Why I don’t like lithium batteries

[RitcheyRch]

I too think the drill batteries are safe for the same reason but figure better safe than sorry and will get one of these bags.

While that is a good idea, the low charge rate of drill batteries means the likelihood of you having a problem with them is very very low.

 

[LowRiver2]

I work in the LIPo battery market. There are several composition of batteries out there. Long story short you have batteries designed to pump out amps and some design to slow that down and give amp hours.

Cell phones for ex are designed to give out amp hours for long lasting use. Same with trailer batteries. Power tool batteries jump up a little bit and give more juice to run the tool but still provide a level of long use time. These above are fairly stable batteries.

Moving into car batteries such as Tesla they are providing more amps to push a heavy car very fast. But Tesla has a world class BMS battery management system to control output and charge input. There are several safety systems for Both sides in a Tesla.

Now Onto rc car batteries. These can be very dangerous because there is little to no regulation on output and input with exception to the user. Using a battery not designed for the output your demanding out of it is very bad for the battery and is how most batteries go bad and get destroyed. Also quick charging at a high amp rate is very bad too.

Lipo is the wave of the future. It’s power vs weight and price cannot be matched with any other battery tech right now.

@RiverDave what batteries were you using? What is the “C” rating and what charger and how many amps were they charged for?

While I’m sure Tesla tries to get safe batteries , watch that video with the cracked Tesla battery burning and spitting sparks at first responders.

Lipo reacts with air and water similar to white phosphorus, which is really a bad day when WP goes off.
Hoping they figure out a built in safety or stronger battery box to keep the battery from breaking open.

 

[LowRiver2]

There’s a video out there alleging battery powered cars got doused with salt water on a ferry and burned over 20 vehicles on the ferry.
haven’t read the back story to it yet.

 

[Bpracing1127]

That is a not normal condition. Agreed they need a stronger battery case. But the fire didn’t erupt from normal use

 

[RiverDave]

That is a not normal condition. Agreed they need a stronger battery case. But the fire didn’t erupt from normal use

brand new RC car I’ve only had it three days. Drove it once.

 

[mesquito_creek]

I work in the LIPo battery market. There are several composition of batteries out there. Long story short you have batteries designed to pump out amps and some design to slow that down and give amp hours.

Cell phones for ex are designed to give out amp hours for long lasting use. Same with trailer batteries. Power tool batteries jump up a little bit and give more juice to run the tool but still provide a level of long use time. These above are fairly stable batteries.

Moving into car batteries such as Tesla they are providing more amps to push a heavy car very fast. But Tesla has a world class BMS battery management system to control output and charge input. There are several safety systems for Both sides in a Tesla.

Now Onto rc car batteries. These can be very dangerous because there is little to no regulation on output and input with exception to the user. Using a battery not designed for the output your demanding out of it is very bad for the battery and is how most batteries go bad and get destroyed. Also quick charging at a high amp rate is very bad too.

Lipo is the wave of the future. It’s power vs weight and price cannot be matched with any other battery tech right now.

@RiverDave what batteries were you using? What is the “C” rating and what charger and how many amps were they charged for?

What do you think about all of the China made E-Bike Lithium Batteries? Model HH36-14M Capacity 36v 13Ah?.... Are these decent with IO? There isn't much of an alternative battery in this application without going to the tesla based cells that I am aware of.

 

[River Runnin]

Glad you caught it! .... But aren't them batteries well marked In Chinese! .. Not to leave plugged in?

 

[2Driver]

Practice bail out through your emergency window.

And be sure to video that for us Dillagaf.

 

[RiverDave]

Glad you caught it! .... But aren't them batteries well marked In Chinese! .. Not to leave plugged in?

All I caught was some smoldering embers when I came back in the garage.. lol.

 

[Wheeler]

By the way this is all lipo batteries.. they are inherently unstable. a lot of guys out here were actually keeping them in their refrigerators just in case they went off. Lol

 

[Tank]

Dude, that is CRAZY! Always hear of this but have never known anyone that it's happened to. I'm always fearful of this. I charge the kids cars (and mine ) LIpo batteries in the car. I never remove them.

Nice Lunchbox on the wall BTW

 

[Waffles]

That is a not normal condition. Agreed they need a stronger battery case. But the fire didn’t erupt from normal use

Extreme discharge? Over discharge? Damaged cells if running soft cases?

I always keep mine within storage thresholds and only buy hardcase batteries.

 

[LowRiver2]

brand new RC car I’ve only had it three days. Drove it once.

I think he was replying to the Tesla crash/fire in Beverly Hills

I see Tesla’s everyday on freeways in LA at 70mph and more. I remember that video and feel bad if the drivers crash at those speeds.
I can pull a guy out of a conventional fire , lipo Chen fire, not so much.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Dude, that is CRAZY! Always hear of this but have never known anyone that it's happened to. I'm always fearful of this. I charge the kids cars (and mine ) LIpo batteries in the car. I never remove them.

Nice Lunchbox on the wall BTW

Pull them from the car and charge them in a charging bag or a box.

 

[Tank]

Pull them from the car and charge them in a charging bag or a box.

Yeah, I need to.

 

[RiverDave]

Pull them from the car and charge them in a charging bag or a box.

I’ll be using some sort of fire protection in the future. Like others have said I have heard of it but never had one actually pop before..


Also this was the first time I have ever left one unattended and it was for 15-20 minutes and that was the time it decided to pop. Lol

 

[DILLIGAF]

And be sure to video that for us Dillagaf.

honestly i would be bailing out thru the front door or back door or back windows if necessary. The front window is right next to me and the fire would start below me. YIKES AGAIN!

 

[77charger]

I’ve always charged my lipos slow and do a balance charge. Also look for battery pack swelling.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

honestly i would be bailing out thru the front door or back door or back windows if necessary. The front window is right next to me and the fire would start below me. YIKES AGAIN!

That solar system charges slooow. Very little risk.

 

[DILLIGAF]

wow! Thats crazy.

 

[DILLIGAF]

That solar system charges slooow. Very little risk.

i also charge occasionally with the genset as well when I need AC on for the pups and i am gone for a while

 

[EmpirE231]

crazy...

does this happen in power tool batteries? those are lithium ion... and mine sit on the dewalt chargers for weeks at a time sometime if I forget them.

what about RV batteries?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

crazy...

does this happen in power tool batteries? those are lithium ion... and mine sit on the dewalt chargers for weeks at a time sometime if I forget them.

what about RV batteries?

Not really. The charge rates are too low. This generally happens when you are pumping a lot of power in or pulling a lot of current out.

 

[Tank]

I’ve always charged my lipos slow and do a balance charge. Also look for battery pack swelling.

Question. When balancing, do you only connect the balance connector to the charger or do you connect the main Lipo battery connectors to the charger as well? IF you connect the main charging cords to the charger AND the balance connector then hit charge, will it automatically balance your battery while charging or does it have to be a separate balance only "charge".

To make matters worse for me, I rarely if ever have balanced.

 

[RiverDave]

Not really. The charge rates are too low. This generally happens when you are pumping a lot of power in or pulling a lot of current out.

s if they are old as well.

min this particular case I’m not sure what happened.. I had some issues wkth it when I originally hooked it up to the charger when I first bought it.. but it went away.

I had the charger on smart charge and I’m thinking the original issue came back and it got a low voltage reading and overcharged it to pop

 

[rivermobster]

Not really. The charge rates are too low. This generally happens when you are pumping a lot of power in or pulling a lot of current out.

I was taught to...

Leave RC car batteries on a load when not in use: I made a connector for the battery with a bulb on the other end. If the battery isn't in use, or on a charger, it's always plugged into the bulb.

Always monitor a battery being charged: I have a charger with two ports for volt meter probes. I sit looking at it while it charges. Once the voltage peeks, and starts to drop off just a Tiny bit, it comes off the charger instantly, and goes right into the car/truck.

These two methods have always worked for me.

Scary shit Dave. Coulda been So much worse!!!

 

[lbhsbz]

I was taught to...

Leave RC car batteries on a load when not in use: I made a connector for the battery with a bulb on the other end. If the battery isn't in use, or on a charger, it's always plugged into the bulb.

Always monitor a battery being charged: I have a charger with two ports for volt meter probes. I sit looking at it while it charges. Once the voltage peeks, and starts to drop off just a Tiny bit, it comes off the charger instantly, and goes right into the car/truck.

These two methods have always worked for me.

Scary shit Dave. Coulda been So much worse!!!

Lipo batteries like to be stored at a 50% charge. If you connect a load and let it discharge past a certain point, they will never recover. That's why most lithium batteries have charge/discharge monitoring systems (in the speed control/charger or in the battery pack itself) to make sure this stuff doesn't happen.


On R/C car chargers, the operator can control the charge parameters, which can sometimes cause problems.

 

[rivermobster]

Lipo batteries like to be stored at a 50% charge. If you connect a load and let it discharge past a certain point, they will never recover. That's why most lithium batteries have charge/discharge monitoring systems (in the speed control/charger or in the battery pack itself) to make sure this stuff doesn't happen.


On R/C car chargers, the operator can control the charge parameters, which can sometimes cause problems.

Got it.

Yeah, my charger is fully manual with a variable control. I can see how if you didn't know how to monitor the charger properly, you could Easily cause Big problems!

My stuff is old now. One would think the new stuff would be dialed in...

 

[77charger]

Question. When balancing, do you only connect the balance connector to the charger or do you connect the main Lipo battery connectors to the charger as well? IF you connect the main charging cords to the charger AND the balance connector then hit charge, will it automatically balance your battery while charging or does it have to be a separate balance only "charge".

To make matters worse for me, I rarely if ever have balanced.

Connect main leads then the balancer plug thingy. Then select balance and go.

 

[LazyLavey]

Geez.... California bans my favorite chapstick but hasn't banned them batteries yet? or at least restricts charging them on a windy day LOL

 

[SmilesPerGallon]

I found one on the side of the freeway while at work.... Smashed it with the excavator bucket... it fucking EXPLODED

 

[stephenkatsea]

I always do a balanced charge. If that takes too long for your needs, then buy another battery so you have a spare. I charge in the LiPo bag and store in a sealEd ammo box. At a minimum you can place the battery under an inverted clay flower pot while charging. But, the bags are better and they’re only about $8 dollars.

 

[boatnam2]

dam! I got 2 big bike batteries o leave on the charger 24/7 in the house.

 

[RiverDave]

Just to tell ya how hot this thing got when it burned these batteries were almost 2’ away and it melted all the
Note the charger in the lower pic isn’t the one that caught fire with the battery but was close enough it melted parts of it. The charger in the top pic hooked up to the lipo is the one that it was hooked too.

 

[RiverDave]

After sweeping and going over everything with a horse hair brush.. looks like I’m gonna order a new basket / repaint a wall / buy four or five new nimh batteries and another lipo with a digital charger as well as some sort of fire protection.

there are some parts of the epoxy floor that have small burn marks on them, but I think most of it will clean up with some scrubbing.

The ashes are very “heavy” and hard to sweep up. Unlike any ashes I have ever seen before and “toxic” for lack of a better term.

 

[GETBOATS]

Had a neighbors garage set on fire with an event much like this, His wife was home, only way she knew, "its a big 7000 house" was the alarm system notifying her there was a fire in the garage. ruined the garage, but FD was able to control it.

 

[guest hs]

You should be charging lipos in a lipo charging fire bag.

 

[RiverDave]

You should be charging lipos in a lipo charging fire bag.

I think big tech is tired of me educating young libs on social media and they tried to burn my shit down.

 

[mesquito_creek]

I wonder if placing the battery and charger into a metal grid/basket on five sides had anything to do with it? I am not being critical, but all I have that to compare something like that is how effective basically a metal grid design is in fully grounding an entire substation of high voltage transmission. I wonder if that had any contributing factor?
Seems to me there would be high potential for ground fault

 

[RiverDave]

I wonder if placing the battery and charger into a metal grid/basket on five sides had anything to do with it? I am not being critical, but all I have that to compare something like that is how effective basically a metal grid design is in fully grounding an entire substation of high voltage transmission. I wonder if that had any contributing factor?
Seems to me there would be high potential for ground fault

I don't think so.. I'm thinking my smart charger might have set it on an incorrect voltage and overcharged the shit out of it. Couldn't tell ya for sure, because it's all ashes now.. LOL

RD

 

[Crazyhippy]

Happened to a NASA robot too.... Robosimian was a HUGE fireball. Youtube has video

 

[monkeyswrench]

@RiverDave , do you have a smoke alarm or two in the garage? You being around realestate stuff, I don't know what year it became a thing that all living areas needed to have one. Up until now, I'd never given much thought to it, but attached garages didn't usually have them. At any given time, most of us have a lot of money sitting in our garages, tools, toys...other peoples toys. Saving the home is important, but most of us would be hosed if we had to re-buy the stuff in our garages...the wife would find out how much we had spent over years!

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

i also charge occasionally with the genset as well when I need AC on for the pups and i am gone for a while

You are still just powering the charger that regulates the power going to the batteries, so no worries.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I don't think so.. I'm thinking my smart charger might have set it on an incorrect voltage and overcharged the shit out of it. Couldn't tell ya for sure, because it's all ashes now.. LOL

RD

Did you have the balancer hooked up? Likely one of the cells got over charged, got hot and smoked the entire pack.

 

[SoCalDave]

I had some issues wkth it when I originally hooked it up to the charger when I first bought it.. but it went away.

Yeah it went away alright...

 

[WhatExit?]

I work in the LIPo battery market. There are several composition of batteries out there. Long story short you have batteries designed to pump out amps and some design to slow that down and give amp hours.

Cell phones for ex are designed to give out amp hours for long lasting use. Same with trailer batteries. Power tool batteries jump up a little bit and give more juice to run the tool but still provide a level of long use time. These above are fairly stable batteries.

Moving into car batteries such as Tesla they are providing more amps to push a heavy car very fast. But Tesla has a world class BMS battery management system to control output and charge input. There are several safety systems for Both sides in a Tesla.

Now Onto rc car batteries. These can be very dangerous because there is little to no regulation on output and input with exception to the user. Using a battery not designed for the output your demanding out of it is very bad for the battery and is how most batteries go bad and get destroyed. Also quick charging at a high amp rate is very bad too.

Lipo is the wave of the future. It’s power vs weight and price cannot be matched with any other battery tech right now.

@RiverDave what batteries were you using? What is the “C” rating and what charger and how many amps were they charged for?

What about LiFePO4 batteries? Are they dangerous too?

I'm looking at building a battery box (portable power pack) and they've been recommended.

Here's some info I found on them:

LiFePO4 batteries are available across various price points. In the end its a personal decision. Do you want raw cells and build your own, do you want a reputable brand that has an excellent warranty (like 10 years), do you want a BMS that will have the low-temperature and other protection in place etc etc etc. And what is the feedback and results of that battery in the off-grid, overland, or RV community. You can pay anywhere from $400- to a $1000 (source your own cells and BMS and build it yourself) for a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery depending upon these variables and your personal comfort level at building a battery of your own. Since I wanted a drop in LiFePO4 battery with a BMS that had a reputation of delivering on what it promised (lots of cheap and ineffective BMSs out there based on my research) I found that a Battle Born 50Ah was about $125 more than what I would have spent if I bought the cheapest battery that met what I was looking for. It was also the heaviest by anywhere from 5-8 lbs. But that was trivial in my judgement because I expect it to last, given my usage, well over a decade.

Linke to LiFePO4 batteries:

Google Search

The lithium iron phosphate battery or LFP battery, is a type of lithium-ion battery using LiFePO ₄ as the cathode material, and a graphitic carbon electrode with a metallic backing as the anode. The energy density of LiFePO ₄ is lower than that of lithium cobalt oxide chemistry, and also has a lower operating voltage.

 

[WhatExit?]

Thinking might buy one of these for my Milwaukee batteries.

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/~/media/Safety%20Notices/expanded-instructions/ExpandedInstructions.pdf

 

[TimeBandit]

I had a pretty high end scooter, think kids razor with a battery. It blew up while charging leaning against my living room wall with quite a bang.

Black dust everywhere, no fire damage to anything, it was sitting on carpet too. I had it for a few years at that point, the website was no longer active.

I tossed it into a dumpster with the charger.

 

[DILLIGAF]

You are still just powering the charger that regulates the power going to the batteries, so no worries.

so...theres a good chance I am not gonna die

 

[DILLIGAF]

Think of it this way RD....you were very lucky