Speakers pop while using trim

[Cgrohe223]

Ever since I’ve had the vector the speakers tend to pop or even shut down the 4 channel amp but not the 2 channel, I’ve checked wires at the amps and the ground/power wires from the amps at the batteries and I see no issue. Only thing I do know is that the battery being used for the ground wire is the one that the trim pump and accessories all run off of, leaning towards that but was curious to see if any one else has ran into this issue. When i wired in the stereo on my first boat I used the second battery to hook up the amps to and I never had any issues but I didn’t do the install in this boat. Picture shows the two amps under the steering wheel, only one that kind of shows the location thanks in advance.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Mine does it too. It just pops through the speakers when I hit the trim while the stereo is on. It started when I put in the digital amp. No wiring was changed from the analog to digital amp.

I found where a guy from Kicker said the fix was adding a capacitor or diode (I don't recall which) to a couple of trim control wires. I will try to find the thread as I would like to fix it on my boat as well. It was on a wakeboard or chaparral boat forum.

 

[Pivot]

Add a capacitor. Mine did it before that was added

 

[707dog]

Mine does it too. It just pops through the speakers when I hit the trim while the stereo is on. It started when I put in the digital amp. No wiring was changed from the analog to digital amp.

I found where a guy from Kicker said the fix was adding a capacitor or diode (I don't recall which) to a couple of trim control wires. I will try to find the thread as I would like to fix it on my boat as well. It was on a wakeboard or chaparral boat forum.

same issue with mine once i put the digital amp i moved grounds around still the same, please post up that info it drive me crazy

 

[Cgrohe223]

Ya I’m assuming they are digital then? They are small kicker amps and it drives me nuts cause sometimes it pops loud and sometimes it will just kill a amp and I can still hear the subs going which is the weird part. Thought I read you shouldn’t put a capacitor in a boat for what reason idk we used to use them in our trucks but maybe different for marine reasons


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sintax]

two things i'd be looking at...

1) grounding, kind of tough to isolate things in a boat, but ensure everything is properly sized and clean and properly terminated

2) shield your amp signal wires, and run them as far away from your power / ground wires as possible. EMI is real bitch!

 

[Havazoo]

Call Ron’s Audio, Havasu he’ll help you out.

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

Ground loooooopppp

 

[RiverDave]

I couldn't tell you what the solution is as I'm not a wiring guy, but I used to get a pop when I'd open the engine hatch etc.. Wired for sound fixed it in like ten minutes.

RD

 

[DaveH]

unplug the RCA input cables at the amp.

run the trim and see if the problem goes away. if ti does......that a ground loop.

you have a wiring problem. start with make sure the ground is clean and solid in the trim pump and goes directly to the battery. next, make sure your amp ground is also clean and solid going to battery negative.

then remove the ground wire from the head unit and see if that cures it.

without seeing more detailed info about how its all installed, thats all the info i can give.

just know that ground loops are very sneaky and many times the fix goes against what you would expect to do.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Here is problem that was solved with a capacitor on the trim switch. Lots of info. The capacitors in question are a couple bucks.

Need Help - Pop in Speakers - Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles - Need Help - Pop in Speakers -

www.wakeworld.com

 

[Cgrohe223]

I couldn't tell you what the solution is as I'm not a wiring guy, but I used to get a pop when I'd open the engine hatch etc.. Wired for sound fixed it in like ten minutes.

RD

Supposedly wired for sound did it a long time ago idk I just have to keep digging into it haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cgrohe223]

unplug the RCA input cables at the amp.

run the trim and see if the problem goes away. if ti does......that a ground loop.

you have a wiring problem. start with make sure the ground is clean and solid in the trim pump and goes directly to the battery. next, make sure your amp ground is also clean and solid going to battery negative.

then remove the ground wire from the head unit and see if that cures it.

without seeing more detailed info about how its all installed, thats all the info i can give.

just know that ground loops are very sneaky and many times the fix goes against what you would expect to do.

I’ve had issues with the trim pump not working I had to disconnect the plug on it and then it worked again. But I want to try the rca thing like you said cause I did read that they have special rca’s that help for this exact a reason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[whiteworks]

Don’t use the trim

 

[Cgrohe223]

Don’t use the trim[emoji6]

I usually just use the tabs haha unless it’s really glassy out then I trim up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

Shitty RCAs won't help either

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

Maybe a noise filter will help too?

 

[Cgrohe223]

Maybe a noise filter will help too?

It all looks to be done professionally but I’ll just have to start checking it all cause now it’s just getting annoying haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[240Hallett]

Don’t use the trim

...or the amp

 

[DaveH]

I’ve had issues with the trim pump not working I had to disconnect the plug on it and then it worked again. But I want to try the rca thing like you said cause I did read that they have special rca’s that help for this exact a reason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

the special RCA you are refering to isolates the ground signal theoretically breaking a ground loop. they sell a small adapter cable that plugs inline at the connection to your amp so you dont have to rewire anything....just unplug the RCA at the amp, plug the cable into the isolator, and then the isolator plugs into the amp.

if unplugging the RCA to the amp clears the issue then without a doubt its a ground loop.

interesting you have a second amp and it doesnt appear to do it. that tells me screwing around with a cap or filter at the trim pump wont solve the issuse since both amps dont do it.

BTW what brand of equipment are we talking about here? cheap stuff is much more suscpitble to this kind of thing.

 

[Shlbyntro]

My Boss equipment doesn't. But I also install a capacitor on anything over 1000w.

 

[Cgrohe223]

the special RCA you are refering to isolates the ground signal theoretically breaking a ground loop. they sell a small adapter cable that plugs inline at the connection to your amp so you dont have to rewire anything....just unplug the RCA at the amp, plug the cable into the isolator, and then the isolator plugs into the amp.

if unplugging the RCA to the amp clears the issue then without a doubt its a ground loop.

interesting you have a second amp and it doesnt appear to do it. that tells me screwing around with a cap or filter at the trim pump wont solve the issuse since both amps dont do it.

BTW what brand of equipment are we talking about here? cheap stuff is much more suscpitble to this kind of thing.

The amps are both kickers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[H2_Whoa]

As LOF mentioned, you could try a “flyback diode” across the coil of the relays / solenoids that activate your trim.

The diode should have a MINIMUM rating equivalent to the coil/solenoid (50 volt 3 amp should be OK) and connects across the coil connections with the band (stripe) of the diode connecting to the positive supply side of the coil or solenoid. The side of the diode opposing the band connects to the negative (ground) side of the coil.

Mouser 3a diode

This method is typically good for thousands of relay cycles but for extreme use, a zener diode should be added in the opposite direction.

 

[JUSTWANNARACE]

Here is problem that was solved with a capacitor on the trim switch. Lots of info. The capacitors in question are a couple bucks.

Need Help - Pop in Speakers - Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles - Need Help - Pop in Speakers -

www.wakeworld.com

Was it a capacitor or a diode? A capacitor usually stores energy sometimes separating ac from DC. And a diode is like a one way valve for electricity keeping it from creating backfired? Always curious about this stuff.

 

[Shlbyntro]

A lot of times, the flat pop (as opposed to a constant buzzing or whining) is caused by a sudden voltage dip or spike like that of what happens when a trim motor cuts in or out. By using a capacitor, especially when positioned right before the amps in the main power feed chain, you can usually isolate the amps from the voltage dips/spikes that cause the popping.

It may not be a bad idea to just isolate the stereo from the rest of the boats wiring either. On my boat, the only place my stereo system and the rest of the boats electrical cross paths is the charging system via a battery isolator and an emergency parallel battery switch.

 

[Ziggy]

Ground loooooopppp

Looped hold

 

[H2_Whoa]

Oops, I did a quick search of the thread and noticed LOF mentioned diodes and capacitors. Did not see that he later followed up with the cap solution.

A cap will dampen the spikes mostly at the amplifier which will help dramatically or even eliminate the noise. Since the caps are usually connected close to the amplifier, they might not eliminate the spikes going through the rest of the boat electronics.

A flyback diode addresses the spike at the source - when coil voltage collapses, it causes a spike.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Cgrohe223]

As LOF mentioned, you could try a “flyback diode” across the coil of the relays / solenoids that activate your trim.

The diode should have a MINIMUM rating equivalent to the coil/solenoid (50 volt 3 amp should be OK) and connects across the coil connections with the band (stripe) of the diode connecting to the positive supply side of the coil or solenoid. The side of the diode opposing the band connects to the negative (ground) side of the coil.

Mouser 3a diode

This method is typically good for thousands of relay cycles but for extreme use, a zener diode should be added in the opposite direction.

[emoji2962] hahaha sounds complicated. I’ll check once i pull the boat out again by pulling the rca’s and play with the trim then start making my way round things


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rrrr]

As LOF mentioned, you could try a “flyback diode” across the coil of the relays / solenoids that activate your trim.

The diode should have a MINIMUM rating equivalent to the coil/solenoid (50 volt 3 amp should be OK) and connects across the coil connections with the band (stripe) of the diode connecting to the positive supply side of the coil or solenoid. The side of the diode opposing the band connects to the negative (ground) side of the coil.

Mouser 3a diode

This method is typically good for thousands of relay cycles but for extreme use, a zener diode should be added in the opposite direction.

This is the correct fix.

 

[Shlbyntro]

This is the correct fix.

It's a bandaid, the correct fix is isolation.

 

[Cgrohe223]

Are you guys talking about these? And where am I putting it on the trim wires?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cgrohe223]

The main power for the amps is also connected directly to the terminal on the perco if that makes a difference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rrrr]

It's a bandaid, the correct fix is isolation.

No, it's the correct fix, because the voltage spike caused by the collapsing magnetic field in the solenoid coil is passed onto the ground system of the boat, and that noise is going to show up no matter what else is done.

Diodes are routinely installed across solenoid coils for this reason. They're standard equipment on general aviation aircraft, used to prevent noise on the radios, and for $8.50 the OP can fix the problem.

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly | Aircraft Spruce

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly This is required for all new A-510-2 and A-510-2K ignition switches for compliance with ACS Service

www.aircraftspruce.com

 

[Cgrohe223]

No, it's the correct fix, because the voltage spike caused by the collapsing magnetic field in the solenoid coil is passed onto the ground system of the boat, and that noise is going to show up no matter what else is done.

Diodes are routinely installed across solenoid coils for this reason. They're standard equipment on general aviation aircraft, used to prevent noise on the radios, and for $8.50 the OP can fix the problem.

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly | Aircraft Spruce

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly This is required for all new A-510-2 and A-510-2K ignition switches for compliance with ACS Service

www.aircraftspruce.com

So you instal that on the pump relay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shlbyntro]

No, it's the correct fix, because the voltage spike caused by the collapsing magnetic field in the solenoid coil is passed onto the ground system of the boat, and that noise is going to show up no matter what else is done.

Diodes are routinely installed across solenoid coils for this reason. They're standard equipment on general aviation aircraft, used to prevent noise on the radios, and for $8.50 the OP can fix the problem.

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly | Aircraft Spruce

ACS Starter Solenoid Diode Assembly This is required for all new A-510-2 and A-510-2K ignition switches for compliance with ACS Service

www.aircraftspruce.com

Agree to disagree

 

[rrrr]

So you instal that on the pump relay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're installed on the pump solenoids (there are two), the small ring goes on the stud that powers the coil, the big ring goes on the battery positive post of the solenoid.

As I said above, the collapsing magnetic field that occurs when the solenoid is deenergized produces a voltage spike many times the circuit voltage, i. e. several hundred volts. The diode shunts that voltage back to the battery, which absorbs it. Installing a capacitor in the amplifier circuit depends on the cap to absorb the spike, while the diode uses the battery. The diode kills the spike at the source. Obviously the battery acts as a much better "sponge", and it has the added benefit of reducing arcing damage to the trim switch contacts.

Here's a video that dicusses diode installation on an airplane master contactor (which is a solenoid device) and how it works.

 

[Cgrohe223]

They're installed on the pump solenoids (there are two), the small ring goes on the stud that powers the coil, the big ring goes on the battery.

As I said above, the collapsing magnetic field that occurs when the solenoid is deenergized produces a voltage spike about ten times the circuit voltage, i. e. about 120 volts. The diode shunts that voltage back to the battery, which absorbs it. Installing a capacitor in the circuit depends on the cap to absorb the spike, while the diode uses the battery. Obviously the battery acts as a much better "sponge", and it has the added benefit of reducing arcing damage to the trim switch contacts.

Here's a video that dicusses diode installation on an airplane master contactor (which is a solenoid device) and how it works.

I watched that video so do I need two?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rrrr]

I should add the reason why some installations have the "popping" issue, and some don't. When the voltage spike is transmitted through the wiring between the trim switch and the solenoid coil as the magnetic field collapses, if any other wiring is physically bundled or run near that wiring, the voltage spike induces a secondary voltage on that other wiring. This is the same electromagnetic principle by which transformers operate.

If the amplifier or speaker wiring is physically close enough to the trim switch wiring, when the trim pump is operated, it will induce a voltage on the amplifier or speaker wiring and cause the audible "pop". This can happen even if the wires are separated by as much as a foot or two depending on the specific situation.

I'm sure some of you think I'm making this shit up, but it's all based on the simple and verifiable truths of two things. One is that removing voltage from a coil or inductor causes a large voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses. The other is that current flowing in a circuit induces voltage on adjacent circuits. As I said, that's how transformers work.

Michael Faraday proved all of this in 1831. I'm just reporting it.

Michael Faraday is credited with discovering electromagnetic induction on August 29, 1831. ... He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire.

He experimented by wrapping two insulated coils of wire around an iron ring. He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire. The current also flowed if the loop was moved over a stationary magnet.

Changing a magnetic field produces an electric field. This became Faraday's Law when it was modeled mathematically by James Clerk Maxwell. Faraday's Law became one of Maxwell’s equations, which have since evolved into field theory.

Faraday would later use the principles to construct the electric dynamo. The principles of electromagnetic induction are used in many applications, such as inductive charging, transformers, electric motors, and generators.

https://www.edn.com/faraday-discovers-electromagnetic-induction-august-29-1831/

 

[rrrr]

I watched that video so do I need two?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, there are two solenoids on the pump, one up and one down. This isn't complicated, you can install the diodes in a few minutes.

The solenoids are on either side of the pump motor. The diodes go between the large red and small blue wire on the top left side, and the large red and small green wire on the top right side.

 

[Cgrohe223]

I should add the reason why some installations have the "popping" issue, and some don't. When the voltage spike is transmitted through the wiring between the trim switch and the solenoid coil when the magnetic field collapses, if any other wiring is physically bundled or run near that wiring, the voltage spike induces a secondary voltage on that other wiring. This is the same electromagnetic principle by which transformers operate.

If the speaker wiring is physically close enough to the trim switch wiring, when the trim pump is operated, it will induce a voltage on the speaker wiring and cause the "pop". This can happen even if the wires are separated by as much as a foot or two depending on the specific situation.

I'm sure some of you think I'm making this shit up, but it's all based on the simple and verifiable truths of two things. One is that removing voltage from a coil or inductor causes a large voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses. The other is that current flowing in a circuit induces voltage on adjacent circuits. As I said, that's how transformers work.

Michael Faraday proved all of this in 1831. I'm just reporting it.

Michael Faraday is credited with discovering electromagnetic induction on August 29, 1831. ... He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire.

He experimented by wrapping two insulated coils of wire around an iron ring. He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire. The current also flowed if the loop was moved over a stationary magnet.

Changing a magnetic field produces an electric field. This became Faraday's Law when it was modeled mathematically by James Clerk Maxwell. Faraday's Law became one of Maxwell’s equations, which have since evolved into field theory.

Faraday would later use the principles to construct the electric dynamo. The principles of electromagnetic induction are used in many applications, such as inductive charging, transformers, electric motors, and generators.

https://www.edn.com/faraday-discovers-electromagnetic-induction-august-29-1831/

I’ll pull the panel and show you guys how everything is ran nothing looks really close


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rrrr]

You have to be aware any wiring common to the trim switch power source and amplifier power source can be the cause of the problem.

The bottom line is that a voltage spike is causing the "pop", and the diodes will cancel the spike. You don't have to wonder and search where the commonality is between the amplifiers and the pump is, just install the diodes and the problem will go away.

 

[Cgrohe223]

You have to be aware any wiring common to the trim switch power source and amplifier power source can be the cause of the problem.

The bottom line is that a voltage spike is causing the "pop", and the diodes will cancel the spike. You don't have to wonder and search where the commonality is between the amplifiers and the pump is, just install the diodes and the problem will go away.

Ya i understand it all I watched a bunch of videos just curious as to where they go I’ll have to check the pump


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[24 Sleekenforcer]

Transient voltage .

 

[Shlbyntro]

I should add the reason why some installations have the "popping" issue, and some don't. When the voltage spike is transmitted through the wiring between the trim switch and the solenoid coil as the magnetic field collapses, if any other wiring is physically bundled or run near that wiring, the voltage spike induces a secondary voltage on that other wiring. This is the same electromagnetic principle by which transformers operate.

If the amplifier or speaker wiring is physically close enough to the trim switch wiring, when the trim pump is operated, it will induce a voltage on the amplifier or speaker wiring and cause the audible "pop". This can happen even if the wires are separated by as much as a foot or two depending on the specific situation.

I'm sure some of you think I'm making this shit up, but it's all based on the simple and verifiable truths of two things. One is that removing voltage from a coil or inductor causes a large voltage spike as the magnetic field collapses. The other is that current flowing in a circuit induces voltage on adjacent circuits. As I said, that's how transformers work.

Michael Faraday proved all of this in 1831. I'm just reporting it.

Michael Faraday is credited with discovering electromagnetic induction on August 29, 1831. ... He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire.

He experimented by wrapping two insulated coils of wire around an iron ring. He found that, upon passing a current through one coil, a momentary current was induced in the other coil— mutual induction. If he moved a magnet through a loop of wire, an electric current flowed in that wire. The current also flowed if the loop was moved over a stationary magnet.

Changing a magnetic field produces an electric field. This became Faraday's Law when it was modeled mathematically by James Clerk Maxwell. Faraday's Law became one of Maxwell’s equations, which have since evolved into field theory.

Faraday would later use the principles to construct the electric dynamo. The principles of electromagnetic induction are used in many applications, such as inductive charging, transformers, electric motors, and generators.

https://www.edn.com/faraday-discovers-electromagnetic-induction-august-29-1831/

I dont think you're making it up. I know it to be the basic principals of electricity, I just disagree on what the proper fix is. To me it is a bandaid that is merely suppressing an underlying condition and not actually addressing it. I prefer a capacitor and circuit isolation all be it, a more labor intensive fix but it is the proper way to wire a stereo from the get go vs chasing solenoids and other systems that are creating voltage spikes and dips.

 

[DaveH]

i agree a voltage spike could be the issue. but the OP reported only one of his amps is doing it which i find odd.

 

[rrrr]

To me it is a bandaid that is merely suppressing an underlying condition and not actually addressing it.

C'mon...really? It's not an "underlying condition", the voltage spike is the cause of the problem. Using a diode to eliminate the spike isn't a "bandaid", it is the solution to the issue applied at the source.

In this case, there's nothing to "chase". When the OP releases his trim switch, it causes noise on his stereo. What's the noise? A voltage spike. What caused it? The trim pump solenoid coil magnetic field collapse. How do you fix it? Place a diode in the circuit to shunt the voltage away.

Installing a diode in a solenoid circuit is a well known cure for electrical noise issues. If you would like to learn more, read this.

Using Flyback Diodes in Relays Prevents Electrical Noise in Your Circuits

What is a flyback diode, and how does a flyback diode protect a circuit? When used properly, flyback diodes can reduce electrical noise and prevent flyback voltages from building up.

resources.altium.com

 

[Cgrohe223]

Talked with one of the tech guys from work he said he would try moving the ground cable from the amps since I told him they ran the negative wire from the amps to the main battery that uses the trim pump and all the accessories to the secondary battery or try a noise filter on the stereo. So I’m thinking bout moving the ground wire to the other side even with a temporary jumper wire and see what it does. When I wired my old boat I used the battery that didn’t have all the accessories n trim pump so I’m hoping this works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cgrohe223]

Also thinking about it I’ve never checked to see where the stereo itself is getting power, pulling the boat out next week so I’ll start digging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shlbyntro]

C'mon...really? It's not an "underlying condition", the voltage spike is the cause of the problem. Using a diode to eliminate the spike isn't a "bandaid", it is the solution to the issue applied at the source.

In this case, there's nothing to "chase". When the OP releases his trim switch, it causes noise on his stereo. What's the noise? A voltage spike. What caused it? The trim pump solenoid coil magnetic field collapse. How do you fix it? Place a diode in the circuit to shunt the voltage away.

Installing a diode in a solenoid circuit is a well known cure for electrical noise issues. If you would like to learn more, read this.

Using Flyback Diodes in Relays Prevents Electrical Noise in Your Circuits

What is a flyback diode, and how does a flyback diode protect a circuit? When used properly, flyback diodes can reduce electrical noise and prevent flyback voltages from building up.

resources.altium.com

Yes. I really believe a proper multi amp stereo install should be isolated with a capacitor. In addition to solving this issue, It would also solve a multitude of other problems, such as accidentally draining your batteries with your stereo in the cove. A proper install works with lower cost components as well as the high dollar ones without the need for ground loop isolators and diodes mounted to all of your electro magnetic components throughout the rest of the boat.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

FWIW mine only pops when letting OFF the trim switch.