Boat Problem

[Wizard29]

A couple of weeks ago I went to fire the boat engines and suck some antifreeze into them for the winter. Right engine no problem.

Left engine buzzer comes on when the key is turned, starter works, but no fuel pump and presumably no ignition because it will not start or even try.

Jumped the fuel pump relay and pump is still good. Relay is not getting a signal to activate. It seems like something is stopping power from getting to where it needs to go.

Gear shifts are in neutral, lanyard switches are where they are supposed to be.

I suspect maybe a bad key switch, but here's an interesting thing that is unrelated to the key switch: Previously when I would turn the batteries on, something in the engine compartment would hum momentarily and stop. Not sure what was doing that but now when I turn the batteries on, I'm not hearing that hum, which makes me think there is a relay or something somewhere that is not doing what it's supposed to do.

Any thoughts/experience on this from those familiar with the more custom builds? It's not a standard Mercruiser setup. Some mercury racing stuff in there, but these are twin 1200s with Whipples by GT. Not sure what computers they use.

If this is as simple as a relay or something that energizes when the batteries are turned on, I'd sure love to locate it and replace it on my own instead of drag the whole boat back to CA so GT can go through it.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Disclaimer: I don't know boats...decent with other stuff though.

I'd lift the hatch, and have someone else switch the "working" motor to the run position while you're by the motor. If you can, locate the relays for that motor first. I put my my fingertips on them. When the key is switched to run, listen and try to feel which relays click.

Once that's done, check the same relays on the other motor. There may be 2 relays, an ecm and a fuel pump. To verify without a test light, I've swapped relays with known "good" ones. In your case, from the other motor. Just don't mix them up. Then try to test fire.

If you have a test light, check to see the power feeds to the relays are good. If no 12v, check the fuses or breakers. If they are good, and grounds are good, key in run and check signal from switch. No signal, head upstream of there. Switch or feed to switch.

 

[Jed-O]

Go to home depot and buy a "ringer" electric section. Get one that will test for both ac/dc aka 12volt and 120/240 turn the key on and follow the wiring at the 12volt selection until it stops making noise or light. If you think it's an electrical problem you will find it pretty quickly and inexpensive

 

[Shlbyntro]

first thought, bad lanyard kill switch. 2nd thought, bad keyswitch. 3rd thought, loose cannon plug at the engine. 4th thought starter fuse as well
in any event your looking at an issue with the purple wire not energizing from the sounds of it.

as far as the humm could literally be anything from a bilge pump to certain fuel valves and some engines electronics potentially.

 

[outboard_256]

If the buzzer comes on when you turn the key I wouldn't suspect the key switch. The key switch is activating something for the buzzer to come on. I would try and research what possible things the buzzer could mean.

 

[River Runnin]

My pennies worth.
1. lanyard switches are where they are supposed to be -- pull the lanyards and put back'
2. Got fuses??
3. My hum is the pressure build for the fuel injection
4. With all the above suggestions! Just trade it in fer a new boat!

 

[Apex svt]

Had this exact thing happen. Probably a long shot but pull the plugs/clamshells off the mefi box. Some how water seeped past the weather pack and caused signal to go haywire.

How water even got back there I still don’t know. But dried/brake cleaned/greased. Fixed.

 

[monkeyswrench]

first thought, bad lanyard kill switch. 2nd thought, bad keyswitch. 3rd thought, loose cannon plug at the engine. 4th thought starter fuse as well
in any event your looking at an issue with the purple wire not energizing from the sounds of it.

as far as the humm could literally be anything from a bilge pump to certain fuel valves and some engines electronics potentially.

You boat mechanics and your boat knowledge

What do you think this is, a boating website?

 

[Go-Fly]

You boat mechanics and your boat knowledge

What do you think this is, a boating website?

This is a forum about places on the river. Says so right in the name. Duh.

 

[Riverbottom]

Are they Merc. kill switches ? Was the cap left plugged on while stored ? I have had this problem twice where the little rubber center on the cap deteriorates and is not pushing the switch down far enough. Swap caps and see if any change.

 

[steamin rice]

Neutral safety switch? I know you said that the gear shifts are in neutral, but it might be worthwhile to move them a bit to ensure that it's not the safety switches giving a problem. I've had a couple of times where someone accidentally bumped a gearshift while parked, moving it just enough for the neutral safety switch to engage.

 

[Wizard29]

Lots of good suggestions. Some of this I have checked and some I have not. This is not likely breaker or fuse related because I did get it to work intermittently for a while a couple of weeks ago, but I tried it again yesterday and now it seems to be a more permanent problem.

If the buzzer comes on when you turn the key I wouldn't suspect the key switch. The key switch is activating something for the buzzer to come on.

My thought as well. The hum when I turn the batteries on (that doesn't happen any more) is independent of the key switch too.

Had this exact thing happen. Probably a long shot but pull the plugs/clamshells off the mefi box. Some how water seeped past the weather pack and caused signal to go haywire.

How water even got back there I still don’t know. But dried/brake cleaned/greased. Fixed.

By clamshells you mean the plugs that go into the computer? Looks like I have two wide ones with multiple wires. I have tried unplugging and plugging them back in multiple times, but maybe cleaning them could help.

Are they Merc. kill switches ? Was the cap left plugged on while stored ? I have had this problem twice where the little rubber center on the cap deteriorates and is not pushing the switch down far enough. Swap caps and see if any change.

Not sure if they are Merc, but they do have that little rubber plug in them. I tried pushing the switch in with my finger, but no effect. Might pull the switch out and jump over it to be sure.

 

[Wizard29]

Neutral safety switch? I know you said that the gear shifts are in neutral, but it might be worthwhile to move them a bit to ensure that it's not the safety switches giving a problem. I've had a couple of times where someone accidentally bumped a gearshift while parked, moving it just enough for the neutral safety switch to engage.

Tried that too. Don't the neutral safety switches usually prevent the starter from working though? My starter still turns the engine over. Just no fuel pump or ECM from what I can tell. Maybe I'll purposely put it in gear and see what happens.

 

[bonesfab]

So starter works. Voltage is present. Need a test light and start checking for power at the fuses and relays first. In this day and age anything is possible with the finest chinese shit forced upon us.

 

[steamin rice]

Tried that too. Don't the neutral safety switches usually prevent the starter from working though? My starter still turns the engine over. Just no fuel pump or ECM from what I can tell. Maybe I'll purposely put it in gear and see what happens.

Yes I think you are right - My neutral safety switches prevent the starter from turning. I just threw it out there as a simple thing to try, since the first time it happened to me I spent some time looking at other things before realizing it was an easy fix. Good luck with this one, hopefully you can get it resolved on your own.

 

[92562]

Guys, this is low hanging fruit!

Did you try a different prop?

 

[Apex svt]

Lots of good suggestions. Some of this I have checked and some I have not. This is not likely breaker or fuse related because I did get it to work intermittently for a while a couple of weeks ago, but I tried it again yesterday and now it seems to be a more permanent problem.

My thought as well. The hum when I turn the batteries on (that doesn't happen any more) is independent of the key switch too.


By clamshells you mean the plugs that go into the computer? Looks like I have two wide ones with multiple wires. I have tried unplugging and plugging them back in multiple times, but maybe cleaning them could help.


Not sure if they are Merc, but they do have that little rubber plug in them. I tried pushing the switch in with my finger, but no effect. Might pull the switch out and jump over it to be sure.

Correct, the two plugs. Two wide ones would be mefi 3/4 computer.

Dang, sounds like that isn’t it. Worth a shot to try and clean them up.

You said you jumped the relay and it worked but have you tried putting a new relay in? Pull one from the other motor or swap the ignition relay. Depending on the harness you should have 2-3 relays.

The Teague mefi 3/4 we run on our whipple setup is a 2-relay.

 

[outboard_256]

One thing you can do is swap parts between engines until the other engine doesn't start. Be labor intensive but cheap diag.

 

[Jimmyv]

Theres this thing called YouTube. It’s provides solutions to ALL problems.

Option 1, watch a YouTube video to determine and fix the problem. (Save $)
Option 2, make a YouTube video - sinking the boat for views (Make $)
Option 3, sink boat on YouTube and cross promote with the Diesel brothers ($$$)

 

[SBMech]

Engine needs 3 things to run. I will point out that the starting system is usually integrated in modern efi, so fixing a no crank situation might repair several other issues.

Ignition : (Spark) Pull a plug wire and see if you are getting spark at the plug(s) a single coil firing is enough to prove that is ok. (generally)

Fuel : If you jump the relay does it start? If so, you can rule out key/lanyard/neutral ssw. If only fires when relay is bypassed, then you have your start of where to look.

Compression : Mechanical ability of the engine to fire the fuel mixture and make power, a simple compression test is usually enough to rule it out.

Figure out what you are missing, then diagnose from there.

I don't know the exact specifics of your EFI system, but most will not turn on the fuel pumps unless seeing a crank/cam signal and the pump relay is controlled by the FI ECU dependent on that signal.

Some systems have the cam sensor in the distributor or use the hall effect switch in it as the cam signal.

If you only have COP Ignition you have a separate cam and crank sensor(s).

 

[RiverDave]

A couple of weeks ago I went to fire the boat engines and suck some antifreeze into them for the winter. Right engine no problem.

Left engine buzzer comes on when the key is turned, starter works, but no fuel pump and presumably no ignition because it will not start or even try.

Jumped the fuel pump relay and pump is still good. Relay is not getting a signal to activate. It seems like something is stopping power from getting to where it needs to go.

Gear shifts are in neutral, lanyard switches are where they are supposed to be.

I suspect maybe a bad key switch, but here's an interesting thing that is unrelated to the key switch: Previously when I would turn the batteries on, something in the engine compartment would hum momentarily and stop. Not sure what was doing that but now when I turn the batteries on, I'm not hearing that hum, which makes me think there is a relay or something somewhere that is not doing what it's supposed to do.

Any thoughts/experience on this from those familiar with the more custom builds? It's not a standard Mercruiser setup. Some mercury racing stuff in there, but these are twin 1200s with Whipples by GT. Not sure what computers they use.

If this is as simple as a relay or something that energizes when the batteries are turned on, I'd sure love to locate it and replace it on my own instead of drag the whole boat back to CA so GT can go through it.

I am wondering if the fuel pressure switch went bad?


Theres this thing called YouTube. It’s provides solutions to ALL problems.

Option 1, watch a YouTube video to determine and fix the problem. (Save $)
Option 2, make a YouTube video - sinking the boat for views (Make $)
Option 3, sink boat on YouTube and cross promote with the Diesel brothers ($$$)

You know that guy won a defamation / libel suit for that.

 

[Jimmyv]

I am wondering if the fuel pressure switch went bad?


Theres this thing called YouTube. It’s provides solutions to ALL problems.


You know that guy won a defamation / libel suit for that.

Hence my language is vague and ambiguous!

Honselty though, I’ve seen the videos. I don’t believe anyone would sink a boat with their family on it for likes.

Unlike the clown that solo jumped and ditched an airplane covered in go-pros for the views,
(not allegedly, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...caused-crash-record-faa-letter-says-rcna25316)

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

On TCM engines there is a master breaker at the rear of the engine, a red button. I don’t know what GT does but I would double check around the engine for anything similar.

 

[Heylam]

Yep, sounds like a breaker.

 

[Wizard29]

Correct, the two plugs. Two wide ones would be mefi 3/4 computer.

Dang, sounds like that isn’t it. Worth a shot to try and clean them up.

You said you jumped the relay and it worked but have you tried putting a new relay in? Pull one from the other motor or swap the ignition relay. Depending on the harness you should have 2-3 relays.

The Teague mefi 3/4 we run on our whipple setup is a 2-relay.

Yeah, I have new relays on order. Looks like there's one for the fuel pump and one for the EFI/computer/whatever it controls. I assume this is more or less the same 2 relay system you are talking about. When I jump the EFI relay, the fuel pump relay activates as well. Looks like the EFI relay isn't getting trigger voltage, but I will change it out when the replacements arrive and see what happens.

Definitely not a breaker or fuse. This was an intermittent problem a few weeks ago and I did get the engine to run so I could suck the antifreeze in, but now I can't get it to come back.

It didn't do this all season and I (thankfully) happened to notice the problem when trying to start it on the trailer for the antifreeze operation. Sure seems like something doesn't like the cold.

To me this all smells like a relay, but the two I know of don't seem to be getting trigger voltage.

 

[572ext]

Maybe the fuseable link at the starter if it has it like merc puts on it is a white block on the large. Battery post on the starter it’s to protect the ecm and accessories on the engine. Pretty much if it’s bad the only thing that works is cranking over.

 

[Wizard29]

Engine needs 3 things to run. I will point out that the starting system is usually integrated in modern efi, so fixing a no crank situation might repair several other issues.

Ignition : (Spark) Pull a plug wire and see if you are getting spark at the plug(s) a single coil firing is enough to prove that is ok. (generally)

Fuel : If you jump the relay does it start? If so, you can rule out key/lanyard/neutral ssw. If only fires when relay is bypassed, then you have your start of where to look.

Compression : Mechanical ability of the engine to fire the fuel mixture and make power, a simple compression test is usually enough to rule it out.

Figure out what you are missing, then diagnose from there.

I don't know the exact specifics of your EFI system, but most will not turn on the fuel pumps unless seeing a crank/cam signal and the pump relay is controlled by the FI ECU dependent on that signal.

Some systems have the cam sensor in the distributor or use the hall effect switch in it as the cam signal.

If you only have COP Ignition you have a separate cam and crank sensor(s).

So thinking more about this and getting ready to really start tearing shit apart the next time I'm up at the house, there appear to be two relays...one that controls the fuel pump and one that (I think) controls the ECM...I'll call that one the ECM relay unless that ends up not being accurate.

If I jump the ECM relay (I did) and the fuel pump then comes on (it did), that must mean the ECM is seeing everything it wants to see, right?

If I recall correctly, the wire going to the ECM relay is purple and does not appear to be receiving the necessary voltage to trigger the relay. My dilemma is to find why that is. So far I can't tell where that purple wire goes.

Sure wish I had a wiring diagram for this thing. That would make life a lot easier.

 

[Shlbyntro]

purple is ignition. it will go from your keyswitch to the lanyard switch then to the cannon plug to the ecm, then the ecm will have an outgoing purple wire that controls the ignition relay which is the one i believe you asre referring to

 

[Wizard29]

purple is ignition. it will go from your keyswitch to the lanyard switch then to the cannon plug to the ecm, then the ecm will have an outgoing purple wire that controls the ignition relay which is the one i believe you asre referring to

That's helpful. So it's still a possibility that the ECM is not seeing something it needs to see and isn't sending the trigger signal to the ignition relay.

I guess my next steps will be to replace the relays and then measure the lanyard switch to see if voltage is present on the output side. If yes, then I'll give the cannon plug a good cleaning and trace the wires to and from the ECM to check for any defects. If I still don't find any problems, then I guess I'm screwed and it'll be a trip to CA with that thing to visit GT so Gary can plug into the ECM and see why it doesn't want to cooperate.

 

[Shlbyntro]

confirm fuel, and spark or lack there of first. sounds like no spark to me by your descriptions tho......

then:
check that voltage in the purple wire is getting all the way back to the engine. if so, then make sure it is running through the cannon plug. then relays, then the ignition coil. (all with key on) if your engine has a Delco EST distributor, it is not uncommon for the magnetic pickup/trigger inside to go bad. they are relatively inexpensive.

sorry, I am not all that familiar with GT motors specifically but am just operating off general MEFI electrical configurations which tends to be mostly the same across most fronts.

 

[Wizard29]

confirm fuel, and spark or lack there of first. sounds like no spark to me by your descriptions tho......

then:
check that voltage in the purple wire is getting all the way back to the engine. if so, then make sure it is running through the cannon plug. then relays, then the ignition coil. (all with key on) if your engine has a Delco EST distributor, it is not uncommon for the magnetic pickup/trigger inside to go bad. they are relatively inexpensive.

sorry, I am not all that familiar with GT motors specifically but am just operating off general MEFI electrical configurations which tends to be mostly the same across most fronts.

Well, definitely no fuel because the pump isn't coming on and likely no spark because the ignition relay doesn't appear to be triggering either. Both of these are going to be caused by the same problem though.

Hoping it's the lanyard switch or a relay, but things are rarely that simple.

 

[Kbach]

Long shot here but have you checked to see if the key switch is supplying 12V to both legs when cranking?

I chased a hard starting issue on my old boat (carb not FI) for a while. Turns out the key switch was going bad and the ignition wasn’t getting 12V when cranking, only in the “key on” position. Sometimes it would start after I stopped cranking since the engine was still rotating fast enough and it would get 12V when it went back to key on position.

 

[SBMech]

Long shot here but have you checked to see if the key switch is supplying 12V to both legs when cranking?

I chased a hard starting issue on my old boat (carb not FI) for a while. Turns out the key switch was going bad and the ignition wasn’t getting 12V when cranking, only in the “key on” position. Sometimes it would start after I stopped cranking since the engine was still rotating fast enough and it would get 12V when it went back to key on position.

Things like this and a failing/missing signal from the "cam/dist" usually do a small "cough" when you release off the start position, like it tried to fire after you let off cranking.... If you can jump the relay and it starts, look at the "run" side of the inhibit system, since it would not fire coils/injectors if it did not have the right signals from the crank/cam to run.

 

[ToMorrow44]

Well, definitely no fuel because the pump isn't coming on and likely no spark because the ignition relay doesn't appear to be triggering either. Both of these are going to be caused by the same problem though.

Hoping it's the lanyard switch or a relay, but things are rarely that simple.

A friend had this exact problem, cranked but wouldn’t start. Chased it for months. Ended up being the kill switch. His he was able just to cycle on/off a few times and no problems after that. Maybe try jumping that real quick?

 

[Wizard29]

A friend had this exact problem, cranked but wouldn’t start. Chased it for months. Ended up being the kill switch. His he was able just to cycle on/off a few times and no problems after that. Maybe try jumping that real quick?

That is one of the first things I'll be trying when I head back up there and work on it again.

 

[4Waters]

You have 1 engine that runs, swap the fuel pump relays and see if it fires.


I didn't catch every post so sorry if it has already been mentioned/tried

 

[Wizard29]

Update: Took the boat to Savage Marine earlier this week.

Mark tested everything on the "engine side" (meaning after where the barrel plug connects) and everything is perfect. Even switched computers from the other engine to make sure it wasn't that.

Ended up replacing the key switches, addressing the lanyard switches, and lubing/ensuring the barrel plug was making full contact. It was likely not the key switches because the gauges are on the same terminal as the purple wire and they were powering up. Most likely the lanyard switch, but could have been a stubborn barrel connector as well.

So we don't have a "smoking gun" necessarily, but it seems to consistently work now. At least it's not a computer or something more serious.

Quick plug for Savage Marine. I was able to get the boat scheduled in advance for a particular day and Mark jumped right on it and knocked it out that same day. I towed it down from NV, so big plus not having to make two trips. Not a huge price tag for the work either. I will definitely use Savage again.

 

[HubbaHubbaLife]

Update: Took the boat to Savage Marine earlier this week.

Mark tested everything on the "engine side" (meaning after where the barrel plug connects) and everything is perfect. Even switched computers from the other engine to make sure it wasn't that.

Ended up replacing the key switches, addressing the lanyard switches, and lubing/ensuring the barrel plug was making full contact. It was likely not the key switches because the gauges are on the same terminal as the purple wire and they were powering up. Most likely the lanyard switch, but could have been a stubborn barrel connector as well.

So we don't have a "smoking gun" necessarily, but it seems to consistently work now. At least it's not a computer or something more serious.

Quick plug for Savage Marine. I was able to get the boat scheduled in advance for a particular day and Mark jumped right on it and knocked it out that same day. I towed it down from NV, so big plus not having to make two trips. Not a huge price tag for the work either. I will definitely use Savage again.

So I gotta know.... did my boy @Shlbyntro have it right?

 

[Mcob25rg]

Love to hear stories of great service. Setting expectations, then exceeding them. Savage obviously knows how to be successful by time in business

 

[Nordie]

One of my old boats suddenly shut off on me one day, just put of the blue, no indication of any issues. I was messing with the key switch even though it would crank. Started messing with the lanyard switch and jumped the wires together bypassing the switch and boom, fired right up. Atleast I was able to save the day boating.

It was kind of a crappy lanyard kill switch, so I swapped over to the Merc style and never looked back.