a jet with an A/B cut impeller, so "horsepower is not just horsepower", it's more like using the correct bullet to hit a specific target. Consider, if you ask ten guys, you will end up with 1/10TH of a result. If you discuss your motor in detail with a shop, spend money there, don't go behind the guy's back to Summit. With everything available these days, the only 'engine magic' is in the correct assembly of 'parts that work together in a particular RPM range'.

:thumbup:

 

[djunkie]

1974 Campbell v-drive 12 % gears Powerglide trans, Lighting headers threw transome,3 blade prop, strut moved forward 5-7 inches
454 2 bolt main bored 30 over
Looking for a 4.25 Stroker crankshaft to make a 489
Clay smith cam...... they said i should have no problem with 600 hp and 550 ft lbs of torque
Merlin oval port heads bare. possible port and polished.
Tunnel ram with Twin 660s
Rpm 5000-6000
9.5-1 compression Pump gas 91

So I need a decent crank, pistons, and valve train.

I've got an eagle crank and h beam rods in my 496 with AFR heads and it makes over 650 hp. It's a double keyed scat blower crank. I've been told it's good for 1000 hp or maybe more. Just make sure a machine shop checks it all out and it's setup correctly. I don't think you can go wrong with scat or eagle with what you're looking to do.

 

[Hammer]

1974 Campbell v-drive 12 % gears Powerglide trans, Lighting headers threw transome,3 blade prop, strut moved forward 5-7 inches
454 2 bolt main bored 30 over
Looking for a 4.25 Stroker crankshaft to make a 489
Clay smith cam...... they said i should have no problem with 600 hp and 550 ft lbs of torque
Merlin oval port heads bare. possible port and polished.
Tunnel ram with Twin 660s
Rpm 5000-6000
9.5-1 compression Pump gas 91

So I need a decent crank, pistons, and valve train.

Why the tunnel ram ? Is that what you've been running ?

 

[Hammer]

Just make sure a machine shop checks it all out and it's setup correctly. I don't think you can go wrong with scat or eagle with what you're looking to do.

X2 I've built several engines with eagle rods and scat cranks.

 

[bajagrom]

Why the tunnel ram ? Is that what you've been running ?

I have never run with a Tunnel Ram. There is another Campbell that is running a TR that does 70mph. Plus it adds a hot rod look to the boat.

 

[Hammer]

I have never run with a Tunnel Ram. There is another Campbell that is running a TR that does 70mph. Plus it adds a hot rod look to the boat.

TR 's are usually meant for higher rpm ranges than what you are trying to accomplish. It may not be the right intake for your application.

 

[bajagrom]

TR 's are usually meant for higher rpm ranges than what you are trying to accomplish. It may not be the right intake for your application.

That's what I am learning, hence why they are jet boats and not so much on v-drives.

I'm not opposed to selling it and getting some more useful. If I did I would like to see a nice 850 or big carb on the boat.

Did use cast or forged cranks and the few engine that you built?

 

[BigSteve]

What is the difference between SCAT, Eagle, Callie's, Manley, Howard, ClaySmith, Isky Brodix, Merlin? Looking at cranks/rotating assembly. But top end is not far behind.

How much of it is just buy a "name,"when buying parts?

I can't seem to narrow down parts. Nothing stands out as must have.

Short answer, QUALITY

I run Sonny Bryant cranks for a reason :bowdown: Cost wasn't one of them.

Call Barry 001 discuss a package that best fits your goals and price range.

He has lots of real world performance knowledge and will put you on the correct heads, cam and piston
and ring package.

 

[BigSteve]

1974 Campbell v-drive 12 % gears Powerglide trans, Lighting headers threw transome,3 blade prop, strut moved forward 5-7 inches
454 2 bolt main bored 30 over
Looking for a 4.25 Stroker crankshaft to make a 489
Clay smith cam...... they said i should have no problem with 600 hp and 550 ft lbs of torque
Merlin oval port heads bare. possible port and polished.
Tunnel ram with Twin 660s
Rpm 5000-6000
9.5-1 compression Pump gas 91

So I need a decent crank, pistons, and valve train.

You have a BIG beautiful boat that needs lots and lots of torque to move that monster :thumbup:

The tunnel ram and 660 are better suited for a jet boat 660 carbs are a wfo drag carbs for a T/R only) old school POS set up fwiw

Your boat could use a blower to run 91 octane @ 600 plus hp and have a great torque curve

 

[djunkie]

That's what I am learning, hence why they are jet boats and not so much on v-drives.

I'm not opposed to selling it and getting some more useful. If I did I would like to see a nice 850 or big carb on the boat.

Did use cast or forged cranks and the few engine that you built?

Mines got a single 850 on it with a Vic jr. Intake. 665hp 650tq. Only spun it to 6k on the dyno and it was still making power up there.

 

[530RL]

I've got an eagle crank and h beam rods in my 496 with AFR heads and it makes over 650 hp. It's a double keyed scat blower crank. I've been told it's good for 1000 hp or maybe more. Just make sure a machine shop checks it all out and it's setup correctly. I don't think you can go wrong with scat or eagle with what you're looking to do.

That's a lot of HP for 52 MPH

 

[530RL]

I'm not an engine builder but I like to build stuff and I can read.

My boat is slow with a stock 260 merc, alpha drives have less hydraulic friction so that is how I roll.

I built an engine for my sand car as I was on the annual rebuild plan with a professional and I got tired of it. How much worse could I do?

I read a bunch and then did the following. I wanted good power and reliable.

LS1
Eagle 383 rotating assembly
LS1 CNC heads
JESEL rocker arms
Fast Intake 90mm
65 lb/hr injectors
ASA cam shaft (Here the professionals will disagree and I would probably have done something different in hindsight)

10.5 to 1 and twin turbos. Max boost is 12 although the most I have ever made is 11.8. MEFI as my brain, TIAL waste gates and pop off. Intercooler. Rev limiter set at 6500.

It is mated to an Albins 5 speed sequential transaxle in a mid engine application.

On a real dyno, I make at the rear wheels 612.1 HP at 11.8 pounds of boost at 6,000 RPM. I make 573.3 pounds of torque at 5300 RPM. It falls off after 6,000 and I don't know for sure, but a different cam could make more power up top but a loss down below.

The big goal was dependability. After 3 years I pulled the pan. Interestingly, the bearing caps had warped just a tiny bit. I caught it early, glad I pulled the pan. This will be season 8 on the engine.

My car is fairly light for a long travel car (1600 pounds) so it might not be the fastest, but no one is blowing my doors off.

Bottom line is that unless you are trying to make infinite power, a regular dude with the help of the internet can build a very dependable motor with very good power. I'm an idiot and I did it.

It is fun to do these projects as a change from work. Go have fun!

 

[djunkie]

That's a lot of HP for 52 MPH

It's 58 mph.

 

[530RL]

It's 58 mph.

I apologize, 58 unless down river in which case it will break 60. :bowdown:

 

[djunkie]

I apologize, 58 unless down river in which case it will break 60. :bowdown:

Let's not get carried away here.

 

[AzGeo]

Wide open question, then a list of "parts I have". In that turd with 12's I would go to a .060" over with a .25" stroke and call it a 496 (.060 OVER ALLOWS YOU TO USE THE BEST PRICED long rods and SRP pistons) George Stregal will grind you a great 108 lobe center cam. (install it 4+ degrees advanced) It will have no power under 1500 RPMs, but will come alive around 2400 and pull all the way to 6500. As far as performance goes the powerglide is far from the best. I would run a '180 degree intake' with an 850 on top. Dump the TR2 and go big single. Your 'oval port heads' will try to keep a higher velocity throughout the intake, and a nice single carb will keep up with that program. You will need a 'free breathing exhaust system', and an idea as to carb jetting. Start with 82's in the front, 4.5 power valve, and 88's in the back with no power valve. (850 carb)

 

[Rickybobby]

I'm not an engine builder but I like to build stuff and I can read.

My boat is slow with a stock 260 merc, alpha drives have less hydraulic friction so that is how I roll.

I built an engine for my sand car as I was on the annual rebuild plan with a professional and I got tired of it. How much worse could I do?

I read a bunch and then did the following. I wanted good power and reliable.

LS1
Eagle 383 rotating assembly
LS1 CNC heads
JESEL rocker arms
Fast Intake 90mm
65 lb/hr injectors
ASA cam shaft (Here the professionals will disagree and I would probably have done something different in hindsight)

10.5 to 1 and twin turbos. Max boost is 12 although the most I have ever made is 11.8. MEFI as my brain, TIAL waste gates and pop off. Intercooler. Rev limiter set at 6500.

It is mated to an Albins 5 speed sequential transaxle in a mid engine application.

On a real dyno, I make at the rear wheels 612.1 HP at 11.8 pounds of boost at 6,000 RPM. I make 573.3 pounds of torque at 5300 RPM. It falls off after 6,000 and I don't know for sure, but a different cam could make more power up top but a loss down below.

The big goal was dependability. After 3 years I pulled the pan. Interestingly, the bearing caps had warped just a tiny bit. I caught it early, glad I pulled the pan. This will be season 8 on the engine.

My car is fairly light for a long travel car (1600 pounds) so it might not be the fastest, but no one is blowing my doors off.

Bottom line is that unless you are trying to make infinite power, a regular dude with the help of the internet can build a very dependable motor with very good power. I'm an idiot and I did it.

It is fun to do these projects as a change from work. Go have fun!

View attachment 351926

530
Your car is sweet and thanks for taking the time to respond to Jr's questions. We are just a couple of jomokes who would love to have pro built stuff but need to "do it" ourselves in part because we like it that way and then the lotto or that CEO deal hasn't hit yet either!!!! Already learning the hard way but still having fun.....

might have an ol school TR for sale soon !!!! !!!!!