Navajo Generating Station Page, AZ

[Stainless]

If a buyer is not found by Sunday, Salt River Project is set to shut it down in 2019. It is a coal fired plant that receives coal by rail about 75 miles South from Black Mesa near Kayenta, AZ. Although it's largely staffed by Navajo's many Anglos work there. It will be a huge hit for Page's economy since their other industry is tourism that runs from April to Oct. I think the power plant and coal mine employ about 2000 higher paying jobs.

 

[Royally PO'd]

HOLY SHIR, STAINER,, for a change, a thoughtful , useful bit of information.. Are you okay ??

 

[boatdoc55]

HOLY SHIR, STAINER,, for a change, a thoughtful , useful bit of information.. Are you okay ??

Maybe, just maybe, he fell out of the other side of the bed and hit his head again only this time it knocked the old Stainer back into reality.

 

[Taboma]

Well yes he did provide a tiny bit of information.
What he didn't explain is how the Navajo tribe (It's on res land) wants to raise the annual lease to roughly $ 52 Million a year starting in 2019, then you've got to factor in the additional pollution controls required by the EPA. The amount of money that will be required to keep this plant in operation is staggering and why the current owners (Bureau of Reclamation, Salt River Project, AZ Public service, Nevada Energy, and Tucson Electric Power) have already voted (In July) to shut it down and have it dismantled by 2019.

So I'm curious who might step forward by Sunday to save this plant --- if it's a money maker, you'd think the Navajos would buy it.

Personally I don't care one way or the other, I'm hoping Stainless will explain why this plant is a good investment, other than saving primarily Navajo jobs. Or is this just a way of more indirect way subsidizing the Navajos at the same time producing power ?

I know you AZ guys know a shit-ton more about this plant than I do. :thumbsup

 

[USMC2010]

I have lived in AZ for over 7 years and haven't heard of this power plant so I don't care. I do know that 2 days ago I was found not qualified for a job because I am not native American, no other reason. Care to guess what I think about this news?

 

[Old Texan]

Well yes he did provide a tiny bit of information.
What he didn't explain is how the Navajo tribe (It's on res land) wants to raise the annual lease to roughly $ 52 Million a year starting in 2019, then you've got to factor in the additional pollution controls required by the EPA. The amount of money that will be required to keep this plant in operation is staggering and why the current owners (Bureau of Reclamation, Salt River Project, AZ Public service, Nevada Energy, and Tucson Electric Power) have already voted (In July) to shut it down and have it dismantled by 2019.

So I'm curious who might step forward by Sunday to save this plant --- if it's a money maker, you'd think the Navajos would buy it.

Personally I don't care one way or the other, I'm hoping Stainless will explain why this plant is a good investment, other than saving primarily Navajo jobs. Or is this just a way of more indirect way subsidizing the Navajos at the same time producing power ?

I know you AZ guys know a shit-ton more about this plant than I do. :thumbsup

A plant that has been targeted to be shut down likely doesn't have the upgrades to remain online and depending on it's size likely didn't generate enough power to make it worth the cost. And if the Navajo's aren't stable landlords, the power company just wants to get away for the deal. 3 key factors that sound like they were not going to work for the energy companies.

 

[Stainless]

Well yes he did provide a tiny bit of information.
What he didn't explain is how the Navajo tribe (It's on res land) wants to raise the annual lease to roughly $ 52 Million a year starting in 2019, then you've got to factor in the additional pollution controls required by the EPA. The amount of money that will be required to keep this plant in operation is staggering and why the current owners (Bureau of Reclamation, Salt River Project, AZ Public service, Nevada Energy, and Tucson Electric Power) have already voted (In July) to shut it down and have it dismantled by 2019.

So I'm curious who might step forward by Sunday to save this plant --- if it's a money maker, you'd think the Navajos would buy it.

Personally I don't care one way or the other, I'm hoping Stainless will explain why this plant is a good investment, other than saving primarily Navajo jobs. Or is this just a way of more indirect way subsidizing the Navajos at the same time producing power ?

I know you AZ guys know a shit-ton more about this plant than I do. :thumbsup

I don't know much more about it than what I posted. It was based on a news story I listened to this morning. What's puzzling though is why would the Navajo not negotiate a favorable lease if that's truly driving the cost as you say? Maybe they want it gone, IDK? I know it's a Union Plant as I've worked on construction inside it a couple of times. These are good paying jobs that will evaporate as there isn't squat in Page that pays very well. I think the bigger issue is it can't compete with natural gas. Trump has said he's going to save coal, I don't see how though?

 

[Taboma]

I don't know much more about it than what I posted. It was based on a news story I listened to this morning. What's puzzling though is why would the Navajo not negotiate a favorable lease if that's truly driving the cost as you say? Maybe they want it gone, IDK? I know it's a Union Plant as I've worked on construction inside it a couple of times. These are good paying jobs that will evaporate as there isn't squat in Page that pays very well. I think the bigger issue is it can't compete with natural gas. Trump has said he's going to save coal, I don't see how though?

I'm sure it's great for the local economy. From what (Little) I read, that due to regulations and the EPA required scrubbers, the plant is down to 61% of capacity currently. I'm sure that's a factor. By 2020 it mentioned the addition of Catalytic converters to further reduce emissions, more after 2023. So there's many factors in addition to the Navajo's lease increase.
What I found a bit odd was, it stated the Navajo's are petitioning the government to keep it open, despite the current owner's already voting to shut it down. Yet the Navajo's are in control of the lease increase. Would reducing it keep it open ? Is this a negotiating tactic by the owner's ?

The game will be played on all sides, the workers who stand to suffer the most are pawns, as are the peoples of the Navajo nation who surely gained some benefits from leasing income from the plant and coal mine.

Anyway, your post got me curious, they've poured a lot of $$ into that plant to clean it up, shame to just kill it. But this is what our mighty utilities do, it's just dollars to them.

Here in San Diego, their poorly maintained equipment started a fire resulting in the loss of around 1200 homes --- now they're appealing to the PUC to have us rate payers foot the portion of the cost their insurance didn't cover. Plus of course, we're footing the bill due to the increase in insurance costs. Plus having us pay to close down San Onofre nuke plant, it was essentially their FUCK UP that prompted the closing and even that could have been corrected, but no, let's close it and ask our rate payers to cover it --- AND when it's 100 degrees out, advise them not to use their ACs or wash their clothes until 11 PM for fucks sake :grumble:

Ummmm, sorry Stainless, I digressed :rolleyes

 

[Instigator]

I don't know much more about it than what I posted. It was based on a news story I listened to this morning. What's puzzling though is why would the Navajo not negotiate a favorable lease if that's truly driving the cost as you say? Maybe they want it gone, IDK? I know it's a Union Plant as I've worked on construction inside it a couple of times. These are good paying jobs that will evaporate as there isn't squat in Page that pays very well. I think the bigger issue is it can't compete with natural gas. Trump has said he's going to save coal, I don't see how though?

Politics and Greedy Fools!

 

[mash on it]

The Laughlin coal fired plant was shut down in Dec. of '05. Air Quality is better now, too.

The coal was from The Navajo Nation, too. They survived.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/laughlin-coal-fired-power-plant-going-away/

Close the Page plant. There are better ways of making electricity.

Dan'l

 

[milkmoney]

More unemployed fat lazy Indians. Wow shocker to this country [emoji202]

 

[Hullbilly]

More unemployed fat lazy Indians. Wow shocker to this country [emoji202]

Imtakinakneeyouracist

 

[Sleek-Jet]

The Laughlin coal fired plant was shut down in Dec. of '05. Air Quality is better now, too.

The coal was from The Navajo Nation, too. They survived.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/laughlin-coal-fired-power-plant-going-away/

Close the Page plant. There are better ways of making electricity.

Dan'l

Hopi Nation. The Black Mesa mine complex straddles the reservation borders.

The Navajo Generating station can't be economically retrofitted to scrub the emissions required by the previous President's carbon and emission standards. I believe the tribe is suing to keep it open, and the possible change in carbon emission targets might keep it open for a while as well.

There are more expensive ways of generating electricity. So close it, but don't complain when the cost of power goes up.

 

[AzGeo]

Both Laughlin and the Page power generators are NEAR moving water, yet both chose to "burn something" to power their generators .

Neither was built in the 30's, 40's, or even the 1950's, so the owners/builders were well aware of the "pending emissions problems", while not even considering the skyrocketing of fuel prices . Yet, they build these two plants with no regard for "long term overall costs", just "this quarter's profits" .

IF the Navajo Nation wants to keep selling power, they should "partner" with the federal government and develop "above ground water wheel generators" .

Section off an area of river under the dam from all traffic . Build multiple water powered systems that are able to generate the required power, WITHOUT major damage to the environment, and at "reasonable cost" .

Connect that new system to the old wires (grid) and continue doing business as usual .

The water coming out of this dam has a very good steady flow rate and record of performance .

Remember, this is the water that flows thru the Grand Canyon, Mead, Mohave, and down to the border, so right under the dam, there is plenty of water (velocity and volume) to spin many SIMPLE WATER WHEELS ..........

 

[milkmoney]

Imtakinakneeyouracist

Better take both knees lol[emoji6] [emoji202]
And stop post like Brian, ur more mature than that [emoji4]

 

[Hullbilly]

Better take both knees lol[emoji6] [emoji202]
And stop post like Brian, ur more mature than that [emoji4]

I know you are but what am I? Poopface:drunk

 

[Paul65k]

I don't know much more about it than what I posted.

That seems to have been your "MO" since you developed this extreme hatred for Donald trump......

 

[MSum661]

Both Laughlin and the Page power generators are NEAR moving water, yet both chose to "burn something" to power their generators .

Neither was built in the 30's, 40's, or even the 1950's, so the owners/builders were well aware of the "pending emissions problems", while not even considering the skyrocketing of fuel prices . Yet, they build these two plants with no regard for "long term overall costs", just "this quarter's profits" .

IF the Navajo Nation wants to keep selling power, they should "partner" with the federal government and develop "above ground water wheel generators" .

Section off an area of river under the dam from all traffic . Build multiple water powered systems that are able to generate the required power, WITHOUT major damage to the environment, and at "reasonable cost" .

Connect that new system to the old wires (grid) and continue doing business as usual .

The water coming out of this dam has a very good steady flow rate and record of performance .

Remember, this is the water that flows thru the Grand Canyon, Mead, Mohave, and down to the border, so right under the dam, there is plenty of water (velocity and volume) to spin many SIMPLE WATER WHEELS ..........

Geo, I have a water wheel, 8 footer and can get that thing spinning a 100 mph. It was hand made in Apalachia, Virginia and ground dropped at my Home.
There are 3 types of water wheels. Undershot Wheel, Overshot Wheel, and a Breastshot Wheel. I have a Overshot type wheel.
It's kind of a science to understand how they work and actually its like tuning and trying to back off a Blown Injected Motor.
The tiniest amount of water will get it spinning and adding more Volume/flow only makes it turn faster.
The pump has a plumbed in return line with other valves to control the right amount of water flow and whatever water you don't need to achieve the desired spin speed gets sent back through the return line. Otherwise it can become a loose cannon if you want to add the volume and flow.

Anyway...I like your idea. Beats those fugly windmills.

 

[Stainless]

That seems to have been your "MO" since you developed this extreme hatred for Donald trump......

Yea, Trump is my speciality, I'll stick to that. [emoji6]

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Both Laughlin and the Page power generators are NEAR moving water, yet both chose to "burn something" to power their generators .

Neither was built in the 30's, 40's, or even the 1950's, so the owners/builders were well aware of the "pending emissions problems", while not even considering the skyrocketing of fuel prices . Yet, they build these two plants with no regard for "long term overall costs", just "this quarter's profits" .

IF the Navajo Nation wants to keep selling power, they should "partner" with the federal government and develop "above ground water wheel generators" .

Section off an area of river under the dam from all traffic . Build multiple water powered systems that are able to generate the required power, WITHOUT major damage to the environment, and at "reasonable cost" .

Connect that new system to the old wires (grid) and continue doing business as usual .

The water coming out of this dam has a very good steady flow rate and record of performance .

Remember, this is the water that flows thru the Grand Canyon, Mead, Mohave, and down to the border, so right under the dam, there is plenty of water (velocity and volume) to spin many SIMPLE WATER WHEELS ..........

Gee... Too bad they didn't think of that while the damn was being built. :rolleyes

 

[AzGeo]

Gee... Too bad they didn't think of that while the damn was being built. :rolleyes

They don't really need it to be near the dam, just near the flowing water .

Sure planning ahead is great, but there is a whole lottah water flowing down that river below the dam, 24/7 .

Some 'footings" along the shores, and a "bridge like structure" across the span of the water .

I also don't "get" those huge propellers . They are fuggley ........

A "vertical windmill", is so much more simple, less obtrusive, less eyesore, less maintenance, less costly to build, install, and operate .

SOMEONE got in tight with a government agency boss, for us to end up with those ...............

 

[Wheeler]

More unemployed fat lazy Indians. Wow shocker to this country [emoji202]

At least your girl is gainfully employed.

 

[milkmoney]

At least your girl is gainfully employed. [emoji14]

View attachment 590326

Hell ya. Pimpin' ain't easy in Parker [emoji6] [emoji202]

 

[Sleek-Jet]

They don't really need it to be near the dam, just near the flowing water .

Sure planning ahead is great, but there is a whole lottah water flowing down that river below the dam, 24/7 .

Some 'footings" along the shores, and a "bridge like structure" across the span of the water .

I also don't "get" those huge propellers . They are fuggley ........

A "vertical windmill", is so much more simple, less obtrusive, less eyesore, less maintenance, less costly to build, install, and operate .

SOMEONE got in tight with a government agency boss, for us to end up with those ...............

So you think these would somehow be more efficient than the turbines installed in the dam? Or that a couple huge water wheels can generate even a fraction of the 2250 MW of capacity the NGS is capable of?

People in Phoenix sure don't complain all those years when the AC worked in the middle of July.

 

[rrrr]

Both Laughlin and the Page power generators are NEAR moving water, yet both chose to "burn something" to power their generators .

Neither was built in the 30's, 40's, or even the 1950's, so the owners/builders were well aware of the "pending emissions problems", while not even considering the skyrocketing of fuel prices . Yet, they build these two plants with no regard for "long term overall costs", just "this quarter's profits" .

IF the Navajo Nation wants to keep selling power, they should "partner" with the federal government and develop "above ground water wheel generators" .

Section off an area of river under the dam from all traffic . Build multiple water powered systems that are able to generate the required power, WITHOUT major damage to the environment, and at "reasonable cost" .

Connect that new system to the old wires (grid) and continue doing business as usual .

The water coming out of this dam has a very good steady flow rate and record of performance .

Remember, this is the water that flows thru the Grand Canyon, Mead, Mohave, and down to the border, so right under the dam, there is plenty of water (velocity and volume) to spin many SIMPLE WATER WHEELS ..........

.

You can't generate hydro electricity without significant head pressure and flow across the turbines. That means a dam is required. You can't just throw a "water wheel" in the river and make power.

Just as an example, I visited the American Precision Museum in Windsor, VT a few years ago. It's a museum of machine tools and measurements, and shows how the development of those two things led to the 19th century industrial heartland in New England.

The museum has a overhead main shaft system that provided power to the machines. It's powered by a 15' diameter water wheel. The water is dammed upstream of the building, and it drops 10' through a sluiceway to the water wheel.

The water wheel creates 150 horsepower on the main shaft, which then powers the machine tools. This illustrates how much pressure and flow is needed to produce just 150 HP using hydro power.

Check out the website. It's one of the best museums I've seen. They have the first Bridgeport mill made on display, along with tools that were the building blocks of American industry.

Some of the other machines on display include the Bridgeport Milling Machine, Serial #1, made by the Bridgeport (CT) Pattern and Model Works. After its introduction in 1938, this became the most popular milling machine of the 20th century.

https://www.americanprecision.org/14-exhibits/current-exhibits

.

Some of you guys are bagging on the Navajos. At least they are doing something to make money and provide jobs, and it's not another soul stealing casino. Most Indian casinos manufacture drunks, broken families, and welfare cases. The power plant has real jobs.

 

[AzGeo]

.

You can't generate hydro electricity without significant head pressure and flow across the turbines. That means a dam is required. You can't just throw a "water wheel" in the river and make power.

Just as an example, I visited the American Precision Museum in Windsor, VT a few years ago. It's a museum of machine tools and measurements, and shows how the development of those two things led to the 19th century industrial heartland in New England.

The museum has a overhead main shaft system that provided power to the machines. It's powered by a 15' diameter water wheel. The water is dammed upstream of the building, and it drops 10' through a sluiceway to the water wheel.

The water wheel creates 150 horsepower on the main shaft, which then powers the machine tools. This illustrates how much pressure and flow is needed to produce just 150 HP using hydro power.

Check out the website. It's one of the best museums I've seen. They have the first Bridgeport mill made on display, along with tools that were the building blocks of American industry.



https://www.americanprecision.org/14-exhibits/current-exhibits

.

Some of you guys are bagging on the Navajos. At least they are doing something to make money and provide jobs, and it's not another soul stealing casino. Most Indian casinos manufacture drunks, broken families, and welfare cases. The power plant has real jobs.

Those giant wind generators are powered by wind, not water, which is 300+ times more dense that air .

Those who say that "you can't just throw a wheel in the water", have not explored how Asian countries use "ocean wave action" to generate power, so in 2017 I do not agree with your statement .

I can quickly fab up a "vertical wind generator", using an old style GM alternator and some bits of aluminum, that will produce power in a "breeze", and serious power in a wind .

I feel you underestimate the power of "moving water", much like most of the population .

Old time "water powered machines", included, wood cutting, grist mills, electricity generation, and none of them were attached to a large dam . Had the water wheel you describe been made of Kevlar with 10 other of the same wheel on both sides of it (across the whole flow of water), on bearings with pressure lubrication, and alternators rather than generators, I know it would be a major power source .

General Motors produces electric cars, but they use "DC motors and have 30 to 50 mile drive ranges" (with the batteries available) . A big entity, that has directed it's resources in a particular design direction .

Tesla, an up and coming NEW COMPANY, has gone with "AC motors", and the conversion of (available battery power) DC power into AC, while providing over 300 miles of driving range .

Some will lead in this field, others will follow .

The electricity producing dams along the Colorado River were built and completed in the 1920's and 1930's, specifically Parker Dam was completed in 1938 .

Are you telling me that our technology has not progressed in the field electrical generation since 1938 ?

How much "cost to build and install", and the actual power produced by those ridicules "wind farms" ?

MOVING WATER will do the same work at 300% more efficiency than air , because it's just that much more powerful .

 

[Taboma]

Must admit deriving below the dam 2nd stage generation (The 1st being the dam's hydroelectric head pressure generators) is an interesting concept.
Like anything it boils down to cost vs return (MW/KW capacity) , has anybody anywhere done it using modern materials & methods that you're aware of ?

I'm aware of the wave generation (Many differing designs), also aware of tidal generation (with and without head pressure), but haven't found anything on what you're proposing.

 

[AzGeo]

Must admit deriving below the dam 2nd stage generation (The 1st being the dam's hydroelectric head pressure generators) is an interesting concept.
Like anything it boils down to cost vs return (MW/KW capacity) , has anybody anywhere done it using modern materials & methods that you're aware of ?

I'm aware of the wave generation (Many differing designs), also aware of tidal generation (with and without head pressure), but haven't found anything on what you're proposing.

Both of you are correct, but WHY do we have all these huge "propeller driven" wind farms, when "vertical wind generators" are so much more deficient, and cost effective ?

BECAUSE "politics often controls what the public gets, and often the best products never get to market .

The 1930's technology that is being used and "up dated" as much as possible in the Parker Dam (all those on the Colorado), can not compare to "light weight modern materials, low friction mechanisms, and digital controls" .

Less mechanical drag, more efficient generation, and less heat and power losses within the entire system .

To KNOW that we have wind (expensive) generation, all over this country, and then state that "water powered electric generation must have a high pressure water source", is no longer the case, IMO .

The gross mass of "flowing water" will always be (at least) 300+ times more powerful (their density differential) than that of water . But since we only see "wind generators", many assume that water cannot do the same or better job .

In a similar light, there remains an equal division between those who champion "conventional electric motors", VS those who know that "mag-lev motors" are the future . It's a question of "constant current draw VS interrupted current draw" to do the same work .............

 

[Taboma]

I will readily admit to not being qualified to debate VAWT vs HAWT in theory or practical application. Seems there's a lot of "Experts" who are however. Certainly interesting reading.

Same would hold true of a design discussion for In-Flow hydro-generation. I find both topics interesting as a spectator, but have only been involved on the output side of some very large HAWTs, nothing hydro generation related.

There's a lot of reading material available on wind generation and design, but can't seem to find much in regards to the In-Flow hydro generation that you're proposing utilizing modern technology.

One site I did find particularly interesting, although more dedicated to small scale hyro-generation was here:

https://www.homepower.com/articles/...-installation/microhydro-myths-misconceptions

There's a section on In-Flow stream / river generation, I found it interesting from a layman's perspective, but certainly don't feel qualified to debate it.

My wife is highly involved in the field of really big electro-magnetic things. Some that serve mankind, others capable of aiding in it's destruction. And before everybody turns and takes aim at me, NOT "The Train" :eek But that's all I'm going to say about that.

OK, let's get back to P&G ringside and see how much further humanity has devolved overnight :rolleyes