Speed UTV take 3

[rivermobster]

You don’t need power windows or power steering in your car either but it’s nice when you do lol

Yeah well, I can tell you this much...

There is Nothing nice about them, when they are dirty (which is almost Always) and you're headed into the sun at the end of the day.

Maybe someday when they make tear offs for them, I could see having a windshield.

Muddy trails are fun as well!

 

[Fishd00d]

Personally I hate windshields as well in a SXS or buggy. The reverse vortex sucks, they make it way hot inside, the dust sticks to them all day, they get fogged up easily at night/early morning. Helmet and pumper FTW!

 

[Albacore]

LOL! Over 50 cars delivered this weekend and only pictures are River Dave's and few of people with them on trailers. You would think after waiting several years for delivery they would all be posting pictures and taking them for rides.

They’re out there you just got a look like all the other stuff we keep explaining to everybody on here

this guys already had two days Running at Johnson Valley Owenr is super happy says he has not a single complaint

 

[MonkeyButt70]

Personally I hate windshields as well in a SXS or buggy. The reverse vortex sucks, they make it way hot inside, the dust sticks to them all day, they get fogged up easily at night/early morning. Helmet and pumper FTW!

I agree windshields take away from the experience, too many downsides to having one.

 

[PlanB]

The only downside to the windshield in my Can-Am is the heat issue on warm days, but I left the bottom open so I get some airflow, but it still gets warm. I would not own another SXS without one though. In Havasu where we drive these things on the streets, the windshield makes driving at speed much more enjoyable.

 

[Albacore]

LOF when you coming back? What master number were you?Come join us the on the speed uTV .net site

 

[dirtslinger2]

Dave, when I was out the sand show Willwood brakes had the larger braking system at their booth and said they will be selling it for quite a bit less than what Robbie wants for it and in fact there words were he’s making it un affordable might wanna look into it although I would make sure you have the newer break compound pads before you do anything else it has been said that they are supposed to be coming with the cars but maybe not the batch of cars you were in at least that’s what I hope Hope.

The brakes are not good, they're manageable, and will stop the car just fine, but they "SHOULD" be better.

 

[PlanB]

Is it possible that the pads need to be broken in? My Can-Am out of the box had sketchy brakes but they got better with some miles on them.

 

[sandshark1]

Is it possible that the pads need to be broken in? My Can-Am out of the box had sketchy brakes but they got better with some miles on them.

Can am X3 brakes get marginally better. They have a mushy feel, but will stop you.

 

[rivermobster]

Can am X3 brakes get marginally better. They have a mushy feel, but will stop you.

Time for some stainless brake hoses maybe?

HoseMan can custom make them if you ask nicely. They made me some for my Harley. No more squishy feeling.

 

[Fabhouse]

Time for some stainless brake hoses maybe?

HoseMan can custom make them if you ask nicely. They made me some for my Harley. No more squishy feeling.

Good start-
Two things here- how does it stop, and how does the pedal feel while stopping.
@lbhsbz can fill in the tech section, but here's the basics.

How does it stop-
Is there enough friction between pad and rotor, without killing the rotor or overheating parts.
Is there enough pressure applied to achieve above statement.
Is the clamping surface large enough to dissipate the heat expended during this action.
Is the clamping surface large enough to effectively control the inertia of the vehicle.

How does it feel-
Length and type of brake line-rubber is fine for short lines, not great for long lines.
Master dia. vs caliper volume. These need to be matched, with in reason.

Big one-Caliper flex. They all do, but how much.
No matter how good the rest of your stuff is, if you can input 1800psi, (brake line pressure) but your caliper flexes at 1200psi, you have a rising pressure graph, with a static braking force graph.

 

[lbhsbz]

Good start-
Two things here- how does it stop, and how does the pedal feel while stopping.
@lbhsbz can fill in the tech section, but here's the basics.

How does it stop-
Is there enough friction between pad and rotor, without killing the rotor or overheating parts.
Is there enough pressure applied to achieve above statement.
Is the clamping surface large enough to dissipate the heat expended during this action.
Is the clamping surface large enough to effectively control the inertia of the vehicle.

How does it feel-
Length and type of brake line-rubber is fine for short lines, not great for long lines.
Master dia. vs caliper volume. These need to be matched, with in reason.

Big one-Caliper flex. They all do, but how much.
No matter how good the rest of your stuff is, if you can input 1800psi, (brake line pressure) but your caliper flexes at 1200psi, you have a rising pressure graph, with a static braking force graph.

I do SS lines...I can make whatever as long as I have a sample to work from.

 

[Fishd00d]

Who was it that told you that? Reason I ask is I’ve talked with Mike multiple times and he’s said that the Wilwood’s deal is that only RG can sell them. RG also has the same deal with Rugged as well. Both companies help with my vehicles tremendously and I’ve been told by both that getting parts from them is a big no no.

When you are ready to step up to high quality coms lemme know

 

[AiiRaciing]

When you are ready to step up to high quality coms lemme know

Come on Fish, how many people have I know that have worked there over the years and have Everyone has told me no deals whatsoever

Oh and EVERYONE at Rugged runs my mufflers

 

[951prerun]

They are stainless flexible brake lines. It helps if you seat the pads. It’s got a solid pedal feel but just doesn’t seem to bite as good as you want. They are not horrible and not amazing in my opinion. I already called willwood and tried to piece the kit together which should cost ~$2,500 but they will not sell the caliper brackets. According to speed all the brake components come from willwood.

 

[Outdrive1]

Who was it that told you that? Reason I ask is I’ve talked with Mike multiple times(SEMA and SSSS) and he’s said that the Wilwood’s deal is that only RG can sell them. RG also has the same deal with Rugged as well. Both companies help with my vehicles tremendously and I’ve been told by both that getting parts from them is a big no no.

So if you buy a Speed car, Rugged can’t sell you a radio? I’m guessing the faceplate maybe, but how would they know what you’re buying a radio for?

 

[AiiRaciing]

So if you buy a Speed car, Rugged can’t sell you a radio? I’m guessing the faceplate maybe, but how would they know what you’re buying a radio for?

That’s correct. RG wouldn’t know if I made my own mounts, what they can’t do is sell a “kit” for the Speed Car

 

[Outdrive1]

That’s correct. RG wouldn’t know if I made my own mounts, what they can’t do is sell a “kit” for the Speed Car

Ok that makes sense.

 

[Fishd00d]

Come on Fish, how many people have I know that have worked there over the years and have Everyone has told me no deals whatsoever

Oh and EVERYONE at Rugged runs my mufflers

So because they wont give you a free one you dont want it? lol

 

[AiiRaciing]

So because they wont give you a free one you dont want it? lol

I didn’t say free, I said deals fucker

 

[brecht]

Dude has a little bar in the middle of no where...nobody goes there looking for gourmet pizza...most people that go there are just going to drink beers...a warmed up frozen pizza is just a bonus....what are people gonna complain about next, the hotdogs are from a package?

Man they've been salty for years. Who remembers that old hag that would slam that wood shack window closed after you ordered food like 20 years ago? We called her the soup nazi from Seinfeld

 

[Fishd00d]

I didn’t say free, I said deals fucker

Talk to me when ya need something haha.

 

[Albacore]

I am sure RD is going to love that plug

I’m only saying that if he’s not allowed on this one, I’m not sure what conversations ever took place or penalties for that matter. The cars are out and it’s happening like Dave said mabey they should slow it down even until they can get more employees and deal with 70 to a 100 a week but progress is happening and i would like to see what he has to say.

 

[Albacore]

Who was it that told you that? Reason I ask is I’ve talked with Mike multiple times(SEMA and SSSS) and he’s said that the Wilwood’s deal is that only RG can sell them. RG also has the same deal with Rugged as well. Both companies help with my vehicles tremendously and I’ve been told by both that getting parts from them is a big no no.

I didnot ask his name nor did I get a business card as my Diablo is still six or eight months out but here are the photos. The guy said it would be $1000 less for the same, set up with six piston calipers. They even had Speed car 127 in the booth.

 

[Albacore]

That’s correct. RG wouldn’t know if I made my own mounts, what they can’t do is sell a “kit” for the Speed Car

I agree I was told the same thing a year and a half ago so I bought everything and cut my own piece of aluminum and will mount and will cut it to the shape of the dash size when I get my car. Mabey It’s the same situation with the brakes but they did not make it sound that way just three days ago.

 

[lbhsbz]

I did not ask her name nor did I get a business card as my Diablo is still six or eight months out but here are the photos we took and I spent some time with us. The guy said it would be $1000 less for the same, set up with six piston calipers. They even had Speed car 127 in the booth.

OK...First off, Wilwood is kinda famous for making bling that doesn't work for shit. Forget the number of pistons...that doesn't make any difference. Look at your total piston surface area on one side of the caliper for a fixed mount caliper, or total piston surface area for a floating caliper. Then determine your effective radius....the distance between the spindle center and the middle of pad contact patch on the rotor. Example...if we have a 10" rotor with a 2" pad annulus, our effective radius is 4".

Increasing that effective radius will increase brake torque. There are creative ways to do this....we can actually remove material from the pad nearest the hub and that moves the centerline outwards, increasing the effective radius. Pad life will decrease, but torque will increase. Increasing the pad size or adding pistons while keeping the surface area the same doesn't really do shit except increase pad life. More pistons are beneficial if they allow for the caliper to have better structure and support, or less flex for the same amount of clamp force (piston surface area). Example...most domestic junk used to have big ass single piston calipers with 3" or bigger pistons. That put the center of thrust (for lack of better term) half the piston diameter plus 1/2" or so from the "bridge" to the outer part of the caliper. If we go to 2 smaller pistons having the same surface area as the single larger one, the center point of the pistons are much closer to the "bridge"....sort of like a C-clamp with a 4" throat flexing open while a C-clamp with a 2" throat won't flex as much...This also allows you to increase the effective radius while running a smaller pad annulus in the same, or some cases smaller package. More often than not in fixed calipers...adding more pistons makes for a larger span between points of structure, and makes for more flex...but piston sizing (more smaller ones) will reduce the forces involved...it's a balancing act. Stoptech calipers were about the stiffest on the market...wilwoods were not even something we considered testing....they are extremely lightweight with no structural bridge in the center. Some brembos didn't have a structural bridge either, but the caliper bodies were beefy so that sort of made up for it. Not real in tune with what wilwood is doing now and don't really care....I spoke with them at SEMA (one of my old coworkers is a big somebody over there now) and the fucker seemed interested but now won't give me the time of day. Also, their customer service sucks, so fuck them.

Changing piston surface area fucks up the bias and might not work right with the stock master cylinder. Everything is sized so that it all works reasonably well together....going to a larger caliper piston surface area will result in a softer, lower pedal but more clamp force for a given pedal effort. Going to a smaller caliper piston surface will result in less clamp force with a firmer higher pedal. Ideally, we shrink the pistons by XX percent while also increasing the effective radius by XX percent, resulting in the same level of torque on paper, but with a much more confidence inspiring pedal and more heat capacity in the rotor...and since the pistons are smaller, caliper flex is less.

The problem with that is packaging....can't fit big brakes under small wheels.

I would probably start with seeing what's moving to much...pedal flex? Master cylinder flex on where ever it's mounted? Are the wheel bearings / uprights rigid enough where we're not getting rotor deflection? Brake pad compression? Most everything can be improved a wee bit in most cases...and it may all result in impressive gains.
I might be interested in trying some of our more aggressive automotive friction materials on these things to see what happens. Who knows what they're using at the OE level.

 

[rivrrts429]

Yeah well, I can tell you this much...

There is Nothing nice about them, when they are dirty (which is almost Always) and you're headed into the sun at the end of the day.

Maybe someday when they make tear offs for them, I could see having a windshield.

Muddy trails are fun as well!

For the record I’m not a fan of windshields either. Have never ran one on my SxS’s.

 

[throttle]

Slightly confused, but for help in clarification maybe... I know Rugged is and has been designing, cutting, bending, powder-coating face plates (mounting brackets) for Speedutv, they even pre assemble the radio, intercom and rocker switches. Are they sending to RG for install and sales? Does not look like the item/product is available online. Rugged does have other mounting solutions for other vehicles available online, just not Speed.
@AiiRaciing

 

[DWC]

I’ll make a real video tomorrow with more information

What night is the party?

 

[Albacore]

OK...First off, Wilwood is kinda famous for making bling that doesn't work for shit. Forget the number of pistons...that doesn't make any difference. Look at your total piston surface area on one side of the caliper for a fixed mount caliper, or total piston surface area for a floating caliper. Then determine your effective radius....the distance between the spindle center and the middle of pad contact patch on the rotor. Example...if we have a 10" rotor with a 2" pad annulus, our effective radius is 4".

Increasing that effective radius with increase brake torque. There are creative ways to do this....we can actually remove material from the pad nearest the hub and that moves the centerline outwards, increasing the effective radius. Pad life will decrease, but torque will increase. Increasing the pad size or adding pistons while keeping the surface area the same doesn't really do shit except increase pad life. More pistons are beneficial if they allow for the caliper to have better structure and support, or less flex for the same amount of clamp force (piston surface area). More often than not...adding more pistons makes for a larger span between points of structure, and makes for more flex.

Changing piston surface area fucks up the bias and might not work right with the stock master cylinder. Everything is sized so that it all works reasonably well together....going to a larger caliper piston surface area will result in a softer, lower pedal but more clamp force for a given pedal effort. Going to a smaller caliper piston surface will result in less clamp force with a firmer higher pedal. Ideally, we shrink the pistons by XX percent while also increasing the effective radius by XX percent, resulting in the same level of torque on paper, but with a much more confidence inspiring pedal and more heat capacity in the rotor...and since the pistons are smaller, caliper flex is less.

The problem with that is packaging....can't fit big brakes under small wheels.

I would probably start with seeing what's moving to much...pedal flex? Master cylinder flex on where ever it's mounted? Are the wheel bearings / uprights rigid enough where we're not getting rotor deflection? Brake pad compression? Most everything can be improved a wee bit in most cases...and it may all result in impressive gains.
I might be interested in trying some of our more aggressive automotive friction materials on these things to see what happens. Who knows what they're using at the OE level.

Well, if I had one, I would come talk to you, but I am 6 to 8 months out like I said earlier hopefully some of the other people will figure this out long before I get mine. Sounds like you have some good ideas.

 

[lbhsbz]

Well, if I had one, I would come talk to you, but I am 6 to 8 months out like I said earlier hopefully some of the other people will figure this out long before I get mine. Sounds like you have some good ideas.

All it takes is money

 

[Fishd00d]

My Pro R stops on a dime even with all the shit ive added to it weight wise. Maybe just bolt some Pro R calipers and rotors on your Speeds lol

 

[Justsomeguy]

Dave on the Wilwood kit I will get you my cost on it. Or ask a friend for a hook up because you are Riverdave.

What a stand up guy! How long will it take? I assume 2 weeks?

 

[bonesfab]

What a stand up guy! How long will it take? I assume 2 weeks?

They probably have them in stock. 1-2 days Probably.

 

[HNL2LHC]

What night is the party?

Where is the sign up sheet or will it be a highbrow event with invitations and black tie? I can fit either or types @RiverDave

 

[sandshark1]

My Pro R stops on a dime even with all the shit ive added to it weight wise. Maybe just bolt some Pro R calipers and rotors on your Speeds lol

When you drove the Maverick R how did those brakes feel?

 

[Fishd00d]

When you drove the Maverick R how did those brakes feel?

I have not driven one yet. Soon hopefully, maybe next week in sand hollow.

 

[bonesfab]

I appreciate that I might take ya up on that!

Well I called them and they said are propriatary for Speed. So I might be shit outaluck

 

[Bpracing1127]

I wonder if all the patents will be a bad thing for the speed car. Can’t have aftermarket parts to fix little issues or just upgrade because everyone likes doing that.

 

[Singleton]

I wonder if all the patents will be a bad thing for the speed car. Can’t have aftermarket parts to fix little issues or just upgrade because everyone likes doing that.

Or RG licenses the patents to those companies and gets $$ when others fix issues

 

[4Waters]

I wonder if all the patents will be a bad thing for the speed car. Can’t have aftermarket parts to fix little issues or just upgrade because everyone likes doing that.

Bear, brembo, ebc will see this opening and build a kit

 

[Bajap1]

Car look great, congrats to RD and all who got theirs delivered

 

[rivrrts429]

I wonder if all the patents will be a bad thing for the speed car. Can’t have aftermarket parts to fix little issues or just upgrade because everyone likes doing that.

Or RG licenses the patents to those companies and gets $$ when others fix issues

This ^^^

From a business model aspect this is how you do it. Speeds competitors would jump at the opportunity to have this revenue vertical as part of their business plan.

Parts sales after the vehicle sale is the gift that keeps on giving if you can swing it.

Polaris’ aftermarket is a cash cow that drives top line revenue straight to the bottom line. Literally nothing but your branding and you can charge a premium.

All manufacturers target some version of it but RG has managed, so far, to capture it in a much broader focused way.

 

[grumpy88]

This ^^^

From a business model aspect this is how you do it. Speeds competitors would jump at the opportunity to have this revenue vertical as part of their business plan.

Parts sales after the vehicle sale is the gift that keeps on giving if you can swing it.

Polaris’ aftermarket is a cash cow that drives top line revenue straight to the bottom line. Literally nothing but your branding and you can charge a premium.

All manufacturers target some version of it but RG has managed, so far, to capture it in a much broader focused way.

Except his back end revenue is on what , 1000 vehicles ? Polaris sells 10 times that . 1 more reason not to buy his sxs and i like the speed car .

 

[rivrrts429]

Except his back end revenue is on what , 1000 vehicles ? Polaris sells 10 times that . 1 more reason not to buy his sxs and i like the speed car .

You’re not wrong. I don’t disagree. It’s a risk for sure but if this car goes in the direction intended it’s a solid business move.

I don’t wish any ill will on anyone trying to capitalize on capitalism.

 

[sandshark1]

This ^^^

From a business model aspect this is how you do it. Speeds competitors would jump at the opportunity to have this revenue vertical as part of their business plan.

Parts sales after the vehicle sale is the gift that keeps on giving if you can swing it.

Polaris’ aftermarket is a cash cow that drives top line revenue straight to the bottom line. Literally nothing but your branding and you can charge a premium.

All manufacturers target some version of it but RG has managed, so far, to capture it in a much broader focused way.

Polaris owns some of the aftermarket companies - Pro Armor and there is at least one or two others.

The OEMs make a shit ton of money selling their line of accessories as is RG and Speed.

What you will see happen with Speed is what happened with the Wildcat XX. You will have aftermarket companies provide the usually easy accessories - mirrors, bags, storage for the bed or anything that crossovers fit wise to other OEMS. The rest of the stuff you might see some do a few small things, but they will wait and see how many units sell after the initial direct deposit holders cars are delivered. Kind of hard for the aftermarket companies to do much when they can't get their hands on a Speed UTV. Nick has a leg up as he owns one.

Can Am, Polaris, Yamaha, and the rest usually provide pre-production units to a select few aftermarket companies so they can get some products developed.

 

[rivermobster]

Except his back end revenue is on what , 1000 vehicles ? Polaris sells 10 times that . 1 more reason not to buy his sxs and i like the speed car .

My thoughts as well.

And is Gordon gonna sue anyone that Tries to development something?

Good grief.

 

[beerrun]

My thoughts as well.

And is Gordon gonna sue anyone that Tries to development something?

Good grief.

You know he will

 

[Bigbore500r]

My thoughts as well.

And is Gordon gonna sue anyone that Tries to development something?

Good grief.

At a minimum, he will make a video bashing them

 

[sandshark1]

My thoughts as well.

And is Gordon gonna sue anyone that Tries to development something?

Good grief.

If they make suspension components or things to beef up the frame he would not be happy.