Hydraulic Steering Improvements

[Cole Brewed]

[GALLERY=][/GALLERY]

So I purchased my boat this summer and I have really enjoyed it. I do recognize a few systems that need improvement or correction.

The most important to me is the steering. I found a thread from 2015,
( https://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/hydraulic-steering.138616/ ) that is helpful, thought doesn’t entirely address my situation.

The boat, 1996 Cole Nighthawk, PFAFF power 650hp, Bravo 1 drive. Imco Dual external hydraulic steering rams, cable to valve assembly control.

I know the boat does 76mph on gps, with much more throttle to go. The first identifiable concern is when cruising and a mash to the pedal, the boat reacts very quickly with an abrupt move left or right, and also an abrupt lift of the pedal the same though opposite abrupt moves. People have mentioned torque thrust may cause this. By no means am I a specialist, but I think the seals in the external steering rams are internally leaking and may rebuild. I do not have an external power steering fluid leak anywhere.

I do not know if the valve assembly is a Saginaw or Brazilian type. I thought I read somewhere the was a change around 1994…..my boat is a 96.

My intent is to rebuild or replace the rams, and to convert to a complete hydraulic to helm system. With that said, my next concern is the space necessary for the hydraulic helm. My helm is pretty busy.

I will be having the throttle and forward/reverse cables replaced, and the speedo.

Lastly, I’m looking for a reputable, qualified shop references for the installation. I have only enquirer with one shop in Boulder NV. I am will to travel to Vegas area, along Colorado River, and So Cal.

Another area to address is the stereo system. Basically the components are there, I want to know they are set up and functioning correctly.

I appreciate and value RDP members input. Thanks in advance.

 

[Guest06]

Take a look in my 0rion thread in boat upgrades, i just did the upgrade this past June.
I contacted IMCO Nevada direct and they not only didn’t sell me a single thing i didn’t need they also did not try to sell me more than i would need. It was also a little cheaper going direct.

The full hydraulic helm took up less space than my cable steering did in total, as well once all the hoses where zip tied nice and tight it truly made for a real simple install. I spent maybe 6-8 hours total on the disassembly and reinstall but also did change a few other things at same time.

 

[Cole Brewed]

I found it the link, thank you

 

[cole_skier]

Mine was doing the same thing and we replaced the gimbal ring. It would dart had right when you got out off the throttle.


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[Cole Brewed]

Mine was doing the same thing and we replaced the gimbal ring. It would dart had right when you got out off the throttle.


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Good to know.

 

[RiverDave]

When the boat on the trailer is there any play on the Outdrive1? Can you move it with your hands?

 

[Cole Brewed]

When the boat on the trailer is there any play on the Outdrive1? Can you move it with your hands?

Yes

 

[Uncle Dave]

Grab the bottom of the skeg and pull up - how far does it move?

UD

 

[RiverDave]

Yes

I would wager it’s the gimble bearing

 

[Cole Brewed]

I will try that this afternoon. What should or shouldn’t happen. I don’t think I can move it up at all though. But I will try.

 

[Cole Brewed]

I would wager it’s the gimble bearing

I will have to look into that, thank you.

 

[RiverDave]

I will try that this afternoon. What should or shouldn’t happen. I don’t think I can move it up at all though. But I will try.

With hydraulic steering it should move it all. Even with cable staring things should not move much. when things get worn out with Cable it can be common to have an Inch or two of play.

 

[cole_skier]

Mine had slop up and down and side to side. Gimbal ring fixed it all. Not fun to replace but tightened everything up. Not the bearing but the ring

This is where the slop comes from. Steering pin gets lose and causes the movement

 

[guest hs]

Don't know if you saw my Black and Purple Super Hawk at the Cole Regatta but mine has full hydraulic duel ram steering.

 

[cole_skier]

Don't know if you saw my Black and Purple Super Hawk at the Cole Regatta but mine has full hydraulic duel ram steering.

I did and it is a beauty.... Your the mechanic, but wouldn't the gimbal ring wearing cause the slop? It did in mine

 

[Cole Brewed]

With hydraulic steering it should move it all. Even with cable staring things should move much. Call me when things get worn out with Cable it can be common to have an Inch or two of play.

Did you mean it should or shouldn’t move at all?

 

[Cole Brewed]

Don't know if you saw my Black and Purple Super Hawk at the Cole Regatta but mine has full hydraulic duel ram steering.

Any chance of a pic from behind the helm? 02HoWaRd26 had a great pic but his boat is different. Unfortunately I had work conflict and was not able to go to the Cole Regatta.

 

[Racey]

look where the tiller arm comes through the transom and connects to your internal steering rack, their is what i would consider for lack of a better term a tray beneath the tiller that is part of the gimbal casting, if it has signs of dried rusty water on it, your upper pin is leaking, which means it's worn out and needs to be replaced along with the seals and bushings.

Gimbal has to come off to do that job, which means motor out as well.

When you do it i would highly recommend ditching the entire internal steering system and switching to a full hydraulic helm like NAMBA says. It's way better, and takes all the strain off that upper pin.

 

[Cole Brewed]

look where the tiller arm comes through the transom and connects to your internal steering rack, their is what i would consider for lack of a better term a tray beneath the tiller that is part of the gimbal casting, if it has signs of dried rusty water on it, your upper pin is leaking, which means it's worn out and needs to be replaced along with the seals and bushings.

Gimbal has to come off to do that job, which means motor out as well.

When you do it i would highly recommend ditching the entire internal steering system and switching to a full hydraulic helm like NAMBA says. It's way better, and takes all the strain off that upper pin.

Thank you for this information

 

[ka0tyk]

When you do it i would highly recommend ditching the entire internal steering system and switching to a full hydraulic helm like NAMBA says. It's way better, and takes all the strain off that upper pin.

when you switch to full hyd does that mean the arm, steering rack, power steering pump, cooler, etc all go away and get replaced by hoses to the rams and up to the helm? Is it still power assist hydraulic with a pump?

 

[Racey]

when you switch to full hyd does that mean the arm, steering rack, power steering pump, cooler, etc all go away and get replaced by hoses to the rams and up to the helm? Is it still power assist hydraulic with a pump?

You have to leave the steering arm as it is the spacer that holds the pin in place, but you can cut it short if you want. Yes the rack goes away, the power steering pump and cooler stay, essentially the two lines from your pump/cooler now go up to the helm control unit, and then 2 additional lines come back to the rams on either side. 4 lines total run from the back of the boat to the helm (Pressure, Return, Turn Right, Turn Left)

 

[guest hs]

He will still use the P/S pump, the Tiller arm will still be there but nothing hooked up to it.

 

[guest hs]

The gimbal ring can be replaced without taking the engine out. Mercury makes a template plate with 2 plugs to install when complete and CP Performance makes a plate kit. If the engine is out of the boat that is the best way to do it but not a must.

 

[LOBOATOMY]

2 helm units just hit the OSO swap forum, one is new Char Lyn $350. Not mine just saw them there.

 

[RiverDave]

Did you mean it should or shouldn’t move at all?

Should not.. Sorry I was typing that on my phone. Good god.. reading my own post I need glasses and to stop using my phone to post on here! Siri can't hear for shit either apparently.

RD

 

[guest hs]

Should not.. Sorry I was typing that on my phone. Good god.. reading my own post I need glasses and to stop using my phone to post on here! Siri can't hear for shit either apparently.

RD

Ha I feel the same way I always post from my phone and shit comes out all turned around.

 

[Cole Brewed]

When the boat on the trailer is there any play on the Outdrive1? Can you move it with your hands?

I can freely move the drive by hand port to starboard and back effortlessly. This is why I suspect the internal seals on the rams have failed.

When I grasp the drive in a lowered position, I can lift it less than 1/8 inch overall.

 

[buck35]

I can freely move the drive by hand port to starboard and back effortlessly. This is why I suspect the internal seals on the rams have failed.

When I grasp the drive in a lowered position, I can lift it less than 1/8 inch overall.

A hydraulic leak in the ram seals won't let you move freely, but under pressure will bleed by with steady force .
I think the issue is either cable or gimbal.

 

[Racey]

The gimbal ring can be replaced without taking the engine out. Mercury makes a template plate with 2 plugs to install when complete and CP Performance makes a plate kit. If the engine is out of the boat that is the best way to do it but not a must.

I mean if you are into BDSM you can leave the motor in the boat

It's way easier with the motor out, and pulling the motor is easier than fighting access in almost all cases. Just my opinion though.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Whatever you do, stay away from the Merc plug kit! The finished product looks like shit and they are a pain in the ass to install, especially if you have a recessed transom. I use the JR Marine window kits that are sold by CP Marine on my customers boats and just did one on my Ultra.

If you have a 1/8" vertical play in the gimbal ring you should definitely address it. Generally if you're that far, you're going to need the gimbal ring, and tiller arm. And it's a good idea to do the swivel pin, seal, synthane washers, lube line, and bellows while you're there.

If you want to see what it looks like, I have pictures of it being performed in my most recent post on my Ultra resto in the resto forum. "Saved From a Trip to the Scrapyard"

 

[Cole Brewed]

All of the knowledge and experience coming back has been great. Maybe I’m off track with the rams leaking, maybe the Saginaw or Brazil valve is leaking. I really don’t know just putting it out there. Logically thinking using a backhoe bucket as a comparison, with two way rams (like the steering on my boat) the bucket won’t move without the motor running providing the pressure from the hydraulic pump. I am a dumb electrician not a hydraulic mechanic. I am not dismissing any opinions, just looking at my issue with a new perspective.

 

[Guest06]

With hydraulic steering it should move it all. Even with cable staring things should not move much. when things get worn out with Cable it can be common to have an Inch or two of play.

Could also be the delrin bushings on the rams. Don’t think it’d be quite that drastic but i did have to replace mine this year as well. Cheap like 10-15$ for four (enough for one ram)

 

[Cole Brewed]

Purchased hydraulic to helm yesterday, eliminates control valve completely. An industry specialist immediately identified rams are in excellent condition and do not need rebuild, however I probably will have them rebuilt and repolished.

I Most likely am going to start installation next week. All interior will be removed, starboard exhaust will be removed. Then out with the old and in with the new.

I cannot use my original steering wheel so I’m looking for suggestions on 6 hole mount in black and polish stainless, I also have to remove the trim up/down switch. I would like to install it on my forward reverse lever if possible. Definitely open to suggestions and previous experience with this.

I may also have to relocate ignition switch (really don’t want to but..) because I got the tilt helm and the lever may obstruct. Considering going to a push button start with a remote mounted master switch. Thoughts.......

 

[UltraLucky]

Did you repair the worn gamble ring issue? Looking forward to seeing a behind the dash picture after you get the helm installed.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Did you repair the worn gamble ring issue? Looking forward to seeing a behind the dash picture after you get the helm installed.

I have not yet confirmed the gimble ring worn. I will water test after upgrade is installed and how the boat reacts and go from there.

 

[Headless hula]

I have not yet confirmed the gimble ring worn. I will water test after upgrade is installed and how the boat reacts and go from there.

Either it wiggles or it dont. Grab the damned thing and see if theres movement up and down, side to side. You said the rams checked out.....

 

[cole_skier]

Either it wiggles or it dont. Grab the damned thing and see if theres movement up and down, side to side. You said the rams checked out.....

He is correct. Huge difference after I replaced the gimbal ring on our Cole


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[Ultra247]

You've got it backwards. You don't install the full hydraulic steering and then fix the gimbal. You fix the gimbal first and then you install the full hydraulic steering. I just had the gimbal ring replaced in my magic. I then installed full hydraulic steering to the helm. With the speeds that your boat runs, I would definitely go full hydraulic. I don't trust even hydraulic assist over 70. Shit starts happening fast at those speeds. THe behaviour that you are talking about with drastic turns with throttle change is probably a worn gimble ring. Definitely start by fixing that!!

 

[Guest06]

CP sells this one

 

[Cole Brewed]

Either it wiggles or it dont. Grab the damned thing and see if theres movement up and down, side to side. You said the rams checked out.....

He is correct. Huge difference after I replaced the gimbal ring on our Cole


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You've got it backwards. You don't install the full hydraulic steering and then fix the gimbal. You fix the gimbal first and then you install the full hydraulic steering. I just had the gimbal ring replaced in my magic. I then installed full hydraulic steering to the helm. With the speeds that your boat runs, I would definitely go full hydraulic. I don't trust even hydraulic assist over 70. Shit starts happening fast at those speeds. THe behaviour that you are talking about with drastic turns with throttle change is probably a worn gimble ring. Definitely start by fixing that!!

All, Thank you for pushing me on the gimble ring portion of the system. I will definitely look in to that as well. I will take video later in the day to best show the movement will on the trailer. The upgraded steering is going in before gimbal because I have it in my hands.

CP sells this one View attachment 736305

Thanks Peter, I will look that up. Was your trim switch wheel mounted or fixed mounted when you did your install? I’d like to put mine on my existing f/r lever if possible.

 

[Taboma]

Oh Boy, I'm going to follow the shit out of this thread !! I can't believe I didn't notice it when started back in Oct 18'. My gimbal and dual Imco rams are solid, but like you, I don't have full hydraulic and with my Pfaff 700, I could sure use it My trim buttons are built into the wheel, no cord. Not sure of the trim button solution with a foot throttle.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

If you wanted to keep your steering wheel, trim button etc, you could probably make or have made a 6 hole to 9 hole wheel adapter. Or simply redrill a large enough 6 hole adapter.

 

[Taboma]

If you wanted to keep your steering wheel, trim button etc, you could probably make or have made a 6 hole to 9 hole wheel adapter. Or simply redrill a large enough 6 hole adapter.

Yes but at least with the full hydraulic steering I've had in the past, there is no consistent wheel center, so the buttons could end up at 90 degrees (as an example).

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Yes but at least with the full hydraulic steering I've had in the past, there is no consistent wheel center, so the buttons could end up at 90 degrees (as an example).

Gude point.

 

[Taboma]

Gude point.

Don't they make something like a turn signal stalk that's positioned behind the wheel ?Like a much nicer version of this ---

 

[Cole Brewed]

I did find an adapter 9-6 bolt in black, to keep my original wheel. though I may still need to relocate trim switch due to the fact the hydraulic steering is like that of a fork lift and will continue to turn even though the range is maxed out left or right.

Oh Boy, I'm going to follow the shit out of this thread !! I can't believe I didn't notice it when started back in Oct 18'. My gimbal and dual Imco rams are solid, but like you, I don't have full hydraulic and with my Pfaff 700, I could sure use it My trim buttons are built into the wheel, no cord. Not sure of the trim button solution with a foot throttle.

I took a video or the drive prior to install and will take another once completed. It will definitely show movement due to original control failure. The ultimate test will be on the water. If the gimble infact is worn I will replace with hill stainless steel couple to equally rated components. For now this is a step in the direction I want to go.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Don't they make something like a turn signal stalk that's positioned behind the wheel ?Like a much nicer version of this ---

View attachment 736391

That would be great. Keep both hands on the wheel and adjust as needed

 

[buck35]

On the water is not really where you want to learn this at 70 plus miles an hour. It's really pretty simple to see if you have wore out parts in the gimbal, and damned dangerous to run that way. Just my 02 ¢.

 

[Taboma]

I did find an adapter 9-6 bolt in black, to keep my original wheel. though I may still need to relocate trim switch due to the fact the hydraulic steering is like that of a fork lift and will continue to turn even though the range is maxed out left or right.

I took a video or the drive prior to install and will take another once completely. It will definitely show movement due to failure or original control valve failure. The ultimate test will be on the water. If gimble infact is worn I will replace with hill stainless steel couple to equally rated components. For now this is a step in the direction I want to go.

Would seem the available solutions for helm mounted trim switches is limited. Foot switches might work for flat water, but for choppy, I dunno ? I see that CP Performance sells the Uflex helm mounted paddles, it appears they remain at 3 or 9 or both (Single or dual) as the helm rotates. Not exactly great looking and not cheap either.
Also it's possible they'll only work on the Uflex helms ? I know my current wheel mounted non-corded switches won't work for shit when the wheel gets clocked 90 degrees and my switches end up top and bottom
http://www.ultraflexgroup.com/en/catalogue/paddle-trim/08908e-1/904/paddle-trim.html?lang=2

 

[Cole Brewed]

I learned it at about 20-30 mph. I intend to drive as fast as the boat will go when conditions are appropriate and corrected. I know it will do well over 70. I agree safety is priority #1, though that’s how i learned something wasn’t right. That will be my best conclusive test. Wasn’t comfortable so now making corrections.