Snooping around.. Pontoons! Lol

[RiverDave]

Went down to Germaine today to take a look at some of the other Avalon’s like mine and see how they are setup.. Mine came with the motors all the way down.. I haven’t measured it yet but I’m guessing the prop shaft is six inches below the toon on mine.

The last time I ran it I left the motors in the trimmed position to see where they would be at in relevance to the bottom of the boat.

When I pulled it out of the water I was kinda surprised to see that carrying the nose at full tilt the thrust line was neutral and not positive.

In my mind that means I can raise them considerably, reducing drag and add a little more positive trim to make up the difference on carrying the nose.. (could be wrong on that we will find out)

Anyhow to the point of the post.. most performance boat guys will buy a boat and half of them won’t so much as even experiment with props.. They just kinda run them and think the Mfg did all the testing.. which in my experiences there is always a lot left in the setup..

I was surprised to see virtually 100% of these new toons people are already adjusting motor heights and playing with props and trying to get more than the next guy.. lol

It’s gonna be a little bit until I really start getting into it.. but I’m gonna do some baseline testing, and then we are gonna start with raising the motors.. and then let the games begin!! . I’m not stopping with just raising motors.

Other boats in the lot.. you can see they have already been experimenting with motor heights

 

[BHC Vic]

I went through this for a while. Played with props, want to pull the cats, tune the ecm etc. everyone’s answer was... Seems like a lot of wasted time, energy, effort, and money. If you want to go faster buy a different boat.

 

[farmo83]

An old family friend was way into performance boats back in the 80's and bought a pontoon boat when I was in high school. I think the 2nd weekend he had we found a stout tree and raised the motor a few inches as he was wanting more out of it. Thankfully that limb held.

 

[DLow]

I noticed with my toon that when I finally raised my engine too high, it wasn’t that I had a lot of prop slip or lost bow lift, I actually had problems with aeration during turns. I’m interested to see what your experience is. Mine was just a single 250 on a 24’ triple toon. I also played with a couple props and the aeration didn’t go away, so I dropped it down a bolt hole, and it was much better.

 

[lbhsbz]

Just order a pair of jack plates....that’s the beauty of outboards...you can change the setup by pushing a button.

 

[RandyH]

I would loose the livewell pump and plumbing........at least 1 MPH right there.

 

[Pivot]

Question.
I was going to do this 4 years ago on my Avalon toon.
I did go up a prop size and gained 2mph. But for the cost of the prop it wasn’t worth it
Raising the motor is something I still want to do.
what’s the best way to lift it? car jack under it?

 

[Ricks raft]

Seems like a lot of weight and power for 4 bolts thru double skin aluminum.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Just order a pair of jack plates....that’s the beauty of outboards...you can change the setup by pushing a button.

This right here Dave. 2 jack plates and tweak with the heights from there. As your load changes, you can adjust your engines on the fly and get the most efficient set-up possible for the current conditions etc. Absolutely the way to go.

 

[gqchris]

Question.
I was going to do this 4 years ago on my Avalon toon.
I did go up a prop size and gained 2mph. But for the cost of the prop it wasn’t worth it
Raising the motor is something I still want to do.
what’s the best way to lift it? car jack under it?

No car jack! Lifting eye on top and Cherry Picker or Gantry Cain or Forklift.

At least that is how I work on my older 2 strokes, not sure on these new fancy motors!

 

[Spudsbud]

Seems like a lot of weight and power for 4 bolts thru double skin aluminum.

thats what I was thinking. I'd tap 2 more bolts holes up top.
Granted theres a 1/2" welded plate too.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

No car jack! Lifting eye on top and Cherry Picker or Gantry Cain or Forklift.

At least that is how I work on my older 2 strokes, not sure on these new fancy motors!

meh...... a 2x6 under the skeg, 2 guys balancing the engine upright, one guy pull the bolts, and 1 more operate the tongue jack of the trailer to adjust the heights. one it a few times with mine. Works like a charm.

thats what I was thinking. I'd tap 2 more bolts holes up top.
Granted theres a 1/2" welded plate too.

Remember, these bolts are really only in Sheer. Very little rotational force applied to them.

 

[monkeyswrench]

@RiverDave , I think there is a reason all the toons have been played with. The average owner of a 6-800hp pontoon, had performance stuff long before the "family truckster". They got the pontoon because it checked off more boxes. Deep down, they still want the rocket ship. A pontoon, or a Doug Wright...both with 400's...one could use a little more playing with I guess.

 

[t&y]

Uhhhh... It's a pontoon Dave. It is also already far from bottom of the line in they style of boat. Just run it and enjoy it, unless it's all on someone else's dime... If that's the case, tweak the shit out of it until it brakes.

 

[mobldj]

Just order a pair of jack plates....that’s the beauty of outboards...you can change the setup by pushing a button.

i have a pair in the for sale section cheap

 

[LowRiver2]

So a twin 300 25’ other brand is running 68.
What is the WOT on this toon as it is set up now?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I went through this for a while. Played with props, want to pull the cats, tune the ecm etc. everyone’s answer was... Seems like a lot of wasted time, energy, effort, and money. If you want to go faster buy a different boat.

The only people that say that are the ones that want to sell you a new boat. spending $1000 to gain 5 MPH in a boat by optimizing what you have is a good trade off.

 

[DaveC]

Damn you RD. Now I have to go outside and look at my OB height on the toon

its just a toon but yore still right...

 

[BHC Vic]

The only people that say that are the ones that want to sell you a new boat. spending $1000 to gain 5 MPH in a boat by optimizing what you have is a good trade off.

That’s exactly my thoughts but you would be surprised how many votes against it there are.

 

[LowRiver2]

That’s exactly my thoughts but you would be surprised how many votes against it there are.

“Your money your choice”

 

[FlyByWire]

Read over your warranty paperwork, not sure for Avalon, but with mine (Manitou), the lifetime deck-down warranty is void the instant I put a jack plate on the boat.

 

[FROGMAN524]

That’s exactly my thoughts but you would be surprised how many votes against it there are.

Time for that 280W

 

[RiverDave]

I would loose the livewell pump and plumbing........at least 1 MPH right there.

good eye! Lol. But what gonna keep the hard liquor cold with the sidebar?

 

[mash on it]

That’s exactly my thoughts but you would be surprised how many votes against it there are.

Start with a wham-o plate and then onto different props. I was amazed at what 2FF could achieve with this method. Does your Cobra have thru transom exhaust?

Dan'l

 

[RiverDave]

So a twin 300 25’ other brand is running 68.
What is the WOT on this toon as it is set up now?

Haven’t really had a chance to go after a number but with five adults, three kids, three coolers 3/4 tank and both biminis up it ran 63.. I suspect it’s gonna run somewhere just past that number but it’s going to run out of prop with 19 revolutions..


I have What Avalon calls the 27’ version but it measures around 30’ before the outboards.. I parked next to a 34’ Magic in the slips this last weekend and his sponsons were about 8 inches past my toons with the motors being at the end of his swim step.. This thing is a large boat.

 

[RiverDave]

That’s exactly my thoughts but you would be surprised how many votes against it there are.

The mods you were talking about weren’t going to yield much gain and we’re going to hurt the resale of the boat considerably

 

[RiverDave]

The only people that say that are the ones that want to sell you a new boat. spending $1000 to gain 5 MPH in a boat by optimizing what you have is a good trade off.

It is usually about 1k per mph

 

[RiverDave]

meh...... a 2x6 under the skeg, 2 guys balancing the engine upright, one guy pull the bolts, and 1 more operate the tongue jack of the trailer to adjust the heights. one it a few times with mine. Works like a charm.

Remember, these bolts are really only in Sheer. Very little rotational force applied to them.

Maybe with the old school two strokes.. I don’t see people doing that with 400-450 motors

 

[RiverDave]

Just order a pair of jack plates....that’s the beauty of outboards...you can change the setup by pushing a button.

yes sir!! I have a few things I want to figure out before we do the jack plates.

 

[mash on it]

Maybe with the old school two strokes.. I don’t see people doing that with 400-450 motors

400's are 668 lbs, and 450's are 689 lbs.
I wouldn't try the skeg.
A wrecker would work nicely for sure.

Dan'l

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

It is usually about 1k per mph

I know! I gained 4MPH from a $300 prop change.

 

[rivermobster]

I noticed with my toon that when I finally raised my engine too high, it wasn’t that I had a lot of prop slip or lost bow lift, I actually had problems with aeration during turns. I’m interested to see what your experience is. Mine was just a single 250 on a 24’ triple toon. I also played with a couple props and the aeration didn’t go away, so I dropped it down a bolt hole, and it was much better.

I have this exact issue, even just from having it trimmed out! I have to bring the trim almost all the way in, to make any kind of turn.

Even when the water gets rough, I have to bring the trim way in, or it will blow the prop right out.

It's a toon for chriss sakes. I bought it to drink and enjoy the day on. Who gives a crap how fast it goes.

 

[farmo83]

Question.
I was going to do this 4 years ago on my Avalon toon.
I did go up a prop size and gained 2mph. But for the cost of the prop it wasn’t worth it
Raising the motor is something I still want to do.
what’s the best way to lift it? car jack under it?

A strong limb and a come-a-long will lift a 250hp. By no means was this a smart way to get the job done, but it poor folks have poor ways.

 

[PlanB]

The manager at the dealer where we bought our last toon thought I was crazy when I wanted to raise the motor. Well, I gained 7 mph just going up in motor height and I think I could probably get a little more going up a little more. A jack plate is definitely the way to go, but like mentioned above, it might void your warranty.

 

[gmnhra]

Haven’t really had a chance to go after a number but with five adults, three kids, three coolers 3/4 tank and both biminis up it ran 63.. I suspect it’s gonna run somewhere just past that number but it’s going to run out of prop with 19 revolutions..


I have What Avalon calls the 27’ version but it measures around 30’ before the outboards.. I parked next to a 34’ Magic in the slips this last weekend and his sponsons were about 8 inches past my toons with the motors being at the end of his swim step.. This thing is a large boat.

My "28" Berkshire with two 400r and 21 revolutions runs 66-67 mph. I see about 6000 rpm at wot..
I think 400R can go to 7000 so i am probably over propped...thought about hydro jack plates but 6 to 10 G just not worth the effort...

 

[WhatExit?]

Maybe a dumb question but why would a jack plate void a warranty (other than "because they can" and it's in the mfr's best interest to void warranties )

 

[PlanB]

Maybe a dumb question but why would a jack plate void a warranty (other than "because they can" and it's in the mfr's best interest to void warranties )

Maybe because it changes the leverage on the transom by moving the weight further back?

 

[LowRiver2]

As a non O/B guy, what is order of seeking more speed?

Props?
Jack plate?

Shortened drive shafts (if warranty was not a concern, or money, lol)
Or are the 400’s/450’s the best they can be out of the box ?

 

[RiverDave]

My "28" Berkshire with two 400r and 21 revolutions runs 66-67 mph. I see about 6000 rpm at wot..
I think 400R can go to 7000 so i am probably over propped...thought about hydro jack plates but 6 to 10 G just not worth the effort...

I’d be curious to see the motor heights and looks at the bottom of your boat vs mine.. The speeds sound about right. Is that light? Or is that with fuel and people?

 

[RiverDave]

As a non O/B guy, what is order of seeking more speed?

Props?
Jack plate?

Shortened drive shafts (if warranty was not a concern, or money, lol)
Or are the 400’s/450’s the best they can be out of the box ?

You’d start with jack plates or stand off boxes abd then dial in the props to suit..

The pontoons are a bit of a different animal because the weight loads change wildly from trip to trip. I will try to find what you can get out of it and then back it off to a setup that is good for general use.. the benefit of the jack plates is that is adjustable on the fly.. stand boxes you are stuck with a setup. I think the winning deal going to end up being a set of stand off boxes.. (well for what I’m doing anyways)

 

[PlanB]

As a non O/B guy, what is order of seeking more speed?

Props?
Jack plate?

Shortened drive shafts (if warranty was not a concern, or money, lol)
Or are the 400’s/450’s the best they can be out of the box ?

Prop shaft height makes a huge difference. I put jack plates on my 28 Skater and went from 109 mph to 117 mph without changing anything else.

 

[brgrcru]

I thought the entire deal with toons .you go enjoy
Your day with 25 people you hate . let them suck all your beer down, spit seeds out , get hot Cheetos all over the boat
But Now, you want it to go faster ?

 

[LowRiver2]

You’d start with jack plates or stand off boxes abd then dial in the props to suit..

The pontoons are a bit of a different animal because the weight loads change wildly from trip to trip. I will try to find what you can get out of it and then back it off to a setup that is good for general use.. the benefit of the jack plates is that is adjustable on the fly.. stand boxes you are stuck with a setup. I think the winning deal going to end up being a set of stand off boxes.. (well for what I’m doing anyways)

Given the fact that I think you may have access to a lot of props (), wouldn’t it be easy to try some props first to see what kind of gains ate possible in it’s current engine heights?

 

[185EZ]

My friend has twins on his trifecta with hydraulic jack plates.
He said once he found the sweet spot he hasn't messed with them.
As long as my lower plate is even with my center tube I think that's the best spot.
I think you need to watch out the back and see where the water is hitting your lower unit at speed and go from there.

 

[gmnhra]

I’d be curious to see the motor heights and looks at the bottom of your boat vs mine.. The speeds sound about right. Is that light? Or is that with fuel and people?

Davce
Boat is at in stitches for some bimini work
do a fly by and take a look

66 was full tanks no front bimini and two people..

 

[Christopher Lucero]

gosh, dave. this got me thinking... with so much wetted surface do pontoons really ever get an advantage with a prop in surface operation? and if the hull DID fly does kiting become hazardous? IDK, maybe there is very little wetted surface. ??

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

I thought the entire deal with toons .you go enjoy
Your day with 25 people you hate . let them suck all your beer down, spit seeds out , get hot Cheetos all over the boat
But Now, you want it to go faster ?

Possibly get the day to end faster?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Who gives a crap how fast it goes.

Every person that spent more than $50K on their floating couch.

 

[LowRiver2]

Every person that spent more than $50K on their floating couch.

Facts

 

[lakemadness]

meh...... a 2x6 under the skeg, 2 guys balancing the engine upright, one guy pull the bolts, and 1 more operate the tongue jack of the trailer to adjust the heights. one it a few times with mine. Works like a charm.

Remember, these bolts are really only in Sheer. Very little rotational force applied to them.

That sounds like a circus...