Why did mercury get rid of...

[hallett21]

Why did the scorpion 377 get the 86? Was it not a popular motor? What was the price difference between a 377 and 496? I know I may be a little late in asking the question but just wondering.

 

[IinsureU]

small block I think, right ?? I was going to order a pair of those when I built my boat, but they became unavailable about (2) months prior to.

 

[PokerRun388]

I have no idea, I never asked anyone from Merc. at DS,

However the demand for larger boats seems greater now than ever before, maybe? And higher HP engines, that are reliable, user friendly and come w/ a warranty seem too be what people want, maybe?.:hmm

The 377 was cool, so was the 525sc.:thumbsup

 

[hallett21]

I have no idea, I never asked anyone from Merc. at DS,

However the demand for larger boats seems greater now than ever before, maybe? And higher HP engines, that are reliable, user friendly and come w/ a warranty seem too be what people want, maybe?.:hmm

The 377 was cool, so was the 525sc.:thumbsup

The 377 has to be the perfect performance I/O motor thats easy on fuel and quick for the 22 and under boats.

 

[pronstar]

I know it was pricey and had some nice internals in it. I'd rather run two scorpions, than 496 Mags...he'll with their light weight they might give 496 Mag HO's a run for their money.


2 Tapatalk 1 Cup

 

[hallett21]

Just poked around on mercury's website and they still have a scorprion 377 but its only for inboards.... :grumble:

http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/towsports/scorpion_377.php

 

[PokerRun388]

The 377 has to be the perfect performance I/O motor thats easy on fuel and quick for the 22 and under boats.

It was a cool motor. I still have old mags of when they started testing it, 6.2L, right?.:thumbsup

I know it was pricey and had some nice internals in it. I'd rather run two scorpions, than 496 Mags...he'll with their light weight they might give 496 Mag HO's a run for their money.


2 Tapatalk 1 Cup

Would be a cool test, same boat test w/ 377s and 496ho's, see what the numbers would be? I agree on the price of the 377, but the Merc. engineering is top notch.:thumbsup

 

[Riverbottom]

Great idea, but pretty sorry internals. I have been into a couple, and simply a two bolt block and stock rods and crank. Not really a performance motor. Great concept, just needs more than blue paint on the outside.

 

[hallett21]

It was a cool motor. I still have old mags of when they started testing it, 6.2L, right?.:thumbsup





Would be a cool test, same boat test w/ 377s and 496ho's, see what the numbers would be? I agree on the price of the 377, but the Merc. engineering is top notch.:thumbsup

Someone on here has to have drive both right? lol.

That would be a cool article to re read. :thumbsup

 

[PokerRun388]

Someone on here has to have drive both right? lol.

That would be a cool article to re read. :thumbsup

:thumbsup

 

[SBMech]

I know it was pricey and had some nice internals in it. I'd rather run two scorpions, than 496 Mags...he'll with their light weight they might give 496 Mag HO's a run for their money.


2 Tapatalk 1 Cup

Pound for Pound I'd much rather have 496's. The torque difference is what pushes the boat through water, big blocks have a clear advantage.

 

[hallett21]

Hey RD!!!!!

You versus a 496 whos pulling ahead?

 

[PokerRun388]

Test boat: Eliminator 30 Daytona

Twin 377s, and Twin 496ho's... Which boat is faster?.

 

[rivrrts429]

In a boat...

No replacement for displacement. The Scorpions I would imagine would rev faster but spending good hard money on a boat, I'm going big block.

 

[Outdrive1]

The Scorpion motor is Merc Racing motor, hand assembled. The 496 is a black motor from GM.

I'm pretty sure the Scorpion is pretty close in Hp, not torque though. It makes up for it in weight.

 

[RiverDave]

Great idea, but pretty sorry internals. I have been into a couple, and simply a two bolt block and stock rods and crank. Not really a performance motor. Great concept, just needs more than blue paint on the outside.

The blue merc 377 by mercury racing I believe is different then the black inboard versions.

RD

 

[RiverDave]

Hey RD!!!!!

You versus a 496 whos pulling ahead?

Hard to say.. I know the boat runs a lot better without all the weight in the back. My boat pushes 70's.. With some work to the motor and a whipple I think 90 would be pretty easy.

I don't see any 600-650hp I/o 21rc's running anywhere near 90.

 

[Phebus]

The blue merc 377 by mercury racing I believe is different then the black inboard versions.

RD

I thought the Scorpion was blue, and the standard 377 was black.

 

[Riverbottom]

The blue merc 377 by mercury racing I believe is different then the black inboard versions.

RD

Hope I am wrong, but maybe Barry knows. The blue Scorpions I have seen without pans were two bolt basic motors. I would still prefer a 377 to a 496 any day.

 

[Phebus]

2Forceful had twin 377?s in his Force, and it accelerated like a bat out of hell.

 

[SBMech]

The 377 MAG can reach 320 horsepower and is usually used on even larger boats than the 350. The base model weighs 993 lb.

The Mercruiser 496 MAG is a "big-block" outboard and weighs in at 1,080 lb, generating 430 horsepower.

I dunno, I might take the 110 HP and at least 200 FP of torque for 100lbs of weight.....

 

[Outdrive1]

The 377 mag is not the same as the blue 377.

The blue motor was rated at 350 Hp and was rumored to be closer to high 300's. It also has a forged Lunati crank.

 

[hallett21]

Whats the redline on the 377 vs 496

 

[pronstar]

Great idea, but pretty sorry internals. I have been into a couple, and simply a two bolt block and stock rods and crank. Not really a performance motor. Great concept, just needs more than blue paint on the outside.

I don't know if they're sorry...
From googling around, it looks like they have:
- Forged aluminum pistons w/teflon coated skirt
- Forged steel rods
- Lunati 4340 forged steel crankshaft
- balanced rotating assembly
- hand-assembled

I recall an old thread where I thought they were junk because they used remanufactured blocks...but someone (I think RD) put up a link listing the parts they used, and it wasn't bad at all

 

[Outdrive1]

That's 350 hp at the prop btw....

 

[77charger]

I rode in a 28ft warlock cat when them motors were new this one hadthe blue ones i thought they were 375 hp but the boat went 89mph with twin scorpions.


I thought then that hey would be awesome motors for the 21 ft boats for sure.Still wouldnt mind one in my 21ftr

 

[spectras only]

I had big blocks in all my boats except the one I have now. I have the 377 [ 6.2 MX ] black engines and love it. HP is rated 320 at the prop [ give or take 20-30+ at the crank. The Scorpion 377 [ blue engine ] is reated 20HP more, due to its higher compression ratio, slightly different cam and forged pistons. The Scorpion engine is considerably more expensive compared to the black version, hence the drop in use. There's a comparison in the auto industry,ie; Ford 4.6 SOHC 2V modular vs 4.6 DOHC 32V, crate engines from SVT cost twice for Mustangs. My 03 Navigator has the Intech 5.4 DOHC 32V that pushed the cost building the engine too high,so Ford decided to switch to the much cheaper Triton SOHC 3V they used in their trucks and the power stayed the same at 300HP for less $$$.
As I recall, Merc may have changed the internals in the 377 black engine after 2003 or 2004. Mines are 2003, steel crankshaft and rods, billet custom grind roller crankshaft and low compression engine to be able to use 87 octane.I couldn't fit my hands between the engines to change plugs if I had big blocks in my boat! I turn B1 26P props at 5000 rpm ,so the engines have grunt no question.If I decided to slap a couple of Whipples on, could easily get another 100HP.Local guy has a 28 Donzi ZX with the lesser [ 350 EFI] with Whipples on and runs around 80mph. If I find another 20 Spectra, I'd probably install a 6.2 with a Bravo drive in it.

 

[RiverDave]

I thought the Scorpion was blue, and the standard 377 was black.

No they both have scorpion logos on them..

 

[TPC]

They were an expensive and thirsty option,, may just as well go big block was my take.

Didn't Marine Power and a few other companies offer their equiv version of the Scorpion for a lot less money?
I figured that's why ya didn't see Merc's much anymore in new Wake Board Boats.
Purely bang for the buck.
I remember one dealer complaining the Scorpions were difficult to get Mercury to cover the warranty.

 

[NicPaus]

They were an expensive and thirsty option,, may just as well go big block was my take.

:thumbsup Thats what I was told in 2000 went with the 454 mpi for a few k less. Weighs more but never an issue and torque from big block, The 502 was another 6-7K upgrade at the time. The 496 has replaced those options and they still offered the 350 mag with 300 hp. They might still make them for ski boats but better off with displacement. Weight saved goes a way with 1 more passenger.

 

[hallett21]

How much was the 377 scorpion?

 

[NicPaus]

How much was the 377 scorpion?

Been 12 years but if I recall maybe 2-3k more than 454 mpi 310hp in between the 454 mag 6-7k upgrade and 454 mpi on price 454 mag 385. It was a blue motor at the time not the 6.2 mpi that replaced the 454. Neighbor bought a new schiada 21 with one 70k in 2000 was a "deal" as he knew them suppose to be 80k +.

 

[RiverDave]

I don't know if they're sorry...
From googling around, it looks like they have:
- Forged aluminum pistons w/teflon coated skirt
- Forged steel rods
- Lunati 4340 forged steel crankshaft
- balanced rotating assembly
- hand-assembled

I recall an old thread where I thought they were junk because they used remanufactured blocks...but someone (I think RD) put up a link listing the parts they used, and it wasn't bad at all

They were offering 383's that were remfg'd scorpion and 377 motors.. They made 385 or more? Can't remember now.

Been 12 years but if I recall maybe 2-3k more than 454 mpi 310hp in between the 454 mag 6-7k upgrade and 454 mpi on price 454 mag 385. It was a blue motor at the time not the 6.2 mpi that replaced the 454. Neighbor bought a new schiada 21 with one 70k in 2000 was a "deal" as he knew them suppose to be 80k +.

I never priced it, but was told they were priced 10K above the mag motors back then which was why they were hard to sell?

Your neighbor has a 21 RC with a scorpion motor in it? If he does I'd like to talk to him. I know Schiada only built 2, and one is parked in my garage.

RD

 

[TPC]

How much was the 377 scorpion?

I remember in our case it was a $4000 extra cost option each motor, no negotiation on price.
We went big block and spent the difference on upgrading the sound system instead.

 

[NicPaus]

They were offering 383's that were remfg'd scorpion and 377 motors.. They made 385 or more? Can't remember now.



I never priced it, but was told they were priced 10K above the mag motors back then which was why they were hard to sell?

Your neighbor has a 21 RC with a scorpion motor in it? If he does I'd like to talk to him. I know Schiada only built 2, and one is parked in my garage.

RD

No longer my neighbor. Looks just like your boat. His father in law did alot of machine work making bezels I recall for Schiada. Alexander demolition? Schiada was on Lockness 3 minutes away for years. The boat was built for someone else and he ended up taking it for 70k as og owner backed out or something along the lines.

 

[NicPaus]

At the time base model Ultra had a 350 alpha. 5-6k got you the magnum 7-8 k for the 454 mpi 10-11k scorpion blue 502 was around 14k upgrade all with Bravo upgrade over alpha and a stainless prop, Year 2000

 

[TPC]

I thought the Scorpion was an expensive option.
But that was some years ago, looks cheap by today's prices.

Two people we know who had them both experienced an engine failure and headaches getting Merc to cover them.
They eventually split the replacement cost with Mercury after a year of negotiating.
"if it were Marine Power, new, free motors would be shipped the same day we made the warranty claim" our dealer told us.

Rumor was near the production end, Mercury took some money out of the motor and they were different.
Dunno how true that was or if their is a lick of truth at all to the tale.. Heard all kinds of stories that lost nothing in the re-telling.
Then the 383's hit the market with other Marine engine companies offering them for the same price Merc wanted for their basic 350 and that was that as far as the makers of the boats we liked were concerned.

Our current boat offered the Merc 502 at a $12K option, but ya get the Sea Core heat exchanger, Bravo 3 etc.
I thought I was getting fucked, but Danny Donahue told me the price was about right if ya look at the whole package.
"Buy every option you can afford" Danny told us. We're glad we did.

We meet others who bought our model boat with the small blocks and they wish they pop'd for the 502 option.
They have to lean on the throttle harder and in the end fuel burn is not much different, and I easily have 7 mph + on them and a hell of a lot faster planing and acceleration and a much faster cruising speed sweet spot.
It's not just more power, the whole physics of the boat changed for the better with the 502 / Bravo 3.

No replacement for displacement still applies.

 

[lakemadness]

I thought the Scorpion was an expensive option.
But that was some years ago, looks cheap by today's prices.

Two people we know who had them both experienced an engine failure and headaches getting Merc to cover them.
They eventually split the replacement cost with Mercury after a year of negotiating.
"if it were Marine Power, new, free motors would be shipped the same day we made the warranty claim" our dealer told us.

Rumor was near the production end, Mercury took some money out of the motor and they were different.
Dunno how true that was or if their is a lick of truth at all to the tale.. Heard all kinds of stories that lost nothing in the re-telling.
Then the 383's hit the market with other Marine engine companies offering them for the same price Merc wanted for their basic 350 and that was that as far as the makers of the boats we liked were concerned.

Our current boat offered the Merc 502 at a $12K option, but ya get the Sea Core heat exchanger, Bravo 3 etc.
I thought I was getting fucked, but Danny Donahue told me the price was about right if ya look at the whole package.
"Buy every option you can afford" Danny told us. We're glad we did.

We meet others who bought our model boat with the small blocks and they wish they pop'd for the 502 option.
They have to lean on the throttle harder and in the end fuel burn is not much different, and I easily have 7 mph + on them and a hell of a lot faster planing and acceleration and a much faster cruising speed sweet spot.
It's not just more power, the whole physics of the boat changed for the better with the 502 / Bravo 3.

No replacement for displacement still applies.

Did you have the option to do v-drive on your boat? If so, what made you decide on the bravos and not v-drives?

 

[TPC]

Did you have the option to do v-drive on your boat? If so, what made you decide on the bravos and not v-drives?

No option on the drives.
The Bravo 3 went through some big improvements for 2011 BTW.

 

[WATERDOG]

I run my 6.2 MX with a Bravo and only a Mirage 19p. Great GPH and gets up and goes. :thumbsup

 

[SBMech]

Hard to say.. I know the boat runs a lot better without all the weight in the back. My boat pushes 70's.. With some work to the motor and a whipple I think 90 would be pretty easy.

I don't see any 600-650hp I/o 21rc's running anywhere near 90.

The weight difference being around 150-200 lbs max between SBC and BBC, you are still going to need 800+ HP to hit 90's in a daycruiser. The formula really does not change that much smallblock to big block, it's like having a loaded cooler in your boat.

Unless there is something magic about a Schiada's bottom that I am unaware of.... How much does your boat weigh RD?

 

[Outdrive1]

The weight difference being around 150-200 lbs max between SBC and BBC, you are still going to need 800+ HP to hit 90's in a daycruiser. The formula really does not change that much smallblock to big block, it's like having a loaded cooler in your boat.

Unless there is something magic about a Schiada's bottom that I am unaware of.... How much does your boat weigh RD?

Your calculations for speed are way off. His is an I/O, not a v-drive. My 24 Schiada runs just over 85 with 650hp and mines a heavy layup.

 

[djunkie]

Your calculations for speed are way off. His is an I/O, not a v-drive. My 24 Schiada runs just over 85 with 650hp and mines a heavy layup.

Yep. V-drives are way slower. Mine has 665 hp and might hit 60. But it gets there real fast.


Sent from my iPad using Tap That Ass

 

[SBMech]

Your calculations for speed are way off. His is an I/O, not a v-drive. My 24 Schiada runs just over 85 with 650hp and mines a heavy layup.

Ahh there it is. I was missing some info, thanks Outlaw

 

[Ultra28]

We put a few in over the years. They ran ok, but they didn't compare to a 496 mag for top speed in most models. It took a lot of prop testing to get them totally dialed.

We had a couple of boat models that loved the Scorpions. The 247 XS did well with it.

If I remember correctly, the OEM cost was about the same, or maybe a little higher, than a 454 Mag or 496 mag. The horsepower rating was 360 HP. When they were phasing them out, they were selling them real cheap. About 2 grand less than a 496 mag.

The 496 Mag in our 23 deck runs 73 MPH. A Scorpion only ran high 60's and would be lucky to hit 70.

The 247 XS would run about the same speed with either engine package.

Here is the article from the Powerboat Magazine test they did on the first 247 we built, also the first boat we did with a Scorpion.


2000 Awards for Product Excellence
ULTRA 247 XS
Custom Runabout of The Year

When John West and his crew at Ultra Custom Boats in El Cajon, CA, worked all night to finish their entry in the custom runabout category of our 2000 Performance Trials, they weren?t thinking about winning an award. They just wanted an honest test. When they showed up to our Performance Trials location on the Colorado River in Parker, AZ, West paced nervously saying things like, ?That?s not quite ready yet? and ?We?ll be changing that.?

Change nothing folks. The Ultra 247 XS is our Custom Runabout of the Year. Equipped with a Scorpion 377 engine from Mercury Racing, the 24?7? long, 7?8?-wide bowrider captivated every member of our test team.

A hot-rod boat deserves a hot-rod engine, and the 360-hp Mercury small-block is certainly that. The 247 XS ran a radar-record top speed of 70.6 mph at 5300 rpm.

The boat?s time to plane of 5.1 seconds was acceptable, and its speed of 64 mph in 20 seconds was impressive. What blew us away, however, was its ability to run from 20 to 40 mph in 4.4 seconds, 30 to 50 mph in 5.8 seconds and 40 to 60 mph in 7 seconds. With that kind of snap at the tips of their throttling fingers, owners of the 247 XS won?t spend a whole lot of time getting passed.

The 247 XS wasn?t merely the best-handling custom runabout * it was among the best-handling boats we tested during the 2000 Performance Trials. Regardless of whatever extreme and sudden maneuver we threw its way, the 247 XS never slid or hopped.

Every pin, pattern and fade in the gelcoat of the 247 XS was impeccable. Construction materials for the hand-built beauty included AME 4000 resin, 1708 Knytex, bi-and tri-directional fiberglass and Coremat. ?Hard? materials included Mariner marine plywood and Micro-lam stringers.

Ultra decked out the 247 XS with powder-painted, color-matched hardware such as handrails and billet cleats. As for rigging in the engine compartment, it also was executed in flawless custom fashion. The engine was secured with powder-painted L-angles and motor mounts thru-bolted to the stringers and the standard transom assembly. Wire looms were organized with evenly spaced tie-wraps and supported by stainless-steel cushion clamps.

Highpoint of the boat?s interior? Two ?mini? cabins, one on each side of the open-bow walkthrough. Our taller test team members said they preferred this configuration to that of so many mid-cabin boats, where they have to stoop or crawl under the deck.

The open-bow lounges, cockpit buckets and bench seats were super supportive. At the boat?s starboard side helm noteworthy features included a Gaffrig throttle and shifter with drive-trim control on the throttle handle, mechanical drive-trim indicator and anodized panels for the various accessory switches.

Maybe West and company should work the night shift more often, if for no other reason than to have their days free to enjoy the 247 XS.


Here are a couple of shots of one we did in a 23 Deck.

 

[spectras only]

I run my 6.2 MX with a Bravo and only a Mirage 19p. Great GPH and gets up and goes. :thumbsup

What is your max rpm and the drive ratio? The 6.2 MX' rev limiter is set at 5150 ,so I wonder if you're hitting the limiter with the 19P 3 blade Mirage. Is it a Mirage plus or a standard prop. I hit 5000 rpm with 26P 4 blades that are tuned/labbed to true 25P +cup. Also, I have the 1.65 drive ratio to help and the 6.2's should all have that ratio imho, especially when someone wants to replace big blocks.

John , I still think the Scorpions were a great package and I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THEM IN MY BOAT!

 

[mjc]

All those are good things but GM has not used that motor block in a street car for something like 10 years, so they need to start using the GENiv motor now

 

[OCMerrill]

They got rid of it because it's a SBC and those are gay on RDP. You must have a big block to have any respect here.

And if you have an Alpha drive?

 

[WATERDOG]

What is your max rpm and the drive ratio? The 6.2 MX' rev limiter is set at 5150 ,so I wonder if you're hitting the limiter with the 19P 3 blade Mirage. Is it a Mirage plus or a standard prop. I hit 5000 rpm with 26P 4 blades that are tuned/labbed to true 25P +cup. Also, I have the 1.65 drive ratio to help and the 6.2's should all have that ratio imho, especially when someone wants to replace big blocks.

John , I still think the Scorpions were a great package and I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THEM IN MY BOAT!

Ratio is 1.50 and the prop is a Mirage Plus. Not hitting the limiter as I had the computer limit moved up a bit (5200). WOT is still about 5100 with a heavy load. I'm sure if I dumped the people and ice chests I'd hit the limiter.

 

[PokerRun388]

We put a few in over the years. They ran ok, but they didn't compare to a 496 mag for top speed in most models. It took a lot of prop testing to get them totally dialed.

We had a couple of boat models that loved the Scorpions. The 247 XS did well with it.

If I remember correctly, the OEM cost was about the same, or maybe a little higher, than a 454 Mag or 496 mag. The horsepower rating was 360 HP. When they were phasing them out, they were selling them real cheap. About 2 grand less than a 496 mag.

The 496 Mag in our 23 deck runs 73 MPH. A Scorpion only ran high 60's and would be lucky to hit 70.

The 247 XS would run about the same speed with either engine package.

Here is the article from the Powerboat Magazine test they did on the first 247 we built, also the first boat we did with a Scorpion.


2000 Awards for Product Excellence
ULTRA 247 XS
Custom Runabout of The Year

When John West and his crew at Ultra Custom Boats in El Cajon, CA, worked all night to finish their entry in the custom runabout category of our 2000 Performance Trials, they weren?t thinking about winning an award. They just wanted an honest test. When they showed up to our Performance Trials location on the Colorado River in Parker, AZ, West paced nervously saying things like, ?That?s not quite ready yet? and ?We?ll be changing that.?

Change nothing folks. The Ultra 247 XS is our Custom Runabout of the Year. Equipped with a Scorpion 377 engine from Mercury Racing, the 24?7? long, 7?8?-wide bowrider captivated every member of our test team.

A hot-rod boat deserves a hot-rod engine, and the 360-hp Mercury small-block is certainly that. The 247 XS ran a radar-record top speed of 70.6 mph at 5300 rpm.

The boat?s time to plane of 5.1 seconds was acceptable, and its speed of 64 mph in 20 seconds was impressive. What blew us away, however, was its ability to run from 20 to 40 mph in 4.4 seconds, 30 to 50 mph in 5.8 seconds and 40 to 60 mph in 7 seconds. With that kind of snap at the tips of their throttling fingers, owners of the 247 XS won?t spend a whole lot of time getting passed.

The 247 XS wasn?t merely the best-handling custom runabout * it was among the best-handling boats we tested during the 2000 Performance Trials. Regardless of whatever extreme and sudden maneuver we threw its way, the 247 XS never slid or hopped.

Every pin, pattern and fade in the gelcoat of the 247 XS was impeccable. Construction materials for the hand-built beauty included AME 4000 resin, 1708 Knytex, bi-and tri-directional fiberglass and Coremat. ?Hard? materials included Mariner marine plywood and Micro-lam stringers.

Ultra decked out the 247 XS with powder-painted, color-matched hardware such as handrails and billet cleats. As for rigging in the engine compartment, it also was executed in flawless custom fashion. The engine was secured with powder-painted L-angles and motor mounts thru-bolted to the stringers and the standard transom assembly. Wire looms were organized with evenly spaced tie-wraps and supported by stainless-steel cushion clamps.

Highpoint of the boat?s interior? Two ?mini? cabins, one on each side of the open-bow walkthrough. Our taller test team members said they preferred this configuration to that of so many mid-cabin boats, where they have to stoop or crawl under the deck.

The open-bow lounges, cockpit buckets and bench seats were super supportive. At the boat?s starboard side helm noteworthy features included a Gaffrig throttle and shifter with drive-trim control on the throttle handle, mechanical drive-trim indicator and anodized panels for the various accessory switches.

Maybe West and company should work the night shift more often, if for no other reason than to have their days free to enjoy the 247 XS.


Here are a couple of shots of one we did in a 23 Deck.

Great Pics, that engine looks sweet..:thumbsup