Question on PV Solar

[FROGMAN524]

I will do a real quick answer as i read the exchange and not sure you really want to understand.

1 - I personally dont really feel solar in AZ makes a huge amount of sense today, its close but not a homerun. My guess is you need a $40k PV system that will get you close to a 6 year return maybe, in reality I expect AZ to be closer to 7-8 but I really dont pay attention to the market as much as I should.
2 - Your choice of product was terrible. Let's use the most expensive, least useful product and prove that the ROI makes no sense, you are correct sir!
3 - Batteries to back up the load you are talking about really dont exist unless you are truly rational about the essential load panel, so forget the batteries. Go ahead and buy the generator.
4 - hideous is your perogative, you are quite rude, many of us work hard to install as cleanly as possible, but welcome to your opinion.
5 - no damage to your roof if done properly by a professional, again welcome to your opinion.
6 - fire, Im not even going to do the favor of arguing this point, you are plain wrong.

Point of solar, done right is to protect the homeowner from the utilities abilitity to ratchet up rates with no discussion. I have close to 5,000 homeowners who seriously disagree with your theory, that said go back to point 1, not sure it makes sense in AZ. I can say please call someone else should you decide to move forward.
Have a good day

I’ll have to disagree on a few things.

1. My buddy has a 3,600 foot house, 2 story, brand new. He spent $38,000 I think after tax credits to get a system that covers his bill almost completely though he has no RV garage but does have a pool and a Tesla charger. He has a decent interest rate, under 5%, term unknown, but his average bill for solar is same or more than his electric bill with APS was before he got it installed.

2. Installers broke about 15 Spanish roof tiles which they dragged their feet on getting replaced.

3. Clean install or not, black panels break up the roof lines and don’t match anything else on Spanish style house. That isn’t your fault, it’s just the nature of the beast.

4. Many fire departments instruct their guys not to ventilate the roof if not safe to do so when covered in panels and energized conduit. This clearly isn’t always a problem, such as at night.

5. Varying bills: I’ve been with APS through 3 residences over 12 years. My bills are almost always the same. RDP people wanting to save $4-600 a month on electric with a payback of, as you said, 7 years in some cases, also have $1,000 truck payments, $1,000 boat payments and $5-600 UTV payments. Doesn’t make sense to me, but then again, I have no payments outside of my mortgage and regular bills.

6. You didn’t mention cleaning or any maintenance, which we know for a fact is required, especially with the dust storms in the greater Phoenix area. Efficiency is key for payback.

Flame away.

 

[Xring01]

I’ll have to disagree on a few things.

1. My buddy has a 3,600 foot house, 2 story, brand new. He spent $38,000 I think after tax credits to get a system that covers his bill almost completely though he has no RV garage but does have a pool and a Tesla charger. He has a decent interest rate, under 5%, term unknown, but his average bill for solar is same or more than his electric bill with APS was before he got it installed.

2. Installers broke about 15 Spanish roof tiles which they dragged their feet on getting replaced.

3. Clean install or not, black panels break up the roof lines and don’t match anything else on Spanish style house. That isn’t your fault, it’s just the nature of the beast.

4. Many fire departments instruct their guys not to ventilate the roof if not safe to do so when covered in panels and energized conduit. This clearly isn’t always a problem, such as at night.

5. Varying bills: I’ve been with APS through 3 residences over 12 years. My bills are almost always the same. RDP people wanting to save $4-600 a month on electric with a payback of, as you said, 7 years in some cases, also have $1,000 truck payments, $1,000 boat payments and $5-600 UTV payments. Doesn’t make sense to me, but then again, I have no payments outside of my mortgage and regular bills.

6. You didn’t mention cleaning or any maintenance, which we know for a fact is required, especially with the dust storms in the greater Phoenix area. Efficiency is key for payback.

Flame away.

I dont have a dog in this fight, Frogman… but I get the feeling your not fully grasping Baysil’s point
On point
1… he confirmed what you thought. Solar may not make financial sense in AZ.
2. he stated to the effect, you have make sure you hiring professionals, not fly by night organizations
3. Personal opinion, solar is not for everyone, neither is a EV, Ford or Chevy, to each their own. But most guys agree big tits rule.
4. There are 100,000 of thousand solar systems installed thru out the US, and probably millions thru out the world, that are installed in meeting the fire codes. Again make sure your dealing with a pro who is installing it.
5. See point 1
6. Maintenance is part of buying most things today. See point 3.

 

[FROGMAN524]

I dont have a dog in this fight, Frogman… but I get the feeling your not fully grasping Baysil’s point
On point
1… he confirmed what you thought. Solar may not make financial sense in AZ.
2. he stated to the effect, you have make sure you hiring professionals, not fly by night organizations
3. Personal opinion, solar is not for everyone, neither is a EV, Ford or Chevy, to each their own. But most guys agree big tits rule.
4. There are 100,000 of thousand solar systems installed thru out the US, and probably millions thru out the world, that are installed in meeting the fire codes. Again make sure your dealing with a pro who is installing it.
5. See point 1
6. Maintenance is part of buying most things today. See point 3.

Agreed. I guess the main reason I’m asking what I’m asking is because it seems there’s much fervor around the subject and I expected it to be more life changing than it seems to be, though, I don’t live behind the iron curtain of California nor do I pay Southern California Edison either.

When you’re building a house, it gives you lots of time to think of all the possible things you can incorporate that may make life easier.

 

[Bowtiepower00]

I’ve run the math, and I don’t see it making sense in PHX- at least in my case. My super off peak rate is 3 cents kWh, off peak 5 cents, and on peak around 10 cents. This is with APS, it would be cheaper with SRP.

I have several friends and neighbors with solar, most paid 35-50k for their systems (after rebates/credits) and the ones who financed spend the same- or more overall after making their payment compared to electricity alone.

Those who bought outright have no payment, but figure $300 average monthly bill (which is a high average for us) without solar, and that’s 10+ years to break even under most circumstances.

Of those I know with solar, It seems to be a 50/50 split, between those who are happy they purchased solar, and those who say it was a waste of money.

 

[badgas]

I’ll have to disagree on a few things.

1. My buddy has a 3,600 foot house, 2 story, brand new. He spent $38,000 I think after tax credits to get a system that covers his bill almost completely though he has no RV garage but does have a pool and a Tesla charger. He has a decent interest rate, under 5%, term unknown, but his average bill for solar is same or more than his electric bill with APS was before he got it installed.

What he paid is irrelevant, What he paid per watt does matter. Some slimy solar sales guys will just make a system smaller if customers complain about the price. The system size must be adequate to cover the usage or you wont get the ROI. A guy like @BasilHayden will be honest and tell you that you need the right size system. He won't just grab a sale and then have a disatisfied customer telling his buddies that solar is a joke. Instead he will have his customers talking about how they have no electric bill.

I have a neighbor with a 3,700 sqft house and a Tesla Model Y. He had his whole roof redone so he could install a 10 panel system from Tesla. It's a 4K kWh system : ) I guarantee he is NOT going to be happy at the end of the year but hey it did not cost as much as my system that has 31 450w panels.

5. Varying bills: I’ve been with APS through 3 residences over 12 years. My bills are almost always the same. RDP people wanting to save $4-600 a month on electric with a payback of, as you said, 7 years in some cases, also have $1,000 truck payments, $1,000 boat payments and $5-600 UTV payments. Doesn’t make sense to me, but then again, I have no payments outside of my mortgage and regular bills.

The solar setup does not care if the owner has messed up personal finance habits, It still produces when the sun is up.

6. You didn’t mention cleaning or any maintenance, which we know for a fact is required, especially with the dust storms in the greater Phoenix area. Efficiency is key for payback.

A good installer will design a system that has a conservartive produciton estimate and will build it considering shading, potention dust etc.
I'm telling you there is WAY more than you think that goes into a good setup. The big box solar comapnies will just take your online estimate then have some hack subcontrator that was laying carpet in the morning up on your roof breaking tiles and place panels behind chimneys etc.

The reason you hear such negative news is that the industry is riddled with sharky uneducated sales people and that ends up producing disatisfied customers.

Just like any other area where you spend your money you need to do some research and gather referrals from people who are happy with their contractor.

 

[boatpi]

Why do batteries. Here in Vegas we have never lost power in 5 years, how about you. Just do the solar. I spent 35K, 25% IRS credit at that time, plus NV Energy 6% rebate. Just 7.5 years it is a push. My monthly invoice is $10.50 from NV.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Why do batteries. Here in Vegas we have never lost power in 5 years, how about you. Just do the solar. I spent 35K, 25% IRS credit at that time, plus NV Energy 6% rebate. Just 7.5 years it is a push. My monthly invoice is $10.50 from NV.

The only reason to do batteries is if the per kWh charge for the utility is high, and your net metering agreement is subpar. There are very few markets in the US and the batteries make sense currently.

 

[FROGMAN524]

What he paid is irrelevant, What he paid per watt does matter. Some slimy solar sales guys will just make a system smaller if customers complain about the price. The system size must be adequate to cover the usage or you wont get the ROI. A guy like @BasilHayden will be honest and tell you that you need the right size system. He won't just grab a sale and then have a disatisfied customer telling his buddies that solar is a joke. Instead he will have his customers talking about how they have no electric bill.

I have a neighbor with a 3,700 sqft house and a Tesla Model Y. He had his whole roof redone so he could install a 10 panel system from Tesla. It's a 4K kWh system : ) I guarantee he is NOT going to be happy at the end of the year but hey it did not cost as much as my system that has 31 450w panels.


The solar setup does not care if the owner has messed up personal finance habits, It still produces when the sun is up.


A good installer will design a system that has a conservartive produciton estimate and will build it considering shading, potention dust etc.
I'm telling you there is WAY more than you think that goes into a good setup. The big box solar comapnies will just take your online estimate then have some hack subcontrator that was laying carpet in the morning up on your roof breaking tiles and place panels behind chimneys etc.

The reason you hear such negative news is that the industry is riddled with sharky uneducated sales people and that ends up producing disatisfied customers.

Just like any other area where you spend your money you need to do some research and gather referrals from people who are happy with their contractor.

Only talk to happy customers, got it. Lol.

I’m sure there’s some good reason for PV, I just don’t get it. Maybe I’m the dumbest member of RDP, maybe not…

 

[badgas]

Only talk to happy customers, got it. Lol.

I’m sure there’s some good reason for PV, I just don’t get it. Maybe I’m the dumbest member of RDP, maybe not…

You are not dumb !

The dumb ones are those who just dive headlong into something without asking questions and doing research.

 

[steamin rice]

This is an interesting thread for me to read - To be honest I have not done a lot of research on solar in the Phoenix area so I don't have enough info to make a good decision on the payback. I have 2 close friends who live near me who have had solar installed on their houses. One did a long term (20 years?) lease on the system and the other outright purchased the system. They both are happy with their low electricity bills, however the sometimes neglect to factor in the cost of the solar system to get the low power bills.

I could be wrong, but I believe that APS needs to make a certain amount of revenue per household in order to make things work, and as such they will be increasing the basic fees to solar customers.

Also, one of my friends who had solar installed has been dealing with roof leaks, and had to have a large stucco repair done on the side of the house due to water getting into the wall of the house from the top and causing damage. The other one hasn't had any structural issues, but has to contend with large flocks of pigeons roosting under the solar panels on the roof. I realize that there are solutions for both of these issues, but it's just another consideration for me.

I think that eventually solar will be a good option for me, but right now I'm not convinced that the ROI is there for my house.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

I think that eventually solar will be a good option for me, but right now I'm not convinced that the ROI is there for my house.

ROI is going to be dictated by your tax liability, the utility rate and average increases in your area, the price you pay per watt for the system (knowing the averages helps here, and its good to get more than one quote), and finally the NEM agreement terms. I cannot tell you how many people I have spoken to over the years that chose to wait then shot themselves in the foot when net metering terms shifted. The OG solar installs in HI had a 2-4 year ROI on average, now thats like 8-10 because of the NEM changes over the years.

People also tend to say "oh it will get cheaper," well it did for a few years, now it increased over the whole covid supply chain debacle. Equipment has went up 2 years straight and is just now kind of stabilizing and in some cases starting to slightly drop....but thats few and far between as a lot of things are still supply constrained. If you are in APS, Unisource etc I would check into it, if you have SRP, ED3 etc...I wouldn't but thats just my opinion (however I know the NEM agreements quite well out here).

 

[Taboma]

ROI is going to be dictated by your tax liability, the utility rate and average increases in your area, the price you pay per watt for the system (knowing the averages helps here, and its good to get more than one quote), and finally the NEM agreement terms. I cannot tell you how many people I have spoken to over the years that chose to wait then shot themselves in the foot when net metering terms shifted. The OG solar installs in HI had a 2-4 year ROI on average, now thats like 8-10 because of the NEM changes over the years.

People also tend to say "oh it will get cheaper," well it did for a few years, now it increased over the whole covid supply chain debacle. Equipment has went up 2 years straight and is just now kind of stabilizing and in some cases starting to slightly drop....but thats few and far between as a lot of things are still supply constrained. If you are in APS, Unisource etc I would check into it, if you have SRP, ED3 etc...I wouldn't but thats just my opinion (however I know the NEM agreements quite well out here).

Had always read great things about Panasonic panels. I understand they're having them made 3rd party now. Do you know whom and where ?
I'm led to assume they're still highly rated, as I believe that what Palomar is still using.
How about Certainteed, not their shingle style, but conventional panels. I believe they're made in Vietnam.
Had a neighbor inquire.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Had always read great things about Panasonic panels. I understand they're having them made 3rd party now. Do you know whom and where ?
I'm led to assume they're still highly rated, as I believe that what Palomar is still using.
How about Certainteed, not their shingle style, but conventional panels. I believe they're made in Vietnam.
Had a neighbor inquire.

I think that started back in 2021, but I'd have to pull the data. Panasonic uses HIT tech and half cells which improve efficiency and reduce heat loss. Panasonic is a top tier panel, and is one of two brands I directly have owned. I would have no issue using them, and our company sells a lot of them. There are a handful of brands at the top of the game, and Panasonic is one of them in terms of quality and efficiency.

I don't have a lot of experience with the certainteed panels, I know of them they are rated highly for most models.

A lot of panels are made in Vietnam, SE Asia etc. US Built panels are available, but will carry a different cost delta. There is a big uptick of panel manufacturers establishing lines in the US in part due to the IRA, and some other import/labor laws.

 

[69 1/2]

Lets say you live in Phoenix, in a house with an average electric bill of $400/month over the course of the year. That means you’re spending less than $5,000 a year on your electric utility but to get a solar system with battery backup that’s going to cover your entire bill, you’ld be spending anywhere from $50,000 - $100,000 or more to cover that bill and give yourself enough backup for a few days. The break even, at zero percent interest financing, is anywhere from 10-25 years. At that point, you now have obsolete panels and batteries that aren’t worth a shit. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay your bill and spend less than $15,000 for a fully installed LP backup generator?

Also, almost forgot, solar panels are unsightly and hideous and damage to your roof may occur during install.

Additionally, some fire departments won’t spray your roof down with all of that DC power ready to fry the hose handler.

Tell me again, what is the point of solar? Sorry to all the solar salesman here.

I’m in Phoenix and have APS for a provider. Four year old home 3,320 square fpot single story ranch with a pool. I’ve never hit $300 in my worst month. Budget billing is $162. Maybe buy some insulation and LED lights? I’m scratching my head figuring how you get an electric bill up to $400 on APS.

 

[BasilHayden]

I’m in Phoenix and have APS for a provider. Four year old home 3,320 square fpot single story ranch with a pool. I’ve never hit $300 in my worst month. Budget billing is $162. Maybe buy some insulation and LED lights? I’m scratching my head figuring how you get an electric bill up to $400 on APS.

This is where in my opinion solar is not for you at those rates of usage.

 

[BasilHayden]

Had always read great things about Panasonic panels. I understand they're having them made 3rd party now. Do you know whom and where ?
I'm led to assume they're still highly rated, as I believe that what Palomar is still using.
How about Certainteed, not their shingle style, but conventional panels. I believe they're made in Vietnam.
Had a neighbor inquire.

Panasonic panels are currently manufactured by REC using Panasonics design and patents. FYI, the REC panels are the exact same panel just badged as REC. We believe the strength of the parent company and their warranty makes them extremely valuable as a part of your system.

 

[Taboma]

I think that started back in 2021, but I'd have to pull the data. Panasonic uses HIT tech and half cells which improve efficiency and reduce heat loss. Panasonic is a top tier panel, and is one of two brands I directly have owned. I would have no issue using them, and our company sells a lot of them. There are a handful of brands at the top of the game, and Panasonic is one of them in terms of quality and efficiency.

I don't have a lot of experience with the certainteed panels, I know of them they are rated highly for most models.

A lot of panels are made in Vietnam, SE Asia etc. US Built panels are available, but will carry a different cost delta. There is a big uptick of panel manufacturers establishing lines in the US in part due to the IRA, and some other import/labor laws.

Thank you

 

[Taboma]

Panasonic panels are currently manufactured by REC using Panasonics design and patents. FYI, the REC panels are the exact same panel just badged as REC. We believe the strength of the parent company and their warranty makes them extremely valuable as a part of your system.

Thank you Andy, were your ears perhaps tingling ?
Joking, I actually asked that question because a friend whom I recommended your company to is now calling me and emailing me quotes he received. Yours of course being one of them

 

[FROGMAN524]

Got another quote from a reputable local PV company. Let me know your thoughts. Panels are Tier 1, 405W black on black with Enphase inverters. They’re telling me payment would be like $310 at 3.99 for 25 years. This would be less than my bill of $400-700 a month depending on time of year.

 

[Good Stuff]

Got another quote from a reputable local PV company. Let me know your thoughts. Panels are Tier 1, 405W black on black with Enphase inverters. They’re telling me payment would be like $310 at 3.99 for 25 years. This would be less than my bill of $400-700 a month depending on time of year.
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Late to this party since it just popped in the “Recent” feed.

We bought our house with an existing lease so I really dug into it. 25 year total lease assumed at year 22 on a 7.5Kw Enphase system. $180 per month with 2% annual bump to offset a $400+ electric bill. Did some research on it and it seemed like a no brainer so we went with it since ultimately we were buying the house not just for the solar and the solar wasn’t a bad deal. Even with the escalation built into the lease I figured my electric costs would increase more than 2% per year in CA. Fast forward 7 years and solar is still saving us a good chunk of change but the True-Up bill is projected to be $1000+ by my current projections along with increased production from longer days. The problem is that even with the original net metering plan from SoCal Edison they only give me $0.09 per Kw on the overage and Charge $0.32 when I take power from the grid. Got a quote from an installer but they wanted to add a second system in addition to my existing one. Talked to another installer that told me since I had Enphase with inverters at each panel I could expand my system for $5-7k if I just buy out the current lease at the current value and should be cheaper and qualify for the solar purchase rebates. To summarize I think the Enphase system is the way to go because you can expand it or swap out portions with better panels as it ages without needing a new inverter to manage the system. I will most likely be spending some time in the next few weeks negotiating a buy out of our current lease at current value and then add on some panels and batteries to offset current costs and hopefully achieve a lifetime negative bill. The $0.21 per Kw difference on stored vs sold and repurchased power alone will make a big difference for me in SoCal. If NG prices weren’t so volatile here in CA the generator wouldn’t be a bad option in case of outage vs the batteries if backup power was my only concern. Also there is a sweet spot in the solar financing where you can maximize your tax break ( I think it’s 20 years and up) but there is no prepayment penalty and the interest is annual so you could save a chunk by financing for 20 years and paying it off after receiving the rebate if you had the money to do so. Again #CaliforniaSux and AZ could be a different scenario.

 

[HTTP404]

Got another quote from a reputable local PV company. Let me know your thoughts. Panels are Tier 1, 405W black on black with Enphase inverters. They’re telling me payment would be like $310 at 3.99 for 25 years. This would be less than my bill of $400-700 a month depending on time of year.
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I'm no expert but that seems nuts. 25yr payoff?

 

[FROGMAN524]

I'm no expert but that seems nuts. 25yr payoff?

I’m reading that’s typical because it wouldn’t make sense if your payment was larger than your electric bill.

 

[DRYHEAT]

I didn’t read the whole contract, but did there include cleaning and maintenance of the solar panels every year? Just a thought.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Got another quote from a reputable local PV company. Let me know your thoughts. Panels are Tier 1, 405W black on black with Enphase inverters. They’re telling me payment would be like $310 at 3.99 for 25 years. This would be less than my bill of $400-700 a month depending on time of year.
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Service finance….

 

[FROGMAN524]

Service finance….

Please opine

 

[FROGMAN524]

Under contract on a 38.2KW AC PV system for the house. It’s going to produce 24.3KW DC which is 38.2KW AC I’m told.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Under contract on a 38.2KW AC PV system for the house. It’s going to produce 24.3KW DC which is 38.2KW AC I’m told.

What did you pay per watt?

 

[Ace in the Hole]

Please opine

Sorry that I missed this... Service finance is exiting the solar industry..its no secret. They also base pricing on risk points. They would not be first choice for a lender. If that's who you used..you probably paid between 20-30% of the deal for that loan.

 

[FROGMAN524]

What did you pay per watt?

$2.52/watt

 

[Ace in the Hole]

$2.52/watt

If that is before tax credit you got a really solid price.

 

[FROGMAN524]

If that is before tax credit you got a really solid price.

Yep that was cash price before tax credit

 

[Taboma]

Under contract on a 38.2KW AC PV system for the house. It’s going to produce 24.3KW DC which is 38.2KW AC I’m told.

I've never heard of a system netting more AC output from the invertor(s) than is being produced as DC, I'm only aware of that being the opposite case.

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

$2.52/watt

That's a really good deal.

 

[mesquito_creek]

I've never heard of a system netting more AC output from the invertor(s) than is being produced as DC, I'm only aware of that being the opposite case.

I thought the same thing. My guess (purely a guess) is that what is being sold is something like a 24.3 of pv array (dc) is going to net him 38kw (of ac) a day? But otherwise I have no idea… last I checked a watt was a watt no matter how to conjure it up. There is some small loss inverting either direction but nothing like 38 to 24….

 

[Taboma]

I thought the same thing. My guess (purely a guess) is that what is being sold is something like a 24.3 of pv array (dc) is going to net him 38kw (of ac) a day? But otherwise I have no idea… last I checked a watt was a watt no matter how to conjure it up. There is some small loss inverting either direction but nothing like 38 to 24….

Logical conclusion, not sure how that affects his price/watt calc ?

 

[Ace in the Hole]

I've never heard of a system netting more AC output from the invertor(s) than is being produced as DC, I'm only aware of that being the opposite case.

Yea something is off there. There’s a Calculator for it, and they’re also in most jurisdictions legally required to disclose the ratings AC and DC as well as a production range

I thought the same thing. My guess (purely a guess) is that what is being sold is something like a 24.3 of pv array (dc) is going to net him 38kw (of ac) a day? But otherwise I have no idea… last I checked a watt was a watt no matter how to conjure it up. There is some small loss inverting either direction but nothing like 38 to 24….

That system size where he is located should produce around 33,000 kWh per year.

 

[Orange Juice]

What you are not adding in is the price of power is going to go up over the next 20 years.
Goverment is forcing ALL electric, supply and demand will go up as well as the price. Getting solar today will lock in the price over that time.

Price of parts & labor, availability of a qualified service technician in the future?
Im too lazy to get up on my roof with a hose broom, and wash my own solar panels every week/month.

I also don’t see the efficiency in having an individual power generating plant on the roof of the average single family home. The trade offs are not worth it.

I also like trees in my neighborhood.

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

Price of parts & labor, availability of a qualified service technician in the future?
Im too lazy to get up on my roof with a hose broom, and wash my own solar panels every week/month.

I also don’t see the efficiency in having an individual power generating plant on the roof of the average single family home. The trade offs are not worth it.

I also like trees in my neighborhood.

We have a solar cleaning service come out every 6 months. $150 and they also did a critter guard for us.

 

[FROGMAN524]

I've never heard of a system netting more AC output from the invertor(s) than is being produced as DC, I'm only aware of that being the opposite case.

That’s according to the 3 solar companies I talked to. Could be wrong but I’m usually not.

 

[Taboma]

Price of parts & labor, availability of a qualified service technician in the future?
Im too lazy to get up on my roof with a hose broom, and wash my own solar panels every week/month.

I also don’t see the efficiency in having an individual power generating plant on the roof of the average single family home. The trade offs are not worth it.

I also like trees in my neighborhood.

We had ours installed when we did the post-fire rebuild in 2010. Inland San Diego county, so it gets both warm and cool weather wise.
We don't have natural gas, only a propane tank. 3600 SF home, 100% electric. We've got a small-modest 5KW net system and two heat pumps for HVAC. Because when we installed our solar SDG&E was still offering substantial rebates, they were limiting the system sizes based on your justifying calcs, so at that time we couldn't go larger and it's obvious, it wasn't necessary.
We also installed solar water heating to augment the otherwise electric..

The most we've paid for an entire year at 'Net True Up' time, has been only twice in those 13 years, neither of those annual bills totaling over $ 60.00.
I have the panels washed ONCE a year when I have a guy wash the outsides of our windows, because several of those can only be accessed from the roof and I'm too damned old to be doing roofs. I've never set foot on our roof. In the winters, the rains seem to wash the dust off. I've never noted much output difference, maybe a couple of percent max, after an entire year, I was actually expecting more.

Yup, we like trees too, still have plenty, just avoided tall growers on the south side, but otherwise there's plenty. An entire small avocado and orange grove full to be more precise.
So yes, the rebates are gone, but in truth, the price of the system components have dropped substantially from 2010, so net cost is not all that different.

Doesn't mean it's right for you, but I can't imagine not having it.

 

[Taboma]

That’s according to the 3 solar companies I talked to. Could be wrong but I’m usually not.

View attachment 1213404

Good on you, tell you what --- just for giggles, Google --- Solar System Inverter losses

 

[hallett21]

That’s according to the 3 solar companies I talked to. Could be wrong but I’m usually not.

View attachment 1213404

Watts are watts. You can’t create them from thin air.

Not to mention like @Taboma mentioned there are losses through the inverters.

 

[mesquito_creek]

Yea something is off there. There’s a Calculator for it, and they’re also in most jurisdictions legally required to disclose the ratings AC and DC as well as a production range


That system size where he is located should produce around 33,000 kWh per year.

Where the decimal point lands matters!... makes sense now....

 

[FROGMAN524]

Good on you, tell you what --- just for giggles, Google --- Solar System Inverter losses

LOL. Come on man, I'm just kidding!

This was from SunPower who I did not sign with

 

[FROGMAN524]

This is who I did sign with

 

[mesquito_creek]

That’s according to the 3 solar companies I talked to. Could be wrong but I’m usually not.

This is just a simple case of everyone can be right at the same time, because we are not talking the same language.

PV Arrays produce electricity in watts, specifically DC watts. That is your purest production numbers. You simply miss placed the decimal or spoke to generically when you stated it would produce "38.2KW", its a factor of 1000 low. As per your last post with the spec. Your system will to 43534 kwh annually or divide that by 365 days a year, which is appox 120kw daily.... OR 5 times the size or your array.

 

[fishing fool]

Your monthly bill IS going to go up in the next few years. My bill will stay the same unless I use more then I generate.
I too love trees but living in havasu there are not a lot of trees around

Price of parts & labor, availability of a qualified service technician in the future?
Im too lazy to get up on my roof with a hose broom, and wash my own solar panels every week/month.

I also don’t see the efficiency in having an individual power generating plant on the roof of the average single family home. The trade offs are not worth it.

I also like trees in my neighborhood.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Took months for APS approval and now waiting 2-3 weeks for county approval. Parts have been ordered.